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sheehanje

First live gig with Helix 2.0 - couple issues

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So I finally got to get a good test of the Helix at a my bands CD release show. 

 

First of all - I run the Helix vie 4CM into a Mesa JP-2C and use Midi to switch settings on my amp.   Works like a charm for the most part.

 

The first issue I had is one of my snapshots was not saved - I had to recreate it before the show.  Don't know what happened, but it reverted to "Snapshot 4" and had none of the settings.  I hit save about 20 times every time I tweak settings.

 

Anyways - the bigger issue was during the performance, I have one snapshot that switches to channel 3 on my amp, turns on delay and turns on my wah.  It's called Lead w/Wah - ingenious, right?

 

Anyways, I hit it at the show, my wah pedal was toe down - but when I hit the snapshot, wah started and stayed in heel position.  Ended up scratching that patch for the one other song I was going to use it for that night and went to my Lead snapshot and engaged the wah manually.

 

Other than that (which kind of blew the lead on one of our songs, it was 3 measures in before I recovered by switching to another snap) - the setup worked and sounded great all night.  Gotta figure this one out before the next show - I've really come to like engaging that snapshot for leads that start with the wah engaged.

 

 

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My first off-the-top-of-head thought would be to go into that snapshot and make sure that the expression pedal is still set to be the controller for the wah position - EXP assignments can be controlled/changed via Snapshots; and unintentional assign/de-assign maybe?

 

I'm going to try to run an experiment - but I often assume I'll get slightly different results being as I'm using Rack/Controller. Some of the niggles that've shown up with the floor unit are non-issues by nature of the fact that there's no single EXP that switches to 1/2.

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If you plu a shorted jack into the EXP2 input you will only hace EXP1 to turn on and off.
This works good without issues as far as I can see.
 
This is what I use:

post-90313-0-24376800-1468870668_thumb.jpg

 

B)

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The wah doesn't work right with snapshots. 

I finally just removed the wah from the chain. :(

I'll put it back in when Line 6 gets it figured out. :)

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If you put a shorted jack in the EXP2 input in the back you only have EXP1 left.

Then it works fine

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Several other guys and I have all had issues with the toe switch and the expression pedal with snapshots. If you switch snapshots with the toe switch engaged, the expression pedal effectively doesn't work, because for some reason, it tracks the position of the disabled effect, rather than the enabled effect.

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Several other guys and I have all had issues with the toe switch and the expression pedal with snapshots. If you switch snapshots with the toe switch engaged, the expression pedal effectively doesn't work, because for some reason, it tracks the position of the disabled effect, rather than the enabled effect.

 

The reason is because hitting the toe switch also what controller the on-board pedal is controlling - EXP1 or EXP2 - when you don't have an external pedal connected to the EXP2 jack. So if you switch snapshots after hitting the toe switch once, your effects' bypass states will be misaligned with the active controller. It's not really unexpected behavior or a bug, it's just a limitation that you need to be aware if you're not using an external pedal and you're switching snapshots. As long as you hit the toe switch again before switching snapshots, things will work as expected.

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That's exactly what I figured was happening, but I disagree that it is not unexpected and not a bug. Can you think of any reason that you'd want your expression controller to become out of sync when switching to another snapshot? It's not a featute--it's a bug.

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I love my Helix, but this is a bug. There is no way that anyone ever expects that by switching snapshots their expression pedal will be unusable unless they engage the toe switch again and hit *another* snapshot.

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The reason is because hitting the toe switch also what controller the on-board pedal is controlling - EXP1 or EXP2 - when you don't have an external pedal connected to the EXP2 jack. So if you switch snapshots after hitting the toe switch once, your effects' bypass states will be misaligned with the active controller. It's not really unexpected behavior or a bug, it's just a limitation that you need to be aware if you're not using an external pedal and you're switching snapshots. As long as you hit the toe switch again before switching snapshots, things will work as expected.

Tha explains why Tals solution above would work.

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I love my Helix, but this is a bug. There is no way that anyone ever expects that by switching snapshots their expression pedal will be unusable unless they engage the toe switch again and hit *another* snapshot.

 

It's not a bug because it's exactly the way it was designed to work. It's just that there are two functionalities that under certain circumstance can cause a behavior that's not desirable. That's not the same thing as a bug. I'm really arguing as to whether it's the best possible design (although, I'm not sure how it could be changed in a way that makes it impossible to mess stuff up) - all I'm saying is it can't be called a bug simply because it's just part of the designed functionality at the moment.

