Volume Pedal and Snapshots

[jshimkoski]

I'm not sure if this is a bug:

 

I made a preset that has a volume block controlled by the built-in expression pedal. If I'm in snapshot 1 and turn off the volume pedal (press down on expression pedal) it turns off the volume block as expected. However, if I go to a different snapshot, the volume pedal now does not function, even if that snapshot shows an active (not bypassed) volume block.

 

Anyone else encounter this? Am I missing coming?

 

Also, I was excited about being able to switch Variax models/tunings and such using the new functionality in the 2.0 firmware... Sadly, there is just enough of a delay between model switching in the JTV to make this feature basically unusable in a live situation. Oh well... still handy for recording scenarios.

[jshimkoski]

Actually, I found this note in the official documentation:

 

IMPORTANT! Snapshots make it easy for multiple blocks assigned to the same footswitch to end up in unexpected states. For example, if FS2 toggles between Delay (ON) and Reverb (OFF) blocks and a snapshot turns the Reverb on, FS2 will suddenly turn both blocks on and o together. 

 

Looks like that is the issue I'm encountering... so it looks like, until Line 6 implements a feature to make certain blocks "preset global" (their state ignores individual snapshots), we all need to remember, that if you switch from your volume pedal to a wah inside a snapshot, you better switch back to the volume pedal before switching snapshots or you'll really run into some ugliness.

 

Seems like a slight oversight. Other than that, snapshots are brilliant.

[jshimkoski]

Added "Preset Global Blocks" as an idea to idea scale:

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Preset-Global-Blocks-for-use-across-Snapshots/830335-23508?submitted=1

[silverhead]

...

Also, I was excited about being able to switch Variax models/tunings and such using the new functionality in the 2.0 firmware... Sadly, there is just enough of a delay between model switching in the JTV to make this feature basically unusable in a live situation. Oh well... still handy for recording scenarios.

 

Yes, I guess I will have to stick to my current method of having one analog guitar strapped around my neck while I dance among seven other analog guitars mounted horizontally on stands so that I can play all of them during a single song without any lag or interruption in tempo as I switch among them all. :lol: ;)

 

(I kid, of course. We're so spoiled with this digital technology that I sometimes find it amusing to think of what we'd have to do to achieve the same thing in the 'old' world. I, too, would love to see this capability without any lag but we're just not there yet. Who knows - maybe Variax Snapshots are on the drawing board?)

[NathanShane]

Also, I was excited about being able to switch Variax models/tunings and such using the new functionality in the 2.0 firmware... Sadly, there is just enough of a delay between model switching in the JTV to make this feature basically unusable in a live situation. Oh well... still handy for recording scenarios.

 

Hmm...I'm a bit confused by this statement. Are you saying that if you use different JTV models on a per preset basis, that there is too much of a time switching gap on the JTV when it switches between its models? Or are you referring to the overall time switching gap which occurs when switching between presets? Are you making use of some kind of unique preset setup for your JTV? I ask, because I know several guitar players that use a JTV alone and/or a JTV+HD500/500X/Helix and there has never been a complaint about a delay gap when switching between JTV models.

[phil_m]

Actually, I found this note in the official documentation:

 

IMPORTANT! Snapshots make it easy for multiple blocks assigned to the same footswitch to end up in unexpected states. For example, if FS2 toggles between Delay (ON) and Reverb (OFF) blocks and a snapshot turns the Reverb on, FS2 will suddenly turn both blocks on and o together. 

 

Looks like that is the issue I'm encountering... so it looks like, until Line 6 implements a feature to make certain blocks "preset global" (their state ignores individual snapshots), we all need to remember, that if you switch from your volume pedal to a wah inside a snapshot, you better switch back to the volume pedal before switching snapshots or you'll really run into some ugliness.

 

Seems like a slight oversight. Other than that, snapshots are brilliant.

 

What you're experiencing isn't the expected behavior. There shouldn't be any issue with using a volume or wah pedal with snapshots. I've been doing this for months now (as a beta tester).

