Where are the amps?!? - aka, beating a dead horse

[tenorkeith]

At the risk of being pummeled for this, I would like to ask why we haven't had any new amps or effects in the last five months.

 

According to Line 6, it takes approximately one month for the one guy (!) who does the amp modeling to produce one amp model. So according to their own estimate, we should be able to expect at least another five amps by now.

 

Add to this the fact that the largest request on Ideascale is for more amps and effects, and I wonder if Line 6 is listening. The Helix is generally thought to be a direct competitor for Fractal and Kemper, and in this respect, they are way behind.

 

Now, before the flames begin to fly, let me say that I absolutely LOVE my Helix, and I even gave up my place in line for the Fractal AX8 so that I could buy the Helix. So I'm not trying to be excessively critical. But there are some glaring omissions in the amp list, and I thought they would have addressed this by now.

 

Oh, and I would appreciate people refraining from telling me to "Just shut up and just enjoy what you have". I AM enjoying it, but I believe that there were some definite promises made, and I want to believe they will follow through.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect 200 amps or anything of the sort. But I do expect more, and I just wish they would spend as much time on these items as they do on bug fixes and editing software.

 

End of rant.

[Inerzia]

Well, I just gave your comment a positive point or whatever they're called, not because I agree with all you say, but because I didn't agree with the guy who downvoted it. 
I don't think it's fair to punish you for expressing your oppinion in a civilized way. 

I personally welcome anything they add to the lists of amps, effects and features, and I also think there's room for a lot of good stuff in there, some simpler some more complicated to implement, but I let them follow their path. I mean, I'm sure they're working on Helix as we speak (it's their flagship product, no less) but maybe not as quickly as our GAS demands :D

[Digital_Igloo]

We're working on stuff.

[tenorkeith]

Inerzia, thank you for your measured response.

 

To be honest, I don't care if people vote me down, I just wanted to express my frustration in an honest way. The issue I have is that Line 6, with the backing of Yamaha, has the resources to really propel this product to great heights. But what I see is smaller companies such as Fractal, Kemper and Atomic doing better by way of updates.

 

Truth is, some people are happy with just a few great amps to work with, and some of us think differently. And I don't feel badly about holding Line 6's collective feet to the fire on this.

[duncann]

What do you mean by stuff?

 

noun

1. the material of which anything is made: a hard, crystalline stuff.

2. material to be worked upon or to be used in making something: wood, steel, and other stuff for building.

3. material of some unspecified kind: a cushion filled with some soft stuff.

4. Chiefly British. woven material or fabric, especially wool.

5. property, as personal belongings or equipment; things.

6. something to be swallowed, as food, drink, or medicine.

7. inward character, qualities, or capabilities: to have good stuff in one.

8. Informal. action or talk of a particular kind: kid stuff; Cut out the rough stuff.

9. worthless things or matter: to clean the stuff out of a closet. Synonyms: junk, debris, litter; refuse, waste, rubbish, trash.

10. worthless or foolish ideas, talk, or writing: a lot of stuff and nonsense. Synonyms: blather, gibberish, rigmarole, nonsense, twaddle, claptrap, balderdash.

11. Sports.

1. Baseball. the assortment of pitches that a pitcher uses in a game together with the ability to deliver them in the proper manner at the right speed to the desired spot:
   He saved his best stuff for the tougher hitters in the lineup.
2. spin or speed imparted to a ball, as by a baseball pitcher, a bowler, or a tennis player:
   a pitch with plenty of stuff.

12. Informal. journalistic, literary, artistic, dramatic, musical, or other compositions or performances: Bach composed some splendid stuff.

13. Informal. one's trade, skill, field, facts, etc.: She knows her stuff.

14. Slang. any kind of drug, especially an illicit one.

15. Also called stock. Papermaking. refined and beaten wet pulp ready for spreading on the wire.

[HonestOpinion]

 

What do you mean by stuff?

 

noun

1. the material of which anything is made: a hard, crystalline stuff.

2. material to be worked upon or to be used in making something: wood, steel, and other stuff for building.

3. material of some unspecified kind: a cushion filled with some soft stuff.

4. Chiefly British. woven material or fabric, especially wool.

5. property, as personal belongings or equipment; things.

6. something to be swallowed, as food, drink, or medicine.

7. inward character, qualities, or capabilities: to have good stuff in one.

