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tenorkeith

Where are the amps?!? - aka, beating a dead horse

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Which Bandit? The 65, Sliver Stripe or the trans tube Shefield. :D

 

Now let the pigeons loose!

Oh no!!! Here we go again....  lol

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Our goal has always been dead-on accuracy of specific amps (actually, a specific serial number, as two of the exact same amp can sound notably different.

Well DAMN, If I had known I could pick the serial number!!! Now, where's that IdeaScale link?..... :)

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I made similar comments to the original poster in the past. And I stood by the fact that it needed more just to keep up with the competition. It was appropriately pointed out that there are a lot of features the others didn't have like connectivity options. Others said it was its own product and while it was similar to the others they were not really competing. The not competing part is completely wrong. I too love the Helix. It will remain my main unit for live work. I now also have an AX8. I do expect Line 6 to add stuff but if they don't I can live with it. But if they don't the product will not succeed. I firmly believe this after getting the AX8. Like I said, Helix will remain my live rig. It is simply the best and easiest in live situations. Not necessarily in amp sims, both do well there, but Helix is just easier to use and easier to interface with your existing setup. No matter what it is.

 

I will say one thing to the original poster. One of the biggest issues Line 6 faces is what to add if they do. What you consider iconic amps and list above others will disagree with. I would say there are many I would prefer over those. So Line 6 has created idea scale to try to get what the majority want. The problem us no matter what they do some will be upset. For me I would want Dumble, early Gibson amps (for that old Rockabilly stuff) etc. Age enters in here. So I have come to realize that I just need to sit back and be happy when and if they add things. If I hope for this or that I will just be disappointed because they didn't add what I wanted.

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I made similar comments to the original poster in the past. And I stood by the fact that it needed more just to keep up with the competition. It was appropriately pointed out that there are a lot of features the others didn't have like connectivity options. Others said it was its own product and while it was similar to the others they were not really competing. The not competing part is completely wrong. I too love the Helix. It will remain my main unit for live work. I now also have an AX8. I do expect Line 6 to add stuff but if they don't I can live with it. But if they don't the product will not succeed. I firmly believe this after getting the AX8. Like I said, Helix will remain my live rig. It is simply the best and easiest in live situations. Not necessarily in amp sims, both do well there, but Helix is just easier to use and easier to interface with your existing setup. No matter what it is.

 

I will say one thing to the original poster. One of the biggest issues Line 6 faces is what to add if they do. What you consider iconic amps and list above others will disagree with. I would say there are many I would prefer over those. So Line 6 has created idea scale to try to get what the majority want. The problem us no matter what they do some will be upset. For me I would want Dumble, early Gibson amps (for that old Rockabilly stuff) etc. Age enters in here. So I have come to realize that I just need to sit back and be happy when and if they add things. If I hope for this or that I will just be disappointed because they didn't add what I wanted.

Deep insights ;)

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But if they don't the product will not succeed...

 

too late, the product is already, it seems, a raging success... :P

 

We have to remember that those of us who belly-ache on forums are a pretty small percentage of users. I bet there are a lot of guys who buy stuff like this who seldom even get online to check out software updates.

...For me I would want Dumble, early Gibson amps...

 

There is a great Gibson in there, you know that, right? Dumble? I don't know how much that helps since each one is so unique. You'll never make everyone who wants one happy.

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Judging by the fact that sales exceeded Line 6 expectations pretty much says that the product is competing very well in the market.

 

-Max

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BigRalph,

I can't really argue with anything that you've said. I think you are correct in that they are indeed different products and will suit different people's needs differently. You are also correct in stating that no matter what they add, someone will be disappointed. I think that the ideascale model is a pretty good one for allowing people to express their opinions and then vote. I am certain that in the end there will be some things I wish were included that are ultimately not, and I am totally fine with that. But since I cannot afford both of these products, I chose the helix for many of the reasons you cited. I am just a little frustrated with the pace of things, especially since I know that line 6 can deliver. And quite frankly, it pisses me off to see the AxeFx fanboys go on and on and on about how responsive Fractal is, and I suppose that's my problem to deal with. People on this forum can get angry with me if they like for bringing up this topic, but we really are on the same side. We all want Helix to be the best it can be.