 

It sounds to me that perhaps the JTV volume saved with your snapshot is at zero in the input block. So when you go to a new snapshot, the volume of the guitar is dropping and the volume pedal has nothing to do with it.

[jshimkoski]

Hmm...I'm a bit confused by this statement. Are you saying that if you use different JTV models on a per preset basis, that there is too much of a time switching gap on the JTV when it switches between its models? Or are you referring to the overall time switching gap which occurs when switching between presets? Are you making use of some kind of unique preset setup for your JTV? I ask, because I know several guitar players that use a JTV alone and/or a JTV+HD500/500X/Helix and there has never been a complaint about a delay gap when switching between JTV models.

 

I'm talking about switching models on the JVT using Helix's snapshots within a single preset.

 

The delay isn't horrible but has an audible dropout of a few milliseconds. You can compensate for it in some ways but, when playing live, the last thing I want to be thinking about is whether my guitar is gonna cut out for a split second when switching between a verse and a chorus.

 

Of course, this is splitting hairs a bit. First world problems, am I right?

[jshimkoski]

What you're experiencing isn't the expected behavior. There shouldn't be any issue with using a volume or wah pedal with snapshots. I've been doing this for months now (as a beta tester).

 

It sounds to me that perhaps the JTV volume saved with your snapshot is at zero in the input block. So when you go to a new snapshot, the volume of the guitar is dropping and the volume pedal has nothing to do with it.

 

I was thinking this as well but its definitely not the case. I tested this out with my Strat on a brand new preset as well, same issue.

[silverhead]

.... because I know several guitar players that use a JTV alone and/or a JTV+HD500/500X/Helix and there has never been a complaint about a delay gap when switching between JTV models.

I suspect that's because the delay in the preset switching on the POD HD or Helix device was greater than the delay in the JTV preset/model switching. Hence the Variax switching delay was hidden. Now that snapshots have reduced the need to suffer the lag on preset switching in Helix, and have also provided the capability to switch Variax models between snapshots, the lag in electronic (not manual) Variax model switching has been exposed for the first time. While it is undoubtedly measured in some relatively small number of milliseconds it is noticeable when switching electronically. It is not noticeable when switching manually because you do that with your hand and the new model is loaded and ready by the time you get your hand back to playing position. But you can switch snapshots with your foot while continuing to play sixteenth note arpeggios - and then you will notice it.

[phil_m]

I was thinking this as well but its definitely not the case. I tested this out with my Strat on a brand new preset as well, same issue.

 

I just thought of this... Remember that when you hit the toe switch, you are alternating between EXP1 and EXP2 on the Helix (assuming you don't have an external pedal connected to the EXP2 jack). So it could be that when you switch snapshots, you could have the wrong one selected. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that's it. When you turn off the volume pedal with the toe switch you also switch from EXP1 to EXP2 (or vice versa), and if you switch presets while the volume pedal is bypassed, and then it turns on in the new snapshot, the actual controller for it, is inactive... Remembering now, I did have this happen once. The problem is that prior to snapshots, the bypass and EXP toggle were always tied together. Now it's possible to break that link.

[jshimkoski]

I just thought of this... Remember that when you hit the toe switch, you are alternating between EXP1 and EXP2 on the Helix. So it could be that when you switch snapshots, you could have the wrong one selected. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that's it. When you turn off the volume pedal with the toe switch you also switch from EXP1 to EXP2 (or vice versa), and if you switch presets while the volume pedal is bypassed, and then it turns on in the new snapshot, the actual controller for it, is inactive... Remembering now, I did have this happen once. The problem is that prior to snapshots, the bypass and EXP toggle were always tied together. Now it's possible to break that link.