8. Informal. action or talk of a particular kind: kid stuff; Cut out the rough stuff.

9. worthless things or matter: to clean the stuff out of a closet. Synonyms: junk, debris, litter; refuse, waste, rubbish, trash.

10. worthless or foolish ideas, talk, or writing: a lot of stuff and nonsense. Synonyms: blather, gibberish, rigmarole, nonsense, twaddle, claptrap, balderdash.

11. Sports.

1. Baseball. the assortment of pitches that a pitcher uses in a game together with the ability to deliver them in the proper manner at the right speed to the desired spot:
   He saved his best stuff for the tougher hitters in the lineup.
2. spin or speed imparted to a ball, as by a baseball pitcher, a bowler, or a tennis player:
   a pitch with plenty of stuff.

12. Informal. journalistic, literary, artistic, dramatic, musical, or other compositions or performances: Bach composed some splendid stuff.

13. Informal. one's trade, skill, field, facts, etc.: She knows her stuff.

14. Slang. any kind of drug, especially an illicit one.

15. Also called stock. Papermaking. refined and beaten wet pulp ready for spreading on the wire.

 

 

LOL. What he means by "stuff" is things that may or may not pertain to the Helix to be delivered in a temporal milieu as yet to be revealed. And yet, somehow my spirits and hopes are bolstered.  ;)  

[phil_m]

 

What do you mean by stuff?

 

noun

1. the material of which anything is made: a hard, crystalline stuff.

2. material to be worked upon or to be used in making something: wood, steel, and other stuff for building.

3. material of some unspecified kind: a cushion filled with some soft stuff.

4. Chiefly British. woven material or fabric, especially wool.

5. property, as personal belongings or equipment; things.

6. something to be swallowed, as food, drink, or medicine.

7. inward character, qualities, or capabilities: to have good stuff in one.

8. Informal. action or talk of a particular kind: kid stuff; Cut out the rough stuff.

9. worthless things or matter: to clean the stuff out of a closet. Synonyms: junk, debris, litter; refuse, waste, rubbish, trash.

10. worthless or foolish ideas, talk, or writing: a lot of stuff and nonsense. Synonyms: blather, gibberish, rigmarole, nonsense, twaddle, claptrap, balderdash.

11. Sports.

1. Baseball. the assortment of pitches that a pitcher uses in a game together with the ability to deliver them in the proper manner at the right speed to the desired spot:
   He saved his best stuff for the tougher hitters in the lineup.
2. spin or speed imparted to a ball, as by a baseball pitcher, a bowler, or a tennis player:
   a pitch with plenty of stuff.

12. Informal. journalistic, literary, artistic, dramatic, musical, or other compositions or performances: Bach composed some splendid stuff.

13. Informal. one's trade, skill, field, facts, etc.: She knows her stuff.

14. Slang. any kind of drug, especially an illicit one.

15. Also called stock. Papermaking. refined and beaten wet pulp ready for spreading on the wire.

 

 

[nippyjun]

What tone can you not create with all the amps/cabs/ ir's we have access to now?

 

Just curious.

[DunedinDragon]

I understand what the OP means.

 

It's so frustrating having to wait for STUFF.....after all 5 months is almost a LIFETIME!!!  We want it NOW!!!  (insert sound of stomping feet and tantrum throwing).....

 

It almost killed me to wait a whole 9 months for a baby to be ready.  Next time I'll use two women and have a baby in 4 1/2 months!!!

 

Or maybe next time when I bake a cake I'll turn the oven up to 700 degrees so I can have it in half the time!!!!

[tenorkeith]

Well, to be specific, I am a big fan of the Mesa Mk IIC+, Mk IV, and the Bogner Ecstasy to name a few.

I don't need multiple versions of every amp ever made like Fractal does, I just would like more bases covered. As I said earlier, I love my Helix, which is why I want it to be the best it can be.

[tenorkeith]

I understand what the OP means.

 

It's so frustrating having to wait for STUFF.....after all 5 months is almost a LIFETIME!!!  We want it NOW!!!  (insert sound of stomping feet and tantrum throwing).....

 

It almost killed me to wait a whole 9 months for a baby to be ready.  Next time I'll use two women and have a baby in 4 1/2 months!!!

 

Or maybe next time when I bake a cake I'll turn the oven up to 700 degrees so I can have it in half the time!!!!

That's cute, Dunedin. But it sounds an awful lot like the "STFU and take what they give you!" mentality I've been witnessing lately.

Thanks for the sarcasm, though!