 

I mean, there are plenty of other ways you can mess things up in the Helix, too. It's not really designed to be foolproof. It's designed to be flexible.

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I love my Helix, but this is a bug. There is no way that anyone ever expects that by switching snapshots their expression pedal will be unusable unless they engage the toe switch again and hit *another* snapshot.

 

I'd have to agree. Having to keep a mental state of the device to predict what will happen when I hit a FW is the exact opposite of everything they've achieved w/Helix.  I love that I don't have to memorize what FS X does due to scribble strips, the camera icons, colored rings, etc.  I can just play.

 

It also hurts usability since I can't just leave the snapshot; I now have to tap dance to keep things in sync.  I have an actual wah I can put in the loop but I'd rather not go that route.  It's more cables, batteries, etc and I like the different sounding wah models.

 

I know there's a blurb in the user manual, so obviously something they're aware of, but it's very unintuitive.  Hopefully this can be addressed as it's a quirk I'd rather not have to internalize.

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It's not a bug because it's exactly the way it was designed to work. It's just that there are two functionalities that under certain circumstance can cause a behavior that's not desirable. That's not the same thing as a bug. I'm really arguing as to whether it's the best possible design (although, I'm not sure how it could be changed in a way that makes it impossible to mess stuff up) - all I'm saying is it can't be called a bug simply because it's just part of the designed functionality at the moment.

 

I mean, there are plenty of other ways you can mess things up in the Helix, too. It's not really designed to be foolproof. It's designed to be flexible.

Phil...you might be going too far out on a limb here. :)

You're sounding like Bill Clinton back in the 1990's when he said: "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

 
lol!
"Bug" or not...it IS what it IS. And it sucks when you're playing live. I'm sure Line 6 is taking a look at that to "fix" it (or whatever word would define what they will do to make the thing work the way it should) :)

 

Until then...I'm just not using a wah. 

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At minimum, there should be a global setting to do what the dummy plug does. Glad there's a workaround today, but it's a predictable problem, and that solution is goofy.

 

This seems related to the fact that if a footswitch turns block A on and block B off, then you recall a snapshot that turns one of those off, they're now out of sync (really, IN sync, opposite what you wanted), because the footswitch still just toggles both of them. It's much less clear how to make that better than the wah issue is.

 

Snapshots are great, but some of the current behaviors are not.

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Phil...you might be going too far out on a limb here. :)

You're sounding like Bill Clinton back in the 1990's when he said: "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

 
lol!
"Bug" or not...it IS what it IS. And it sucks when you're playing live. I'm sure Line 6 is taking a look at that to "fix" it (or whatever word would define what they will do to make the thing work the way it should) :)

 

Until then...I'm just not using a wah. 

 

 

Well, no point in arguing about semantics (even though I know I'm right, lol... :) )

 

I am genuinely curious, though, and I'm asking this respectfully, why you wouldn't just switch the wah off before switching to a new snapshot? Typically, even if I were using a wah pedal with a real pedalboard, I would never switch another pedal on without turning the wah off first.

 

Anyway, I can think of one simple way to make this better, and I suspect Line 6 is working on it... :ph34r:

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Sorry, @phil_m, as a software dev, the way you are defending it to me seems to be reationalizing a defect. Look, if other devices with a similar expression and toe switch setup can switch presets without having issues, then Helix should be able to, as well, using similar logic. I do software research and development for a living--the logic involved is not as difficult as you make it out to be.

 

I agree with everybody else. The workarounds are goofy, and given that the workarounds are consistent, automating them throughs settings would be trivial.

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@phil_m, that's like asking why you wouldn't manually switch off all your effects in manual mode before switching snapshots. Same answer.

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All I'm saying is a bad design choice isn't the same as a bug... The former is intentional, the latter is not. Sheesh... I'm not rationalizing anything other than saying the way it's acting now is per design. If you think it sucks, ask them to change it.

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I am genuinely curious, though, and I'm asking this respectfully, why you wouldn't just switch the wah off before switching to a new snapshot? Typically, even if I were using a wah pedal with a real pedalboard, I would never switch another pedal on without turning the wah off first.

 

Anyway, I can think of one simple way to make this better, and I suspect Line 6 is working on it... :ph34r:

 

Good to know that Line 6 is on top of it. :)

 

As for your question...here is the scenario: 

I'm playing a gig. I'm singing the song. The last note I sing is held while I launch into the lead break. This lead requires wah pedal. I have the "lead snapshot" right beside the "crunch snapshot"

As I sing the last note, I kick on the lead. As I'm playing the first note of the lead, I stomp on that infernal toe switch to activate the wah and now I'm all good.