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Even if 'people in this forum get angry with me for writing this':

I think that Line6 is very responsive!

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The not competing part is completely wrong.

The problem is that some users cherry-pick fifty features from a dozen competing products and bemoan the fact that every other box doesn't have all fifty features. If it were up to them, all modeler developers would just chase each others' tails around a big circle.

 

Line 6 doesn't care what Roland/BOSS, Kemper, Fractal, Atomic, or others do. We care about solving musicians' problems and providing tools that help them make music in new and creative ways.

 

If there's a sonic or usability issue with Helix, we'll do our best address it, but always in our way. Otherwise you end up with:

Homer-and-The-Supercar.jpg

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Point taken, but to some extent you must be affected by it, no? Take for example the helix editor. I think that the interface on the helix is incredible and stands apart as being fully functional without the need of an external editor. But People clamored for one probably because they have used them on competing products. So in some respects everyone is influenced by everyone else.

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too late, the product is already, it seems, a raging success... :P

 

We have to remember that those of us who belly-ache on forums are a pretty small percentage of users. I bet there are a lot of guys who buy stuff like this who seldom even get online to check out software updates.

 

There is a great Gibson in there, you know that, right? Dumble? I don't know how much that helps since each one is so unique. You'll never make everyone who wants one happy.

Ya. The Gibson in here is nice for sure. And as for success I meant long term. It is dong well now without a doubt, but a lot of new technology starts out well. Like I said I really like my Helix. Just adding to the debate.

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Point taken, but to some extent you must be affected by it, no? Take for example the helix editor. I think that the interface on the helix is incredible and stands apart as being fully functional without the need of an external editor. But People clamored for one probably because they have used them on competing products. So in some respects everyone is influenced by everyone else.

 

Our users are likely influenced by competing products, and IdeaScale is certainly chock full of "add this thing that company X already did!" requests. Our job is to dig through all the fluff, figure out where the real problem or friction lies, and address that—hopefully in an elegant and easy-to-use way.

 

There are a million things we could do. Which things are actually beneficial for the vast majority of Helix users and which ones apply only to a few people to the detriment or confusion of everyone else?

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The problem is that some users cherry-pick fifty features from a dozen competing products and bemoan the fact that every other box doesn't have all fifty features. If it were up to them, all modeler developers would just chase each others' tails around a big circle.

 

Line 6 doesn't care what Roland/BOSS, Kemper, Fractal, Atomic, or others do. We care about solving musicians' problems and providing tools that help them make music in new and creative ways.

 

If there's a sonic or usability issue with Helix, we'll do our best address it, but always in our way. Otherwise you end up with:

Homer-and-The-Supercar.jpg

I agree with all of that DI. And I also think Line 6 has done a great job addressing performance issues which should always be priority before more goodies ( not that there have been a lot). I am not slamming Line 6 at all. I am just saying they are competitors whether people want to call them that or not. Most will weigh the options and pick the one they want. A few, like myself, will opt for more than one of the devices. I will admit that I only did so because we needed a second unit at church and it presented me with the opportunity for both. The Church is slready looking at a Helix to leave at church for everyone to use.

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...Which things are actually beneficial for the vast majority of Helix users and which ones apply only to a few people to the detriment or confusion of everyone else?

 

Then there's always the possibility that they see what people are asking for that someone else has and say... "What is the problem to be solved here and can we do it better?"

 

Case in point... Axe FX II has dual signal chains... Helix has FOUR.

 

And loops... 4 of them instead of just one or two on other products out there.

 

And I'm sure people say, hey other products can record direct... and they gave us an 8-in 8-out USB class-compliant interface.

 

And I don't think anyone ever asked for that huge big display and ridiculous ease of use... but they saw what people wanted and extrapolated out and said "how much better can we do?"

 

I love this stuff.