 

1. Create a new brand new preset and just add a volume block.

2. Move the expression pedal to ensure the volume is correctly changing.

3. Go to snapshot 2 and ensure the volume block is on and functioning via the expression pedal.

4. Go back to snapshot 1 and press the expression pedal. The volume block dims and bypasses, correctly.

5. Go to snapshot 2, the volume block will be enabled but the expression pedal doesn't work (since your on Exp 2).

6. If you press the expression pedal button (to go back to Exp 1), it disables the volume block (correctly)... which leads to the problem. The volume block is stuck between two different states in the different snapshots.

 

This is why I think having Preset Global Blocks are important. It'll get around this ugliness.

[phil_m]

1. Create a new brand new preset and just add a volume block.

2. Move the expression pedal to ensure the volume is correctly changing.

3. Go to snapshot 2 and ensure the volume block is on and functioning via the expression pedal.

4. Go back to snapshot 1 and press the expression pedal. The volume block dims and bypasses, correctly.

5. Go to snapshot 2, the volume block will be enabled but the expression pedal doesn't work (since your on Exp 2).

6. If you press the expression pedal button (to go back to Exp 1), it disables the volume block (correctly)... which leads to the problem. The volume block is stuck between two different states in the different snapshots.

 

This is why I think having Preset Global Blocks are important. It'll get around this ugliness.

 

You could always assign the volume pedal bypass to some other footswitch, or you can just leave it unassigned altogether. Bypassing the volume pedal is actually a relatively rare thing unless you're using the onboard expression pedal for wah as well.

[jshimkoski]

You could always assign the volume pedal bypass to some other footswitch, or you can just leave it unassigned altogether. Bypassing the volume pedal is actually a relatively rare thing unless you're using the onboard expression pedal for wah as well.

 

That's the thing... switching between wah and volume (my original problem) is the biggest issue. Speaking of which, adding a wah into the mix only amplifies this issues.

 

That's why allowing a block to be a Preset Global Block would fix all of this. If the volume, wah, etc could say, "My state will be the same across all snapshots, even if my enabled/disabled state changes" that would fix this issue.

[phil_m]

That's the thing... switching between wah and volume (my original problem) is the biggest issue. Speaking of which, adding a wah into the mix only amplifies this issues.

 

That's why allowing a block to be a Preset Global Block would fix all of this. If the volume, wah, etc could say, "My state will be the same across all snapshots, even if my enabled/disabled state changes" that would fix this issue.

 

I get what you're saying, although, in a gigging situation, I can't imagine ever switching snapshots while the wah was active. As I said, I've been using snapshots for many months, for dozens of gigs, and it's never been an issue. The only time this happened for me was when I didn't hook up my external expression pedals. Also, that brings up another thing - once you hook up a pedal to the EXP2 jack, it's a total non-issue, because the onboard pedal is always EXP1 at that point. It just seems that assigning effects to the toe switch while you don't have anything attached EXP2 is the one exception... The issue isn't really the bypass state of the block as much as it is the toggling between EXP1 and EXP2.

[jshimkoski]

I get what you're saying, although, in a gigging situation, I can't imagine ever switching snapshots while the wah was active. As I said, I've been using snapshots for many months, for dozens of gigs, and it's never been an issue. The only time this happened for me was when I didn't hook up my external expression pedals. Also, that brings up another thing - once you hook up a pedal to the EXP2 jack, it's a total non-issue, because the onboard pedal is always EXP1 at that point. It just seems that assigning effects to the toe switch while you don't have anything attached EXP2 is the one exception... The issue isn't really the bypass state of the block as much as it is the toggling between EXP1 and EXP2.

 

That is true, however, I must counter with this: Not everyone uses external expression pedals and the Helix shouldn't assume as much.

 

The fact that this issue is already noted in the official documentation should be enough for Line 6 to focus on some sort of fix.

 

Who knows, maybe they already are? In any case, there is an idea scale for it anyway.

[jpdennis]

You could always assign the volume pedal bypass to some other footswitch, or you can just leave it unassigned altogether. Bypassing the volume pedal is actually a relatively rare thing unless you're using the onboard expression pedal for wah as well.