[DunedinDragon]

That's cute, Dunedin. But it sounds an awful lot like the "STFU and take what they give you!" mentality I've been witnessing lately.

Thanks for the sarcasm, though!

 

Nah...it's really not a "take what they give you" response.  It is a reminder that good things take time.  I'm pretty sure L6 is well aware of user's anticipating new amps, as they are some key bugs that really need to get addressed.  They're also a substantial enough company to understand how important the quality of what they issue will be on the reputation of both the company and the product.

 

You don't have to research very far to hear complaints about the quality variance in many of the amp models in both the Kemper and the AxeFX.  This is exactly what happens when you elect to produce quantity over quality.  I wouldn't mind some additional amps and effects, but I'm not willing to have them at the cost of them being less than stellar implementations just to be able to say they have them.

 

L6 established a pretty high level of quality in all their implementations on the Helix.  I very much want to see that maintained even if it's at the cost a less amps and a little more time.

 

If you need any reminders of how bad things can be when you sacrifice quality for getting something shipped out the door, I'll point you to the releases of Windows Vista and Windows 8 as vivid reminders of the price one pays for such fiasco's.

[ChubbyJerk]

I understand what the OP means.

 

It's so frustrating having to wait for STUFF.....after all 5 months is almost a LIFETIME!!!  We want it NOW!!!  (insert sound of stomping feet and tantrum throwing).....

 

It almost killed me to wait a whole 9 months for a baby to be ready.  Next time I'll use two women and have a baby in 4 1/2 months!!!

 

Or maybe next time when I bake a cake I'll turn the oven up to 700 degrees so I can have it in half the time!!!!

No need to be so sarcasstic. OP was calm and polite.

 

He also has a point. Five months is too long for a flagship digital product like this to go without any updates. They do have competitors with similar products at the same price point, ya know? They need to keep their current customers happy and give people looking at buying a mega-multi-fx pedal reasons to go with Helix over something like Fractal. Somebody researching such a purchase right now would see a longer list of models in the Fractal and more frequent updates. That's not good for Line 6 or Helix.

 

One reason I went with Helix was that I trusted Line 6 to do well in buffing up their model list over time. So far (at least lately), they aren't, in my personal opinion. I don't care so much about more amp models, but there's a long list of other things I think are lacking, and it's disconcerting that not only has there not been an update in months, there hasn't bee any word about when or what we'll be seeing in the future aside from coy little hints.

 

At a minimum, their customers deserve better communication. (Not DI's fault, I think his hands are tied by somebody higher up.) Note to DI (or his managers and/or legal team): being tight-lipped might protect you in some ways (preventing backlash from undelivered "promises" or whatever the reasoning is), but it annoys your customers and hurts the company's image in its own way.

 

All this is just my $0.02, IMHO, YMMV, etc and so on. /shrug

[cruisinon2]

I'm curious if there's something I'm missing out on...Do unrealistic expectations and the inevitable avalanche of chronic disappointment and dashed hopes that always accompany them, somehow translate into "fun"? Is there joy to be found in bemoaning the fact that a faceless, emotionless company isn't meeting your needs fast enough? Maybe I don't get it because nobody was handing out Participation Trophies when I was a kid...boo hoo.

 

If you buy a Honda Civic, you're never gonna wake up to a monster truck in the driveway...but no matter, let's blame Honda anyway.

[tenorkeith]

I'm curious if there's something I'm missing out on...Do unrealistic expectations and the inevitable avalanche of chronic disappointment and dashed hopes that always accompany them, somehow translate into "fun"? Is there joy to be found in bemoaning the fact that a faceless, emotionless company isn't meeting your needs fast enough? Maybe I don't get it because nobody was handing out Participation Trophies when I was a kid...boo hoo.

If you buy a Honda Civic, you're never gonna wake up to a monster truck in the driveway...but no matter, let's blame Honda anyway.

Cruisinon, are you serious?

What's so "unrealistic" about holding a company to the expectations they created themselves? Besides, the car analogy doesn't work when we're talking about a product designed for the very expansion I'm commenting on. And explain to me exactly what the metaphor of participation trophies has to do with one's expectations of a product we've spent a good sum of money on. Yes, life is full of disappointments. I see them every day in the faces of the families I serve as a funeral director. But for some reason, people seem to go apesh*t if you dare to ask a simple question. Give me a break!

