Please ensure Javascript is enabled for purposes of website accessibility Jump to content

Tuner


BigRalphN
 Share

Recommended Posts

I am not a science guy, but more likely what appears as random jumpiness is probably the indicator (umm) indicating small changes in pitch. I'd imagine minute defects in strings, moving the guitar slightly, etc would all cause this.

This is true, but the pitch instability of the string is not randomly jumping all over the place. You can see clearly with a strobe tuner the pitch 'wobble', and that wobble is easily seen as averaging around a central pitch. The average changes as you turn the tuning machine, but the string still varies around the central pitch. This is normal, and is the physics of the string.

 

However, the Helix indicator jumps around erratically and it takes longer to determine the average point. It still is usable, and allows the guitar to be tuned way more accurately than the pre-V2 tuner, but it's a bit nasty to look at.

 

Think of the string pitch invariance as a violinist's vibrato. The vibrato will sound out of tune if not centred around the correct pitch. A strobe tuner will show the pulsing vibrato as a nice low frequency movement around the centre pitch. The Helix tuner shows random points of that movement.

 

Reminds me of my first attempt at making a string vs sine pitch comparison back in the '90s for my first semester DSP course. I fixed the issue before submitting. This is not rocket science.

 

Is it usable? Definitely. Thanks Line6 for fixing the tuner so I can use it to tune my guitar accurately.

 

Can it be made more aesthetically pleasing (less jumpy)? Yes to that too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a process control problem. The error in pitch is proportional to the delta in pitch, how the pitch changes over time (integral), and how fast the pitch is changing (derivative). A PID algorithm (Porportional/Integral/Derivitive) can be used to tame the jumping around and make it easier to slowly zero in on the correct pitch. Line6 just needs to adjust the algorithm they are using to dampen the display changes into something that is more controllable. One of the best tuners for guitar I've ever used is the one in S-Gear. It has the sensitivity and accuracy down to 1cent, but has a damping algorithm that makes it easy to tune. I suspect Line6 will get to this in a future update. We're making progress.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Think it's been said, but neck pickup, tone control all the way down, 12th fret harmonic, and the display is pretty stable. Not perfectly so, but seem to me like that's Physics, and it's definitely usable. The high-res upper readout is helpful to me too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Think it's been said, but neck pickup, tone control all the way down, 12th fret harmonic, and the display is pretty stable. Not perfectly so, but seem to me like that's Physics, and it's definitely usable. The high-res upper readout is helpful to me too.

 

You are assuming everybody's intonation is perfect when you ask people to tune at the 12th fret harmonic.  Granted the intonation should be set correctly, but unfortunately that is not always the case. You should be able to tune from a variety of positions. I am not saying you can't now, the tuner has taken a giant step forward, I just don't think tuning from the 12th fret is going to work for everyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but harmonics don't involve the frets, just perfect mathematical divisions of the string length, so they're not subject to imperfect intonation.

 

It is true that a note fretted at the 12th fret might not be in tune with that harmonic if the intonation's off. However, the harmonic is inherently an exact octave higher than the open string, so if whatever tuner you have is happier reading that harmonic than the open string, it's valid to use it.

 

I'd never tune a guitar using any fretted notes. Fret and bridge positions are compromises, even on a well-intonated guitar, because the whole concept of a well-tempered scale is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but harmonics don't involve the frets, just perfect mathematical divisions of the string length, so they're not subject to imperfect intonation.

 

It is true that a note fretted at the 12th fret might not be in tune with that harmonic if the intonation's off. However, the harmonic is inherently an exact octave higher than the open string, so if whatever tuner you have is happier reading that harmonic than the open string, it's valid to use it.

 

I'd never tune a guitar using any fretted notes. Fret and bridge positions are compromises, even on a well-intonated guitar, because the whole concept of a well-tempered scale is.

 

Even though a fret is not involved, as I understand it, imperfect intonation will still effect trying to tune with a 12th fret harmonic. The 12th fret is now in a different place relative to the string, depending on how much longer or shorter the string is from nut to bridge as caused by the out of whack intonation. That means the harmonic you hit is actually subdividing the string in a different spot depending on intonation.

 

A perfectly intonated guitar gives you the same tuning for both an open string pluck and a 12th fret harmonic. If the guitar is not intonated (string length between bridge and nut is not correct) you can tune the open string perfectly, hit the 12th fret harmonic, and it will not be in exactly the same as the open string tuning, at least that is how I think it works. In other words, the 12th fret you are using as a guide to where to hit the harmonic, even though you are not pushing down and fretting, is delivering a harmonic that is not positioned at the half way mark of the string because you are out of intonation (discounting the fact that string length from nut to fret is usuaully slightly longer than twice the length from the nut to the 12th fret to "compensate" for proper saddle positioning)

 

It seems that the more out of intonation the guitar is, the more out of whack the 2 to 1 ratio at the 12th fret gets, even if you are simply using the 12th fret to guide where you touch for a harmonic.  Maybe I am incorrect, not willing to take my guitar out of intonation to test that theory. You could be right on this, I can't remember although I usually intonate my guitars by hitting an open string and perhaps a 12 fret harmonic as well as fretting at the 12th fret. Any pro luthiers or setup guys who can weigh in on this? I could be totally off base on this one.

 

Somewhat related Stew-Mac article on scale length

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Guitar_and_Instrument_Fretting_and_Fretw/Scale_Length_Explained.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also intonate (I figured everyone else did) open and @ the 12 fret. And yes a good tuner will show you that intonation is off at the 12th fret if it is. But your ears should tell you too. I don't think I could could set intonation correctly with the current Helix tuner because (i don't think) theres not enough information displayed to go by. Thats where a good strobe tuner comes into play at least for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also intonate (I figured everyone else did) open and @ the 12 fret. And yes a good tuner will show you that intonation is off at the 12th fret if it is. But your ears should tell you too. I don't think I could could set intonation correctly with the current Helix tuner because (i don't think) theres not enough information displayed to go by. Thats where a good strobe tuner comes into play at least for me.