 

As the guitar solo ends...I'm coming straight back into vocals and rhythm guitar.

 

NOW...I have to somehow finish the lead break, dance on that toe switch and then switch back to my rhythm guitar snapshot. All without screwing up the end of the lead, the first chords coming out of the lead, and the vocals. :(

 

What I have done in the past is simply go to the crunch sound, get in my first chord and vocals and then fumble around with that hellspawn toe-switch lol

At least then I was able to keep some illusion of cohesion in the music.

 

Not possible now at all.

 

In my humble opinion...for a LIVE guitarist onstage who also sings...the optimal thing would be for the wah bypass to be unaffected by snapshots. Like a "real" wah does when you have it in front of a real amp.

And then in "awesome world" it would also not require the toe-switch to activate. But simply work by moving the pedal and turn off by raising the pedal all the way....but that's another story for another day. :)

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I'm not trying to dog you, but I can't think of a scenario in which getting out of sync would be intentionally designed into it, especially since the behavior isn't there when switching presets. The inconsistency, lack of a justifying scenario, and going against expected behavior all are generally indications that something is a QED bug and not an intentional feature. Unless Line 6 tells us that they intentionally wanted this, all indications point to a software bug, which I have no doubt which they can and will fix easily. In the meantime I'll try the goofy plug workaround.

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I'm not trying to dog you, but I can't think of a scenario in which getting out of sync would be intentionally designed into it, especially since the behavior isn't there when switching presets. The inconsistency, lack of a justifying scenario, and going against expected behavior all are generally indications that something is a QED bug and not an intentional feature. Unless Line 6 tells us that they intentionally wanted this, all indications point to a software bug, which I have no doubt which they can and will fix easily. In the meantime I'll try the goofy plug workaround.

 

Well, what's the bug they need to fix exactly? There are two things going on. The first is that without a pedal plugged into the EXP2 jack, the toe switch toggles between EXP1 and EXP2 - this is the designed functionality. This happens in all modes as it stands now. The second thing is that snapshots save the bypass state of blocks. So it's just that because both of these things are dynamic and user-controlled in real-time, right now, it's possible for them to get out of sync. What is the bug that you would fix in this situation? I can think a few ways to address it in the way of adding some new features, but given the current feature set, it's not like there's something that's not currently working that needs fixed.

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Simple. The snapshot saves what the toggle has switched to. The same thing it does for presets.

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I was able to make it work on my Helix.  You just won't be able to use the wah in the rest of the patch (although you could probably add another wah pedal and use it that way).

 

Did you figure it out?  If not I can explain how I got it to work.  It's very simple actually.

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Don't I remember that there's a setting to discard snapshot edits automatically unless you explicitly save them? Would that fix some of this?

 

I haven't played w snapshots much at all yet or I'd know that already, but some of their limitations have made me unsure how to use them without losing functionality I have now, namely...

- The way you have to navigate between presets, snapshots, and stomps seems awkward to me, extra switch presses, stepping on two switches at once, yadda.

- The limitation of only 8 snaps. It's not the number really, it's that my current life is 10 switches mode, which I think would work as 5 snaps and 5 stomps, except that you only get 2 banks of 4 snaps.

- The fact that you can't have a snapshot that DOESN'T remember the active blocks, only parameter changes. Need that because my bottom right switch is almost always Boost, just a volume parameter change. If  one row was snaps, I couldn't do that, and I do actually want 5 stomp switches, so Boost can't go in that row either.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Helix, and snapshots too, in theory, but either I haven't figured out how to best use them, or some some usability tweaks are needed.

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Zooey, that doesn't fix this, unfortunately. Hollis, I'm not sure how that solves the issue.

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Simple. The snapshot saves what the toggle has switched to. The same thing it does for presets.

 

Are saying the EXP1/EXP2 state should be saved along with the snapshot? Like when you bring up a snapshot, the expression pedal selection always goes to the saved value? Yeah, that certainly seems doable.

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OK.  Here is my fix.

 

Manually turn on the Wah with the "BYPASS" button (next to "ACTION").  This will not change the Exp pedal.

Verify that the Wah is working by using the Exp pedal.  If it is not working change the Controller assignment to the other Exp pedal (1 or 2).