[ChubbyJerk]

By the way, to answer your question, nobody who knows actual details is allowed to say so with anything remotely resembling specificity, which is kinda silly, but theoretically they're prioritizing bug fixes at the moment. I vaguely recall DI saying that the next update would be mostly bug fixes, though I could be wrong.

 

To be fair, there have been updates in the past 5 months, just not new models. I haven't bothered updating since February I think.

[Digital_Igloo]

Is there joy to be found in bemoaning the fact that a faceless, emotionless company isn't meeting your needs fast enough?

Dunno... Is snark an emotion?

[cruisinon2]

Dunno... Is snark an emotion?

It's a tuner, isn't it? ;)

[cruisinon2]

Cruisinon, are you serious?

What's so "unrealistic" about holding a company to the expectations they created themselves?

 

In a perfect world nothing. However, we live in this one. The entire advertising industry exists for the sole purpose of convincing people that rain isn't wet. You ever read the fine print that flashes across the bottom of the screen on TV commercials? It's legal-ese for "you can't sue us for the lies we just told you".

 

Besides, the car analogy doesn't work when we're talking about a product designed for the very expansion I'm commenting on.

You buy something for what it is, not what it might become 6 months or a year from now, because "promises" notwithstanding, you're only guaranteed what's in the box on day one. After that, all bets are off...for any of a thousand reasons. Don't care who promised what. Promises often go unfulfilled. For proof, I refer you to any politician anywhere on earth. Marketing execs are a close second.

 

 

And explain to me exactly what the metaphor of participation trophies has to do with one's expectations of a product we've spent a good sum of money on.

In a word, entitlement. More stuff, free of charge, and have it delivered yesterday. That's the world we now live in. We all got what we paid for. No one is "owed" anything. If more comes along, great. If not, oh well...but that doesn't mean anyone's been cheated.

[HonestOpinion]

I prefer to think of the Helix as more of a rose bulb than a car. I have carefully planted it and now with a little water (important safety and cautionary note, just a metaphor) and fertilizer (again, a metaphor) one day it will grow into a beautiful rose bush rather than end up wrapped around a tree or requiring a new transmission. Maybe a thorn or two along the way but its beauty will make it worth the occasional prick ;) (yet again, a metaphor). Shhhh, quiet, I am in my circle of trust now watching unicorns dance on rainbows. :D

[tenorkeith]

Cruisinon, all very good answers.

 

Look, I'm not trying to start any arguments here, even though I know this can be a sensitive topic.

I just don't want Line 6 to get so lost in the weeds chasing gremlins that they forget the other things that are important to some of us. But you're right, in the end they will do what they want, not what we want. I'll just hope for the best.

[silverhead]

Your opening sentence in this post.....

At the risk of being pummeled for this, I would like to ask why we haven't had any new amps or effects in the last five months.
...

... and your latest....

...
Look, I'm not trying to start any arguments here, even though I know this can be a sensitive topic....

Looks like you're a prophet! ;)

While you may not be actually trying to start an argument, you certainly knew what to expect. This thread has unfolded in exactly the same way as the many dozens of similar threads I've witnessed in my years here. And it has nothing to do with the specific product - it can appear in any product thread at any time. The participants change, but the theme is always the same:

Group 1: We expected more, faster, and Line 6 is letting us down. We're disappointed that our expectations are not being met.
Group 2: You bought a product and it is still doing what it did when you bought it. You are not entitled to any updates, although there probably will be some. Consider them a bonus.

 

Group 1 chooses to live in constant disappointment by unmet expectations. Group 2 chooses to be repeatedly pleasantly surprised with expectations exceeded. Glass half empty, glass half full.

... and the beat goes on ......

[phil_m]

 

Is there joy to be found in bemoaning the fact that a faceless, emotionless company isn't meeting your needs fast enough?

 

DI has a face and emotions! If you prick him, does he not bleed?  :mellow: 

 

[HonestOpinion]

DI has a face and emotions! If you prick him, does he not bleed? :mellow:

 

I'm just guessing here but casting yourself in the role of Shakespeare's character Shylock may not be exactly what one might call mounting the most effective defense for DI (not that he needs one). Magnificent as that line is there are probably better literary references out there that do not defend the taking of a "pound of flesh". Perhaps not the most fortunate of the great bard's quotes to invoke. The Prince thing works really well though. Just sayin' :D

[phil_m]

