Fact: Two amps often cancel each other out.

[donnyedge]

Two marshalls

two twins

even two different amps

 

comments? Solutions? Me an bobo seems help sometimes but what is the answer and the problem

I am going to experiment with two outputs two morrow

 

anyone? 

I should have said: On my Hd500x , two amp Models cancel each other either out or in some significant tonal way.  

I have rarely tried playing with two real amps in stereo and jumping inputs on my real marshalls or bassman works.

I have not tried yet with two OUTPUTS and two amp  models.

but it seems in the digital world I should just get the layer of two amps and sometimes I seem too, where others....well great differences are apparent. 

I suppose I should make a you tube demo. 

 

Thanks

[bjnette]

Yes, I love the subject of sound cancellation and phasing.

In the real world two amps would cancel each other out but

in the digital world no air so doesnt happen.

Now if we were to set the two outputs toward each other quite some distance apart

instead of the usual triangular shape set for listening and we were midway with our head 

and ears/

There is a good chance there could be alot of phasing 

[donnyedge]

thank you for your reply.

[eenymason]

So, would an answer to this be, to go for the mixture of TONE that the two amps give, and not actually pan them fully L/R in the mixer block?

Or would phase cancellation still occur?

[pianoguyy]

The actual answer (which is the answer to most problems) is: 

 

If it doesn't sound good, change it. 

 

 

It is possible to get a beautiful sound from a phase canceled sound. It is possible to get a horrible sound from one amp. 

All of the science behind the whos and the whats, none of that really matters. All that matters is - twist the knobs until it sounds good. 

 

 

 

 

 

BUT
to answer the questions -

There are amps that do not cancel each other out - someone made a chart.
An easy solution would be to add some panning if you are using two outputs, or add some delay to one of them if you are using one output. You would be amazed at what a 1 micro-second difference makes when dealing with tones that vibrate at 110hertz a second

[Brazzy]

So, would an answer to this be, to go for the mixture of TONE that the two amps give, and not actually pan them fully L/R in the mixer block?

Or would phase cancellation still occur?

[Brazzy]

Take some of the patches you can find at the Meambobo Toneguide page and disassemble them see what does what and baby step it. Best of all have patience.

 

Check this vid out.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39rvm-peVMg

 

Loved how the guy set it up and the use of the EQs.

 

BTW loved Prong and still have some old cassettes of them \m/

 

-B

[BillBee]

Man always a good topic - there was an older thread here where Radatats found that the Vintage Preamp EQ can be used for phase corrections.

[AlexKenivel]

I used a combination of the 5150 and Big Bottom amps for a few months straight because of the cool phasey sound I got from it.

[donnyedge]

Thank you very much for all your replies. 

[donnyedge]

In Meanbobo, he mentions getting the elusive really clean tone. this is what is I am pursuing.  I have tried his dual cab approach which is where the amp cancel problem came up. I am also trying his , low master protocol and boosting the amp signal with EQ or tube compressor. All great fun. 

[Rewolf48]

It is a pain - I was in on those original threads with 'bobbo and it is basically down to path A requiring a different amount of processing to path B and so one is delayed relative to the other and this results in comb filtering rather than phase issues.  MeAmBobbo's solution was to stick EQs in on path or other to try and sync them back up again and what we really wanted (and asked Line 6 for) was a way to sync them either by adding a relative delay option to the mixer along with a phase inversion for when the amplification stages are genuinely unbalanced and one signal is inverted and cancelling.

 

Unfortunately we only got the vintage-pre with the phase inversion option and that doesn't always work.  It is not too bad when you feed separate speakers but the effect can be really bad when you mix them to mono and there is not a lot you can do except waste blocks on Studio EQ that are set flat.

 

Still struggling with it myself when mixing Acoustic and Electric as the in between positions can be dreadful with a slight amount of the other signal added causing the overall level to fall.  I think I head something that implied the problem was fixed on Helix, but that doesn't help HD500 owners

[bjnette]

If you don't think there would be any phase issue playing the same dual amps live into a stereo PA unless mono'd you'd be mistaken.

The low end tends to be omnidirectional and if you understand how sound spreading throughout a room works.