 

Phil,

 

I use the on-board pedal for volume then toe to switch to wah, toe to switch to filter, etc.  I have the Helix so I have nothing else to deal with (my all in one solution)  What, if anything, should I be aware of?  I haven't updated yet and since I have a gig tomorrow I am looking at the next time I have a whole 9 days in a row off.

 

Thanks for any direction here,

 

Dennis

[phil_m]

Phil,

 

I use the on-board pedal for volume then toe to switch to wah, toe to switch to filter, etc.  I have the Helix so I have nothing else to deal with (my all in one solution)  What, if anything, should I be aware of?  I haven't updated yet and since I have a gig tomorrow I am looking at the next time I have a whole 9 days in a row off.

 

Thanks for any direction here,

 

Dennis

 

In this type of scenario, which is probably very common, as long as you set up you snapshots so the volume pedal block is on in every snapshot, you should be fine. Typically, you would be in a snapshot, turn on the wah or filter or whatever you assigned to the expression pedal, use that for a little bit, and then select another snapshot. So as long as you don't change snapshots while you have the other effect activated, you'll be OK.

[jpdennis]

In this type of scenario, which is probably very common, as long as you set up you snapshots so the volume pedal block is on in every snapshot, you should be fine. Typically, you would be in a snapshot, turn on the wah or filter or whatever you assigned to the expression pedal, use that for a little bit, and then select another snapshot. So as long as you don't change snapshots while you have the other effect activated, you'll be OK.

 

If I upgrade before the gig tomorrow I am just thinking to use my normal stomp mode with a preset, not a snapshot.

 

Thoughts?

 

Dennis

[phil_m]

If I upgrade before the gig tomorrow I am just thinking to use my normal stomp mode with a preset, not a snapshot.

 

Thoughts?

 

Dennis

 

Well, that would make sense... To be honest, if it were me, I wouldn't do the update the day before a gig. I think the chance of something happening is very low, but, still... It's just another thing to worry about. If you're not going to have to time to actually take advantage of the new features before your gig, it's not really going to benefit you much to install the update now. If it were a few days before a show, I'd probably say go ahead. But the night before... I don't know.

[jpdennis]

Well, that would make sense... To be honest, if it were me, I wouldn't do the update the day before a gig. I think the chance of something happening is very low, but, still... It's just another thing to worry about. If you're not going to have to time to actually take advantage of the new features before your gig, it's not really going to benefit you much to install the update now. If it were a few days before a show, I'd probably say go ahead. But the night before... I don't know.

 

+1

[garymwest]

Glanced through this thread and don't have time to think about it but remember you can shunt exp2 out to disable it and you can set Snaps to discard changes when changing a snap in a preset. Maybe this helps :)

[phil_m]

+1

 

Funny thing is I just went against my own advice here... I have a gig tomorrow, and I decided to install the "real" 2.0 update tonight... (I was using the last "release candidate" version prior to this). Update went through fine... I've probably re-flashed my Helix about 2 dozen times or more since having it. It's always been a very smooth process for me.

[jpdennis]

Funny thing is I just went against my own advice here... I have a gig tomorrow, and I decided to install the "real" 2.0 update tonight... (I was using the last "release candidate" version prior to this). Update went through fine... I've probably re-flashed my Helix about 2 dozen times or more since having it. It's always been a very smooth process for me.

 

Phil,

 

You know I'm going to update as soon as I can (read when I get home).  :ph34r:  Too many great reviews about the positive side of this update. B)

 

Dennis

[jshimkoski]

Phil,

 

You know I'm going to update as soon as I can (read when I get home).  :ph34r:  Too many great reviews about the positive side of this update. B)

 

Dennis

Despite the single hang up I started this thread for, this update is truly amazing. Snapshots have completely changed the Helix workflow for the better. I'm hoping a fix (possibly the Present Global Blocks??) will come along sooner rather than later but I'll take that one downfall any day over not having snapshots.

 

If you do decide to upgrade before your gig... Just ignore snapshots until after you play. They aren't intrusive and can easily be ignored if you really want to.... (You won't want to).