I'm just guessing here but casting yourself in the role of Shakespeare's character Shylock may not be exactly what one might call mounting the most effective defense for DI (not that he needs one). Magnificent as that line is there are probably better literary references out there that do not defend the taking of a pound of flesh. Perhaps not exactly the most "fortunate" of the great bard's quotes to invoke. The Prince thing works really well though. Just sayin' :D

 

[HonestOpinion]

 

More like flew right into me, I was indeed amused.  My reply was all in good fun as well. Enjoy your posts phil_m, keep 'em coming (I'm sure you will)  :D

[cruisinon2]

DI has a face and emotions! If you prick him, does he not bleed? :mellow:

 

Lol. Yes, I'm sure. I have no particular beef with L6 or DI. They made a product that by anyone's estimation has exceeded expectations. Retailers were selling them faster than they could make them. But no matter how glowing the reviews, or how good it sounds, the beat of the "More Drum" never ends. It is more than a little naïve and narcissistic to think that any company is gonna change their plans, or speed up their product release schedule because Bob from the house band at Red's Corner Bar in Squashed Possum, WV has decided that he's "suffered enough" waiting for an update.

 

The "where's this where's that, why wasn't it here last week, don't they care about their customers? I paid my money and I deserve x,y,and z...blah, blah, blah" threads are tiresome, and ultimately accomplish nothing.

[tenorkeith]

Silverhead,

You know, there was a time when products had to be complete before they were released. Back in the days of Pod and cartridge based video games, there were no updates or second chances. Now, everything is upgradable and expandable. Every company from line 6 to fractal to Strymon touts the ability to improve upon their product throughout its life cycle. The Helix was sold under this promise as well. They even went so far as to interview the different individuals working on improvements to the product, and invited us to participate in this process. So it seems a little disingenuous to paint us as malcontents because we have taken you up on your offer. Now, I will say again that I absolutely love my Helix, but it absolutely did not leave the gate as a complete product.

[ChubbyJerk]

Your opening sentence in this post.....

... and your latest....

Looks like you're a prophet! ;)

 

While you may not be actually trying to start an argument, you certainly knew what to expect. This thread has unfolded in exactly the same way as the many dozens of similar threads I've witnessed in my years here. And it has nothing to do with the specific product - it can appear in any product thread at any time. The participants change, but the theme is always the same:

 

Group 1: We expected more, faster, and Line 6 is letting us down. We're disappointed that our expectations are not being met.

Group 2: You bought a product and it is still doing what it did when you bought it. You are not entitled to any updates, although there probably will be some. Consider them a bonus.

 

Group 1 chooses to live in constant disappointment by unmet expectations. Group 2 chooses to be repeatedly pleasantly surprised with expectations exceeded. Glass half empty, glass half full.

 

... and the beat goes on ......

I hate threads like this, and there's one main reason. Well, I guess two...the first reason is that people always have to be smartasses and spew ad hominem attacks, but that's not my main point (at the moment). I swear I end up arguing most often because I hate the attitude of posters more so than the meat of their point.

 

Here's the main problem. Both sides have valid points.

 

Are we, as users, entitled to updates? No. (In my opinion, the OP did not come across as a whiny entitled brat, but clearly some disagree, so let's just roll with it.) Anyway, no, we're not entitled to updates. However, let's run with one of the earlier examples...

 

When you find out a politician took bribes, or paid out hush money to cover up child molestation, or whatever. (I'm from Chicago, plenty to choose from.) What do you do? Do you smile, nod, say, "Hey, whatevz, man, that's what I expected. No big deal"? Or do you complain, charge them with crimes, impeach them, campaign for somebody else, vote for somebody else, etc?

 

I would say, personally, while I'm no longer surprised when I find out a local politician is a criminal, I certainly am not going to smile and nod and keep my mouth shut and vote for them again. If nobody said, "hey, wait a minute, that's, you know...not okay, man," then we'd still have Blago and Hastert et al in charge here. The same is true here. Is it going to lead to DI saying, "oh, yeah, Chubs, you're totally right, here's an update just for you!"? No, of course not. But it gives them insight into the market, their users, expectations, problems, and so on. All useful tools for a business. (Maybe slightly less useful once it's the 20th thread in the same vein, but still useful; much like counting the number of upvotes something gets on Ideascale, information can be gleaned from even the 50th thread on this topic.)