As sounds vibrate out in all directions from a single source reflects from walls and objects and these interact with the original and cause null points;diminished vibration. Reinforced nodes; embellished vibration where the combination increases amplitude. These nulls and nodes are known as ratification

Thus there is Line Array PA systems that use speaker arrays delayed at increased times as the Arrays are placed deeper in an auditorium, theater or stadium.  Now all seats get a good sound. 

 

In recording it is common to double track and it is seen as desirable adding a sense of chorus to the track when panned hard left or right. The additional track is not played exactly the same way and is by definition a chorus.  But when mono'd sounds much thinner than one only track when the same tone is used. 

 

This is really what comb filtering is. It is two different sources with similar tonal qualities nulling and reinforcing certain frequencies when combined and can be desirable when it tends to cancel the low end and tightens certain desirable frequencies. It is also shifting about depending upon where/what notes are played.

 

It use to be common practice for guitars playing live to double parts on different positions on the neck using different pick ups and amp tonal settings including very different amps to have guitars that enhance the overall sound and minimize wiping each other out. This is true for all types of instruments.

 

This is a real pre production territory as even placing one of the amps off the ground can preserve two guitar tones.

This is very well known in orchestral music; where the instruments are placed is not just out of tradition.

 

If you take away anything from this it would be;

Use very differing amp models when adding a dual amp. 

Delay shifts between amps will be more problematic when they are of similar tonality. Tweak the frequency response of each amp so when they combine it is an enhancement. Use less distortion and go for dryer tonality in both amps but more so in one of them so too for double tracking.

Use EQ to roll off low end and get more headroom or your tracks could sound thinner not be heard yet still push your VU meters.

[donnyedge]

The actual answer (which is the answer to most problems) is: 

 

If it doesn't sound good, change it. 

 

 

It is possible to get a beautiful sound from a phase canceled sound. It is possible to get a horrible sound from one amp. 

All of the science behind the whos and the whats, none of that really matters. All that matters is - twist the knobs until it sounds good. 

 

 

 

 

 

BUT

to answer the questions -

There are amps that do not cancel each other out - someone made a chart.

An easy solution would be to add some panning if you are using two outputs, or add some delay to one of them if you are using one output. You would be amazed at what a 1 micro-second difference makes when dealing with tones that vibrate at 110hertz a second

more of a response than an answer really, but thank you for your reply. an answer would address the topic, where your reply is along the lines of: if you car doesn't start, buy a new car. Curious people( although not necessarily highly intelligent people) often want to talk with other curious people as to WHY things are as they are as opposed to 'What do you want'. Please don't think I am singling you out, your response is so quite common as to inspire my direct observations on this type of response, it is not unlike the famous 'Why would you want to do that?', to which the answer is often 'to see what happens'. 

How for example does the phasing exist in the electronic realm, I wonder? Is it really at the digital level? That is intriguing to me. 

again thank you for your response. 

[donnyedge]

If you don't think there would be any phase issue playing the same dual amps live into a stereo PA unless mono'd you'd be mistaken.

The low end tends to be omnidirectional and if you understand how sound spreading throughout a room works.

As sounds vibrate out in all directions from a single source reflects from walls and objects and these interact with the original and cause null points;diminished vibration. Reinforced nodes; embellished vibration where the combination increases amplitude. These nulls and nodes are known as ratification

Thus there is Line Array PA systems that use speaker arrays delayed at increased times as the Arrays are placed deeper in an auditorium, theater or stadium.  Now all seats get a good sound. 

 

In recording it is common to double track and it is seen as desirable adding a sense of chorus to the track when panned hard left or right. The additional track is not played exactly the same way and is by definition a chorus.  But when mono'd sounds much thinner than one only track when the same tone is used. 

 

This is really what comb filtering is. It is two different sources with similar tonal qualities nulling and reinforcing certain frequencies when combined and can be desirable when it tends to cancel the low end and tightens certain desirable frequencies. It is also shifting about depending upon where/what notes are played.

 

It use to be common practice for guitars playing live to double parts on different positions on the neck using different pick ups and amp tonal settings including very different amps to have guitars that enhance the overall sound and minimize wiping each other out. This is true for all types of instruments.