The Helix remembers the location of the Exp pedal so make sure the pedal is at 100% (toe down) when you save the patch so it will be at that point when you hit your snapshot.

 

This should "fix" your issue. Let me know what concerns or issues you have and I will try to resolve with what is available.

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Not a bug, not a feature, by design maybe but a quirk for sure. Need to implement exeption in the FW to prevent it. Or to make it more friendly to a guitar player that get lost in music and not limited by footstep's recipe.

 

Did I mentionned I love the 2.0 update? Man it's so much more than just enough.

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Don't I remember that there's a setting to discard snapshot edits automatically unless you explicitly save them? Would that fix some of this?

 

I was thinking that; there should be at least some option to 'force' whatever you have saved in any given snapshot, and not have it be subject to whether or not you manually turned on or off a delay, or in this case, a wah. Though it seems to be two variants of an issue:

 

1.) whether the snapshot preserves or discards the block on/off status when changing snapshots. IE,l wah is off in crunch snapshot, wah is manually on when you are playing on lead snapshot; switch to crunch snapshot, wah block turns off or wah block stays on, according to Helix setting.

 

HOWEVER. It seems there is maybe not a setting to tell it what to do with that controller toe switch toggle, IE, 'resetting' it's understanding of the toe switch position as conforms to the snapshot being chosen. For example, if you are using the wah, it's both activated by the toe switch, but also the controller is changed. It's more than an effect on or off. Not sure it currently gives you the option to do that kind of controller over-ride per snapshot, but I can totally understand why you would want to!

 

Especially with delay and reverb trails. Come out a screaming lead tone with the wah on pushing the high freqs into overdrive; drop out into a different snapshot which would ideally, 1.) turn off the wah, 2.) enable the controller for the volume pedal. 

 

It's almost like you need the toe switch to only toggle the on/off status of your volume and wah pedals, inverse from each other, but keep both on the same EXP controller assignment. IE, toe switch to  NOT toggle between EXP 1 and EXP 2, instead having assigned both wah and volume to exp, and use toe switch to toggle on on and one off? There is probably some really obvious reason that won't work; I am not with my Helix, so I can only theorize!

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Sorry, @phil_m, as a software dev, the way you are defending it to me seems to be reationalizing a defect. Look, if other devices with a similar expression and toe switch setup can switch presets without having issues, then Helix should be able to, as well, using similar logic. I do software research and development for a living--the logic involved is not as difficult as you make it out to be.

 

I agree with everybody else. The workarounds are goofy, and given that the workarounds are consistent, automating them throughs settings would be trivial.

 

I don't see Phil_m really defending the situation or making it out to be difficult to fix.

All he's saying is that it's not a bug, which it really isn't. There's no code going haywire or doing unexpected things.

What this is though is missing functionality which does make the snapshot's a little problematic to use with Wah.

I wouldn't call a car without GPS being a bug, right?

 

I'm sure Line6 will resolve this.

Either make my workaround an option in the software (it really is goofy but it works).

Or save the state of the pedal (EXP1 or EXP2) in the snapshot. That way it will switch back to the desired state whe going to another snapshot.

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I'm not trying to dog you, but I can't think of a scenario in which getting out of sync would be intentionally designed into it, especially since the behavior isn't there when switching presets. The inconsistency, lack of a justifying scenario, and going against expected behavior all are generally indications that something is a QED bug and not an intentional feature. Unless Line 6 tells us that they intentionally wanted this, all indications point to a software bug, which I have no doubt which they can and will fix easily. In the meantime I'll try the goofy plug workaround.

Not a bug. It's a problem that surfaced when adding new features (snapshots) on top of the old.

A worst it's something in the workflow that needs to be ironed out. There is no faulty programming involved. it's a design problem not a bug.

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OK.  Here is my fix.

 

Manually turn on the Wah with the "BYPASS" button (next to "ACTION").  This will not change the Exp pedal.

Verify that the Wah is working by using the Exp pedal.  If it is not working change the Controller assignment to the other Exp pedal (1 or 2).

The Helix remembers the location of the Exp pedal so make sure the pedal is at 100% (toe down) when you save the patch so it will be at that point when you hit your snapshot.

 

This should "fix" your issue. Let me know what concerns or issues you have and I will try to resolve with what is available.

 

I will give this a try tonight.