 

Are we entitled to on-demand updates? No. But we are entitled to let them know our opinion. This forum happens to give us that opportunity. And doing so is healthy, the company needs to hear it. They need to know what customers are happy with, what their expectations are, etc. That's the whole reason they set up stuff like Ideascale, is it not? You know they listen, they want us to be happy. Word of mouth, reviews, happy users looking to buy something else from them...this is how they stay in business, both short-term and long. As long as you're respectful, letting them know your opinion, even if it's negative, is a good thing.

 

And really, you guys are ignoring a big part of this...if Line 6 can't get any new models out in 5 months, that is not a good sign. It is not indicative of product health. It does not bode well for their place in this market. It's about more than just giving me what I want, it's about making the product better, selling more units, taking market share, and so on. You can say 200 amp models is a waste of space, and I'd agree with you, but the fact is that when people go researching a product like this, it's a big factor for many. Whether you'll use them or not, we, as a community, all benefit from having more.

 

Sure, buy the unit for what it can do now, not what it could theoretically do with an update in the future. That's one way to look at it. Just be complacent, happy with what you have, shut up and nod your head and say, "good job!" And in the meantime, other products are getting better over time, and the Helix is looking like it's starting to stagnate (when many would already say it's behind the competition).

 

(Stagnation is probably a misconception, there is theoretically "stuff" in the works, but if it's a misconception then it's a common one due to lack of content updates and/or concrete communication.)

 

Can we all make a deal? I'll avoid calling you all brown-nosed boot-licking yes-men if you avoid calling people who complain spoiled entitled bratty McWhineybutts. It's really not all that difficult to make a point civilly.

[mileskb]

I'll give the OP a pass on the Mesa Mk IIC+ because to my knowledge it's the only amp with 6L6 and EL84's in it.   It also uses my favorite EV 12L speakers.

 

However, with the Bogner...  there are several versions with several channels and assorted speaker options.  I'm guessing you could get pretty damn close, if not spot on with other "models" of similar specs and the right IR and from my discussion at NAMM in January with one of the reps...  I think THAT is point.

 

Because they are modeling "components" and how they interact, NOT JUST MODELING AMPS...  They are shooting for the largest variety of component configurations, not a long list of amps that if you actually opened up the amps side-by-side on a bench with the covers off, you wouldn't be able to easily tell them apart.  

 

As example...  They have the Bogner Shiva as  "German Mahadeva."   Which one did they model?  I generally can tell EL84's from 6L6's but honestly..  mucking with he Bias and Sag...  I have no idea which one they modeled the 80 watt EL34 powered version or the 60 watt 6L6 powered version.  

 

Additionally, they don't put all of the user interface that's on the actual amp into the models.   I have TWO Ampeg B15N Portaflexes.  before and after mid 70's versions.   Ascetically they don't look like, and functionally they are quite different... but for the purposes of the Helix.. I can make the Helix Tuck'nGo sound like either of them.     And.... they might as well say they have a B12N too, because the B15 and B12 are the same amp (exactly the same amp) with different sized speakers/cabinet.   All I need to do is replace the 15" cab with a bass 12" cab and done.

 

That is all....

[DunedinDragon]

I'll give the OP a pass on the Mesa Mk IIC+ because to my knowledge it's the only amp with 6L6 and EL84's in it.   It also uses my favorite EV 12L speakers.

 

However, with the Bogner...  there are several versions with several channels and assorted speaker options.  I'm guessing you could get pretty damn close, if not spot on with other "models" of similar specs and the right IR and from my discussion at NAMM in January with one of the reps...  I think THAT is point.

 

Because they are modeling "components" and how they interact, NOT JUST MODELING AMPS...  They are shooting for the largest variety of component configurations, not a long list of amps that if you actually opened up the amps side-by-side on a bench with the covers off, you wouldn't be able to easily tell them apart.  

 

As example...  They have the Bogner Shiva as  "German Mahadeva."   Which one did they model?  I generally can tell EL84's from 6L6's but honestly..  mucking with he Bias and Sag...  I have no idea which one they modeled the 80 watt EL34 powered version or the 60 watt 6L6 powered version.  

 

Additionally, they don't put all of the user interface that's on the actual amp into the models.   I have TWO Ampeg B15N Portaflexes.  before and after mid 70's versions.   Ascetically they don't look like, and functionally they are quite different... but for the purposes of the Helix.. I can make the Helix Tuck'nGo sound like either of them.     And.... they might as well say they have a B12N too, because the B15 and B12 are the same amp (exactly the same amp) with different sized speakers/cabinet.   All I need to do is replace the 15" cab with a bass 12" cab and done.