 

This is a real pre production territory as even placing one of the amps off the ground can preserve two guitar tones.

This is very well known in orchestral music; where the instruments are placed is not just out of tradition.

 

If you take away anything from this it would be;

Use very differing amp models when adding a dual amp. 

Delay shifts between amps will be more problematic when they are of similar tonality. Tweak the frequency response of each amp so when they combine it is an enhancement. Use less distortion and go for dryer tonality in both amps but more so in one of them so too for double tracking.

Use EQ to roll off low end and get more headroom or your tracks could sound thinner not be heard yet still push your VU meters.

thank you

I shall have to set up a consistent test preset to investigate this phenomena.  I will report my findings. although I don't really understand where the cancell out phenomena occurs. Very interesting. The only model where it really wiped out the other amp is one of the Marshalls. 

[donnyedge]

Yes, but still I am curious as to the process. Because the effect is not consistent with all models. Thank you for your reply.

[donnyedge]

It is a pain - I was in on those original threads with 'bobbo and it is basically down to path A requiring a different amount of processing to path B and so one is delayed relative to the other and this results in comb filtering rather than phase issues.  MeAmBobbo's solution was to stick EQs in on path or other to try and sync them back up again and what we really wanted (and asked Line 6 for) was a way to sync them either by adding a relative delay option to the mixer along with a phase inversion for when the amplification stages are genuinely unbalanced and one signal is inverted and cancelling.

 

Unfortunately we only got the vintage-pre with the phase inversion option and that doesn't always work.  It is not too bad when you feed separate speakers but the effect can be really bad when you mix them to mono and there is not a lot you can do except waste blocks on Studio EQ that are set flat.

 

Still struggling with it myself when mixing Acoustic and Electric as the in between positions can be dreadful with a slight amount of the other signal added causing the overall level to fall.  I think I head something that implied the problem was fixed on Helix, but that doesn't help HD500 owners

Thank you

Yeah I have been trying EQ but today ran into more of same. could be a dead end.

Thanks again

[Giorgos02]

The actual answer (which is the answer to most problems) is: 

 

If it doesn't sound good, change it. 

 

 

It is possible to get a beautiful sound from a phase canceled sound. It is possible to get a horrible sound from one amp. 

All of the science behind the whos and the whats, none of that really matters. All that matters is - twist the knobs until it sounds good. 

 

 

 

 

 

BUT

to answer the questions -

There are amps that do not cancel each other out - someone made a chart.

An easy solution would be to add some panning if you are using two outputs, or add some delay to one of them if you are using one output. You would be amazed at what a 1 micro-second difference makes when dealing with tones that vibrate at 110hertz a second

 

 

Very good answer! Exactly what I wanted to say!

 

I have never seen this chart of the amps that do not cancer each other out. Would you be willing to post it here? 

 

Thanks in advance! :)

[pianoguyy]

Very good answer! Exactly what I wanted to say!

 

I have never seen this chart of the amps that do not cancer each other out. Would you be willing to post it here? 

 

Thanks in advance! :)

 

I don't remember who it was. 

But they did dual amp chart that showed a bunch of different variables. 

 

I work under a non-scientific rule - if it don't sound good, change it. So, I didn't bother to save the information. 

[mattbarden]

I think meambobo came to the conclusion it was the mic combinations that caused the phasing issues that cancel or wash out the dual amps. Check out his guide, he has a list of what plays nicely together.

[brue58ski]

I don't remember who it was. 

But they did dual amp chart that showed a bunch of different variables. 

 

I work under a non-scientific rule - if it don't sound good, change it. So, I didn't bother to save the information. 

 

Here's the aforementioned chart

 

PDF

 

http://www.foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/tripGuitar_cab_delay.pdf

 

or

 

Excel Spreadsheet

 

http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/CabsDelayTimes_V3.xlsx

[pianoguyy]

HA

I thought it was the queer that posts "how to" videos on YouTube. The one that is always crying.

[Indianrock2020]

Using dual amps almost exclusively now.  Seems, more, "robust."    But I always use one of these MeamBobo "approved" combinations of cabs/mics:    http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/cabsMics#dualCab-faves

 

Otherwise I make sure both amps use exactly the same cab and mic.