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After using the Helix the interface on the AX8 does seem more complicated. It isn't terribly hard, but not as easy. It is interesting to hear different sides. The Helx is more powerful also with its ability to use two Amps/cabs in a single patch. No headphone jack on AX8. One thing I like about the Line 6 board is that no one gets terribly upset if someone mentions Kemper or AX. That isn't the case on the AX forums. Some get offended if you even mention liking Helix or Kemper. I think overall Helix will prove to be the easiest and most flexible opinion out there. I think AX will always have an elitest fanbase attitude. Maybe I have been way off in my thoughts. It is very possible each has its own spot in the market. Which will do best in sales? Who knows.

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Compared to what?

 

Compared to previous products Line 6 has made, that also cost a lot less money. 

 

I love my Helix, but still, we shouldn't have to take a step back in a lot of major categories just to upgrade to the latest [very expensive] modeling tech. Microsoft did something similar with the Xbox One, where it's missing a lot of the nuanced features that made the Xbox 360 great, and three years later, they're slowly adding all of those features back. This kind of thinking damages trust. We WANT to be Line 6's cheerleaders, but it's currently a little hard to justify. 

 

The user interface and hardware are AMAZING. Probably the best I've ever seen, but there are times where the list of amps and effects feels extremely lacking, almost barren, compared to the HD500. People don't want to have a Helix PLUS their pedal board. They want to be all-in on the Helix, and they get frustrated when they can't. 

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Compared to previous products Line 6 has made, that also cost a lot less money.

If Helix had to incorporate every feature of every Line 6 product made before it, the thing would be the most frankensteined piece of crap ever made.

If Helix had to include every model of every Line 6 product made before it, the thing would be released in 2026, and we'd all be out of a job.

 

Quality over quantity.

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Compared to what? One could just as easily say competing boxes didn't leave the gate as complete products because they didn't have scribble strips, RGB LEDs, a color screen, cap-sense switches, Pedal Edit mode, four effects loops, tons of outputs, 8x8 USB audio, MIDI over USB, a full-featured Command Center, a Klon model, and 800 other things. Something isn't incomplete simply because it might not fit your particular cherry-picked checklist.

 

What's cool is that users have ample opportunity to create a collective cherry-picked checklist. It's called IdeaScale.

 

FWIW, we were very happy with where Helix landed at 1.00—there were dozens of features on the chopping block, but team Helix fought hard to keep them.

 

There are three reasons why we don't talk about what's coming:

  1. Because we're a wholly-owned subsidiary of a company that's publicly traded. Anything that might be interpreted as a "promise" (including firmware updates) must be realized in full within XX amount of time or we open ourselves up for potentially serious trade law infringement. I don't understand (or care to understand) how this works, only that I'd prefer not to be scolded by Yamaha's lawyers.
  2. Because by the time something is actually announced, the public will have whipped themselves into a frenzy guessing what it might be, and by the time it actually appears, it better cure cancer and give everyone free puppies.
  3. Because that's stupid. We're a business and we have competitors who pay very close attention to what we do and say.Besides, Line 6 has more transparency than any MI company I can think of. Complaining that Line 6 needs to communicate more is like complaining that LeBron James needs to make more baskets.

I understand the reason why you cannot disclosure plans and timing. On the other side, you can easily measure customers disappointment for this "blind journey" on helix forum. I'm not saying they're always right but this could cause disaffection if not managed. What about declaring you'll be issuing a new release every second moth no matter the level of upgrade you'll be able to introduce? You'll not infringe any trade law nor give any information to your competitors. Customers will try and get their best on what they already have while waiting till the next release to possibly have more. Customers will then stop looking every second hour on your site to see if a new release came out.

Anyway Helix is a really nice product: congratulations on the job you've done.

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Am I the only one waiting for more effects, 'cause the amps are enough for my needs?  :huh:

 

You are not alone!  If I want clean.. Helix can do clean.. if I want crunch... Helix can do crunch, If I want hi gain.. Helix can do hi gain.