 

That is all....

 

To be honest, this is really what causes me to roll my eyes when I come across threads like this.

 

I find it hard to believe that given the models currently included in the Helix, along with the built in flexibility of cabinets and amp configurations, that one could not achieve an acceptable tone without having that "one specific amp" in the lineup.  I would have a bit more compassion for this stance if something like a Marshall Plexi, or Fender Twin, or Vox AC15 were missing from the lineup.  But that's not what we're talking about here.  At best we're talking about amps that are marginally unique and in the final analysis would anyone in your audience ever say, "well that guy sounded great, but he would have sounded so much better if he had only used a Mesa Mk IIc+".

 

It makes me wonder whether the motivation of the poster was really about an actual operational limitation, or if they are just being a Prima Donna.

[mileskb]

To be honest, this is really what causes me to roll my eyes when I come across threads like this.

 

I find it hard to believe that given the models currently included in the Helix, along with the built in flexibility of cabinets and amp configurations, that one could not achieve an acceptable tone without having that "one specific amp" in the lineup.  I would have a bit more compassion for this stance if something like a Marshall Plexi, or Fender Twin, or Vox AC15 were missing from the lineup.  But that's not what we're talking about here.  At best we're talking about amps that are marginally unique and in the final analysis would anyone in your audience ever say, "well that guy sounded great, but he would have sounded so much better if he had only used a Mesa Mk IIc+".

 

It makes me wonder whether the motivation of the poster was really about an actual operational limitation, or if they are just being a Prima Donna.

 

I was trying to be polite but....  I'm with you 100% on this.  

 

1. Most amps have EL84, EL34, 6L6 or KT88/6550 output tubes.
2. Preamp tubes are 12AX7, ECC83, 7025

After option 1 and 2 are selected...  the following options come into play but if the amp model doesn't have them, you can always add a block to make up for it.

• They either have a gain stage or don't
• They have tone controls or don't
• They have Master Volume or Don't.
• Some sort of Speaker Cabinet.

None of the "models" have any effects.... (ironic the twin reverb doesn't have reverb...  that just makes me giggle)

 

Sooooooo   .... oh nevermind.

 

You might ask... "If there are so few combinations of components why are there so many amps out there?"

 

That's a fair question.   Simply put, they each have, at least what the designer thought, was a signature tone or other element that sets them apart.  Generally accomplished by hard wiring things like Bias and Sag, and filters and such with components.  But here in Helix-world we are not restricted by hard-wire design.    If we want a very basic EL34 amp grab and AC30....  want it have a  4 x 12 cab...  do it.   Want it to have 6L6 tubes, crank the BIAS all the way up (or is it down, I forget).  Hey, lets give it gain.... done...  how about a mid boost...  done...  We have a Laney 100  !!!!  Yeay!!!!     Actually that's probably not accurate, I did it for effect... but it gets the idea across.

[markman87]

It seems people forget about the editor that needed to be finishes first.

We all know that Line 6 will bring the updates.

We don't want them to rush it.

 

Having Yamaha's backing is not really relevant here.

 

And: Line 6 can't legally share specific info about what's coming.

 

Remember that besides amps, many wants functionality as well, like scenes and stuff. It takes a long time to implement.

 

Patience really is a virtue!

[tenorkeith]

To be honest, this is really what causes me to roll my eyes when I come across threads like this.

 

It makes me wonder whether the motivation of the poster was really about an actual operational limitation, or if they are just being a Prima Donna.

This is why it is just not worth it to post here. Diverse opinions are not welcome, and your motives will be questioned. It is obvious that neither Line 6 nor their loyal followers can tolerate anything other than glowing praise, and that is a very dangerous attitude for any company to have. Peace!

[phil_m]

This is why it is just not worth it to post here. Diverse opinions are not welcome, and your motives will be questioned. It is obvious that neither Line 6 nor their loyal followers can tolerate anything other than glowing praise, and that is a very dangerous attitude for any company to have. Peace!

 

Line 6 is actually quite receptive to diverse opinions, critiques, bad reviews, etc... These boards are barely moderated, and, really, the only time posts are deleted or threads are locked is when things degenerate into personal attacks or someone really goes off the rails. There's only a handful of times I've seen that happen over the years.

[zooey]

Miles, you've reduced all of amp design to the few factors you've called out, as if it's all just unimportant variations nobody would ever consider wasting their time on. Seriously? I bet there are a bunch of amp makers and players who would dispute that.