 

The one thing baffling to me is I tried my patches before the gig and they seemed to work as desired - it must have been that I left my wah on when moving to test another snapshot.   But I want the Wah to always turn on (and be in toe position) in the particular snapshot I had an issue with.

 

I should have some time to play with it tonight.

 

As for whether it's a bug or not - doesn't really matter either way - I'm not getting the desired behavior.  Hopefully one of the workarounds mentioned will work for me - I have one particular song we do live that having a snapshot change to my lead sound with the wah on in toe position will make it that much easier to wail into it.

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Not a bug. It's a problem that surfaced when adding new features (snapshots) on top of the old.

A worst it's something in the workflow that needs to be ironed out. There is no faulty programming involved. it's a design problem not a bug.

Actually, what you described would qualify as a bug in the software dev world. When you make changes and it introduces unexpected and undesirable behavior, that is a kind of software bug. I've introduced and fixed a fair share of that kind at my work. Perhaps it's not in the same vein as the others that are talked about, but it's still a bug.

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I will give this a try tonight.

 

The one thing baffling to me is I tried my patches before the gig and they seemed to work as desired - it must have been that I left my wah on when moving to test another snapshot. But I want the Wah to always turn on (and be in toe position) in the particular snapshot I had an issue with.

 

I should have some time to play with it tonight.

 

As for whether it's a bug or not - doesn't really matter either way - I'm not getting the desired behavior. Hopefully one of the workarounds mentioned will work for me - I have one particular song we do live that having a snapshot change to my lead sound with the wah on in toe position will make it that much easier to wail into it.

I agree, you can argue semantics all you want on whether it meets someone's definition of a bug, but anyone who has experienced it would agree it's undesirable and unexpected. If they dont, I think they misunderstand the issue.

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I'd also like to confirm that Tal's shorted plug workaround works for my use case. However, the toe switch now disabled and enables all volume and gain blocks even when not assigned.

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I'm not sure I get the problem here. (Assuming you have no EXP 2 pedal or 'dummy plug' connected) if you want your Wah On/Off state to differ between snapshots, couldn't you simply NOT add a Volume block to your preset? Or, what if you remove the default Toe Switch assignment for the Wah and make a Bypass Assign to a FS 1- 10 for the Wah instead of the toe footswitch? In other words, if the issue is caused by the toe switch being 'shared' by the Wah and Vol, then wouldn't it resolve the problem by changing the default Bypass Assignment so that the Wah is not sharing the Toe Switch?

 

Or is there a Snapshots problem with the pedal controlling the Position parameter of the Wah? And if this is the issue, again, couldn't this be remedied by just changing the pedal assignment so that it is only controlling the Wah and not the Wah - Position or any other parameter?

 

Most Line 6 devices have always used this default behavior where the onboard pedal is 'shared' between Wah and Vol, and not shared when an EXP 2 pedal is connected, so it has always taken some similar planning to make sure your presets are configured accordingly for whether you have a 2nd pedal connected.

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Actually, what you described would qualify as a bug in the software dev world. When you make changes and it introduces unexpected and undesirable behavior, that is a kind of software bug. I've introduced and fixed a fair share of that kind at my work. Perhaps it's not in the same vein as the others that are talked about, but it's still a bug.

 

That would indeed be true if the behaviour was unexpected. Here this is not the case. The Helix behaved in this exact way before snapshots.

They introduced snapshots and in combination with this new feature the existing behaviour can be undesirable to some (maybe most).

This behaviour was not unexpected. It's like the fact that you can get into trouble with your snapshots if you have more blocks assigned to one switch. Line6 caught that one and put a warning in the release notes. or was it the manual, I don't remember.

It's a result of things getting more complicated when certain features are added.

 

Is it a problem that needs to be fixed? YES

 

​​Sorry for ranting on about such an unimportant issue: "Should it be called a bug or not?". I'm a bit anal when it comes to this kind of thing :unsure: 

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I agree, you can argue semantics all you want on whether it meets someone's definition of a bug, but anyone who has experienced it would agree it's undesirable and unexpected. If they dont, I think they misunderstand the issue.

 

Actually when I encountered the issue I though: "Damn that's irritating but yeah, that was to be expected. I hope they found a way to deal with this"

The I went to the forum to start a thread on it but found that someone beat me to it and the goofy workaround was suggested by someone.

Then I thought: "Great, a workaround for the time being Until Line6 six comes up with an elegant solution"

 

So yeah I think I understood the issue but didn't find it unexpected (damn, I'm being anal again :rolleyes: Sorry)

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