If I want a freeze sound?  I'm out of luck 

 

More varied effects please!

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You are not alone!  If I want clean.. Helix can do clean.. if I want crunch... Helix can do crunch, If I want hi gain.. Helix can do hi gain.

If I want a freeze sound?  I'm out of luck 

 

More varied effects please!

 

Add another. Helix already does pretty much everything it can with an amp. Any new amps they add are only going to add a subtle level of variety that most casual listeners wouldn't even notice.

 

Filters are currently a hole, and I think they know that. I really hope they're able to add effect modifiers. That would expand the core functionality of all effects at once.

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We want BOTH! But in time, and done right, and done well.

One thing I'd like to see with Helix, now that we have the capability, is fewer new FX, but way more flexibility in them. So that I'm basically designing my own FX.

But I'm in the camp of what's in there really works for me. The things I want that aren't in there would be so DSP intensive that I'm just adding them in the loops (POG2 anyone?).

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I'm not saying they're always right but this could cause disaffection if not managed.

"Disaffection" is now worn as a badge of honor. It's carefully nurtured by educators, politicians, and especially the media. There are an alarming number of people who comb the airwaves 24/7 looking for new sources of offense and disappointment. Once found, they claim aggrieved status, loudly and at length from their "safe space". They then proceed to beg and plead with our "leaders" to be shielded from that which they have actively sought out. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. Not sure if there's a name for this disorder in the DSM...if not, there should be.

 

Point is, there doesn't likely exist a course of action for L6 (or any other company for that matter), that would satisfy the chronically "disaffected". For some, there simply will never be enough amps, and what is delivered won't get here soon enough...especially if it fails to materialize before their gig at Walt's Trout Hut. And if by some miracle a perfect model of every amp that has ever existed were magically released tomorrow, they'd simply declare something else to be "deficient" and a personal affront to their needs/sensibilities.

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...Point is, there doesn't likely exist a course of action for L6 (or any other company for that matter), that would satisfy the chronically "disaffected". For some, there simply will never be enough amps, and what is delivered won't get here soon enough...especially if it fails to materialize before their gig at Walt's Trout Hut. And if by some miracle a perfect model of every amp that has ever existed were magically released tomorrow, they'd simply declare something else to be "deficient" and a personal affront to their needs/sensibilities.

 

I've known too many of these folks. I had a buddy one time who spent 5 years researching a digital camera before he finally found one that suited his specific needs.

 

Back in the day, you played the Fender Bassman or Twin because... THAT WAS ALL THERE WAS! And you made it sound good.

 

People complain about not having this or that or whatever in Helix (like they have in every single product that models I've ever had) and I STILL only use 2 or 3 amps and probably 5% MAYBE of the FX that are in there.

 

In other words, "Get a freakin' life"...

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I've known too many of these folks. I had a buddy one time who spent 5 years researching a digital camera before he finally found one that suited his specific needs.

 

And it only cost him 5 years worth of pictures in the process...what a bargain! Ugh, lol. ;)

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...difference between a domina and this Sergeant Major 7th...

...nobody explained, nobody helped :lol:

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...difference between a domina and this Sergeant Major 7th...

...nobody explained, nobody helped :lol:

"What does 3 up and 3 down mean to you, Airman?!?!"

 

"End of an inning?"

 

;)

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In other words, "Get a freakin' life"...

And there it is. You have distilled this entire argument to its central theme. Anyone who enjoys the Helix, but would like to see additional content in the form of more amps or effects is just a malcontent looking to be offended. Ok, I see.

 

And by the way, my gig at Walt's Trout Shack isn't for a few weeks so I'm confident that there will be models of every amp ever created by then, right? I mean, since our expectations are so unreasonable...

 

I would submit that the ones who mock and marginalize anyone who doesn't think the Helix is absolutely perfect are the easily offended, professional victims here. I mean, GOD FORBID we should hold a different viewpoint from yourselves!

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Yeah, lot of bullying I see over here. Pretty annoying.

 

You ask something and you get flooded with sarcasm and whatever idiocy.