 

And DunedinDragon, someone whose priorities are different from yours isn't necessarily a prima donna or otherwise invalid.

 

I don't mean to call out you two specifically, I just was reading those posts, and feeling like we really need to allow everyone space to ask about and say what they're interested in.

 

Obviously, Line 6 has to decide what to do first and what to do later, out of their enormous list of possible enhancements. Everyone here knows that. When someone says they really wish feature x or y would happen yesterday, I take it for granted that they mean it's important to them, nothing more.

 

The flip side of that is that when someone says they feel cheated because they bought a Helix thinking that soon it would have features x and y that didn't exist at that time, and haven't been announced as even planned, I just move on. They also mean it's important to them, and we can talk about those features as features, but those expectation fantasies are clearly unwarranted, and aren't my concern, or Line 6's.

[silverhead]

Silverhead,

..... So it seems a little disingenuous to paint us as malcontents because we have taken you up on your offer......

 

Just to be clear, I am not an employee of Line 6. Nor are others who carry the 'Expert' tag.

 

I hate threads like this....

 

Here's the main problem. Both sides have valid points.

 

...

 

So do I hate these threads. And yes, both sides have valid points. In my post I simply tried to outline the nature of these repetitive threads, and characterize the two sides. I didn't make any statement about my personal opinion (at least not here), or which viewpoint I consider more reasonable. All opinions expressed on this topic are valid and I wasn't trying to discount anyone's viewpoint. Just observing that one viewpoint leads to disappointment and the other doesn't.

 

The mechanism for influencing Line 6 is Ideascale. Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind in these pointless threads that may or may not even be read by Line 6.

[jasdadgad]

Here's my 3 cents:

 

1.  Please do not p*ss off Digital Igloo.

2.  I play through my Helix for hours a day, with a huge grin.

3.  I check this forum every day, hoping for a firmware update.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Digital_Igloo]

Now, I will say again that I absolutely love my Helix, but it absolutely did not leave the gate as a complete product.

Compared to what? One could just as easily say competing boxes didn't leave the gate as complete products because they didn't have scribble strips, RGB LEDs, a color screen, cap-sense switches, Pedal Edit mode, four effects loops, tons of outputs, 8x8 USB audio, MIDI over USB, a full-featured Command Center, a Klon model, and 800 other things. Something isn't incomplete simply because it might not fit your particular cherry-picked checklist.

 

What's cool is that users have ample opportunity to create a collective cherry-picked checklist. It's called IdeaScale.

 

FWIW, we were very happy with where Helix landed at 1.00—there were dozens of features on the chopping block, but team Helix fought hard to keep them.

 

There are three reasons why we don't talk about what's coming:

1. Because we're a wholly-owned subsidiary of a company that's publicly traded. Anything that might be interpreted as a "promise" (including firmware updates) must be realized in full within XX amount of time or we open ourselves up for potentially serious trade law infringement. I don't understand (or care to understand) how this works, only that I'd prefer not to be scolded by Yamaha's lawyers.
2. Because by the time something is actually announced, the public will have whipped themselves into a frenzy guessing what it might be, and by the time it actually appears, it better cure cancer and give everyone free puppies.
3. Because that's stupid. We're a business and we have competitors who pay very close attention to what we do and say.

Besides, Line 6 has more transparency than any MI company I can think of. Complaining that Line 6 needs to communicate more is like complaining that LeBron James needs to make more baskets.

[tenorkeith]

Mr. Igloo,

 

Of course Helix was not complete, and this is not meant as a criticism. Line 6 always had future plans and things they couldn't quite implement by launch. That's the point. We all knew there would be more "stuff" to come. Not a problem for me.

 

Also, I never even mentioned Line 6's lack of communication, as others have. Again, no problem here.

 

The ENTIRE POINT of my post was to express my frustration with the lack of certain iconic amps that I thought would be there from day one, and my hopes that Line 6 has been listening. I love Helix, and I don't want it to be left behind. I deliberately did not buy a Fractal product, because I don't fancy wading through endless screens of blocky text to adjust the most minute of details. Helix is an altogether more intuitive and sexy product. Do I need 200 amps? Of course not. But yes, I would like some of the choices available on competing products, which I know you guys are fully capable of delivering.

 

So if you find anything I've said to be of any value, great. If not, no problem. I just felt that this was the place to express such views.

 

Take care, and thanks for listening.