 

Indeed get a freaking life....

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You are not alone!  If I want clean.. Helix can do clean.. if I want crunch... Helix can do crunch, If I want hi gain.. Helix can do hi gain.

If I want a freeze sound?  I'm out of luck 

 

More varied effects please!

I agree. I've got amps I'm happy with. There are a lot of effects / categories that are sub-par (imo), even compared to other (cheaper) mutli-fx. Filters, for example. Octavers. Synths. Bass players in general don't get as much love as guitarists. Many effects are guitar-centric and don't work as well with bass. (Parallel paths helps alleviate the problems that can cause though!) Some bass-specific additions would be welcome.

 

And there are effects that would be great to have that aren't on there. Some that other multi-fx have, others that Line 6 could be the first to incorporate into a multi-fx unit (as far as I know), which could be a big selling point. Stutter (like Hexe Revolver or Malekko Charlie Foxtrot), Freeze, and so on. The problem is, I think those are kinda niche, so I'm not sure if the payoff is worth it.

 

I'm pretty sure we'll never see most of the things on my list in the Helix. I'm ok with that. I've always known they were long-shots. I just want to see new things put in there, whether it's something I care about or not. Features, effects, amps, whatever man.

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And there it is. You have distilled this entire argument to its central theme. Anyone who enjoys the Helix, but would like to see additional content in the form of more amps or effects is just a malcontent looking to be offended. Ok, I see.

 

no, just the ones who are impossible to make happy with any product in any way whatsoever.

They know who they are... or they don't...

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What about declaring you'll be issuing a new release every second moth no matter the level of upgrade you'll be able to introduce? You'll not infringe any trade law nor give any information to your competitors.

I'm not a lawyer, but our counsel would disagree with you.

 

An unnamed high end audio interface company once made their development roadmap public—and missed every deadline. Some users were extremely upset and IIRC, a couple threatened to sue. The public should never know a company's deadlines because those deadlines have great tendency to slip.

 

Besides, everyone should buy a product based on what it does today, not what they think it might do in the future.

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...Besides, everyone should buy a product based on what it does today, not what they think it might do in the future.

THIS. SO much this.

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I'm not a lawyer, but our counsel would disagree with you.

 

An unnamed high end audio interface company once made their development roadmap public—and missed every deadline. Some users were extremely upset and IIRC, a couple threatened to sue. The public should never know a company's deadlines because those deadlines have great tendency to slip.

 

Besides, everyone should buy a product based on what it does today, not what they think it might do in the future.

Bah. There are ways to share plans and give glimpses of what's in development without risking legal ramifications. Entire commercials are built out of pure beta footage. Just put a disclaimer in your sig and start spilling details. :) 

 

Anyway, the flip side of your last bit is that some companies have built up enough trust with customers that they can sell products based off of what customers think they will do. Think, for example, Playstation 4, where preorders would sell out months in advance and get eBayed for more than double the cost. That's actually a pretty good parallel, because it lacked some things on launch (dvd playback, iirc?) that people were like, dude, wtf? And over time things like that got added in.

 

Have you never pre-ordered a pedal, because the little demo sounded cool and you trusted the company? Or pre-ordered a whole album because you like the band and that one single is good? Or a book because it's by one of your favorite authors? All of these are cases where I, or you, or other people, routinely buy things that might not even exist yet or are only partially complete or prototyped, based off of little demos, 1 song out of 10, or past experiences, and so on because we have trust in the creator to deliver something we'll enjoy when it does finally come.

 

That's not to say, if you want, for example, a Darkglass B7K, you should ever assume that will be added in. But Line 6, to me, is a company that I trust to consistently keep updating and improving their existing products. So, in general, if I looked at the effects list of Helix and said, "hmm, the list of effects is a little light for my tastes," that wouldn't stop me from buying it, because I would trust that Line6 would, over time, improve the overall selection of effects.

 

Doesn't that make sense? Isn't that an attitude you should appreciate in your customers?

 

I used, way too many, commas in that post, sorry,,,

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