 

Thanks for the input on this. I wouldn't have blamed anyone for chiming in with "the obvious answer to this debate is intonate your damn guitar".  I was just thinking out loud that tuning to the 12th fret harmonic might yield some unreliable results, particularly for chords and notes played closer to the nut, on a guitar that is out of intonation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you do a 12th fret harmonic, you're just touching the string there, not pushing it down on the fret. That makes the place you touched not vibrate much, creating a non-moving node there, effectively dividing the string at that point in terms of how it vibrates. At the 12th fret you're dividing it in two, string vibrates at half its length, i.e. twice the frequency, i.e. an octave up.

 

Note that none of that has anything whatsoever to do with the position of the fret, which neither you nor the string are touching. If the fret is off slightly, or even hugely, the half-length harmonic is still exactly an octave up, has to be.

 

Note also that if you touch the string say a quarter tone flat of the 12th fret, it either won't vibrate much at all, or it'll do the half-length thing. You're in no danger of getting note that's an out of tune octave up.

 

By all means intonate your guitar, because IRL you are actually going to use the frets (unless you play really weirdly), so the bridge (the part you can adjust) should be positioned so the frets are in as well-tempered positions as possible. But that has zero effect on tuning the open strings correctly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

 

Note that none of that has anything whatsoever to do with the position of the fret, which neither you nor the string are touching. If the fret is off slightly, or even hugely, the half-length harmonic is still exactly an octave up, has to be.

 

...

 

Yes but my point is that you are no longer fretting the harmonic at the halfway point when the string is not intonated. You are fretting it slightly off the halfway point and perhaps enough to still get a harmonic but perhaps not one that is an exact octave. But again, I defer to the experts on this as I am just not sure of the mechanics on this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5/7 Harmonics method – Does not work!

 

This method seems to have a strange attraction for many guitarists. Not least because it’s such a convenient method, which leaves the fretting hand free to tune with, many guitarists cling stubbornly to harmonics tuning, despite the recurrent tuning difficulties it causes.

The simple fact is that the method cannot possibly work, as all harmonics are pure intervals, and the frets are placed to give equal tempered intervals. With the exception of the octave and double octave harmonics (octaves are pure in both the pure and the tempered scales) harmonics should not be used for fine-tuning.

The most common harmonics method is the “5/7†where the high E is tuned to a reference, and the 5th fret harmonic on the low E, to the open high E.

 

The 7th fret harmonic on the A is tuned to the 5th fret harmonic on the low E.

The 7th fret harmonic on the D is tuned to the 5th fret harmonic on the A.

The 7th fret harmonic on the G is tuned to the 5th fret harmonic on the D.

The 5th fret harmonic on the B is tuned to the 7th fret harmonic on the high E.

 

Many users of this method also delude themselves that the 4th fret harmonic on the G string should sound the same frequency as the 5th fret harmonic on the B string.

A guitar tuned this way will, quite simply, not play in tune. The reason is simple – the 7th fret harmonic on the A string sounds the note E, the fifth . But this is a pure fifth interval (to be pedantic, an octave and a fifth). The tempered fifth is lowered two cents from pure. The resulting open A note will therefore be two cents flatter than the tempered A we want. The interval between the low E and the A strings should be a tempered fourth, which is raised two cents from pure. Since the A string has been tuned two cents flat the E – A interval will be flat by the same amount.

Two cents isn’t much but when you tune the D to the A the same way, the D ends up four cents flat. When you get to the G you will be six cents flat. Tuning the 5th fret harmonic on the B string to the (pure fifth) 7th fret harmonic on the high E leaves the open B sharp by two cents. The resulting open G to open B major third interval will be eight cents sharp.

Trying to tune the B string to the G by harmonics will really get you into trouble. The 4th fret harmonic on the G string sounds the major third of G – a B note. But again, this is a pure interval. The tempered third is raised fully 14 cents from pure. Tuning the 5th fret harmonic on the B string to the pure third on the G will leave the B 14 cents flat. Try it and then compare the 4th fret B on the G string to the open B – you’ll see what I mean. It should be obvious by now that harmonics – other than octaves – are not to be trusted! They are useful for the initial coarse tuning, however, as the fretting hand is free to tune while both strings are sounding. Just don’t try to use them to fine tune.

 

That is from here (plenty of good info)

 


Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

5/7 Harmonics method – Does not work!
 
This method seems to have a strange attraction for many guitarists. Not least because it’s such a convenient method, which leaves the fretting hand free to tune with, many guitarists cling stubbornly to harmonics tuning, despite the recurrent tuning difficulties it causes.
The simple fact is that the method cannot possibly work, as all harmonics are pure intervals, and the frets are placed to give equal tempered intervals. With the exception of the octave and double octave harmonics (octaves are pure in both the pure and the tempered scales) harmonics should not be used for fine-tuning.
The most common harmonics method is the “5/7†where the high E is tuned to a reference, and the 5th fret harmonic on the low E, to the open high E.
 
The 7th fret harmonic on the A is tuned to the 5th fret harmonic on the low E.
The 7th fret harmonic on the D is tuned to the 5th fret harmonic on the A.
The 7th fret harmonic on the G is tuned to the 5th fret harmonic on the D.
The 5th fret harmonic on the B is tuned to the 7th fret harmonic on the high E.
 
Many users of this method also delude themselves that the 4th fret harmonic on the G string should sound the same frequency as the 5th fret harmonic on the B string.
A guitar tuned this way will, quite simply, not play in tune. The reason is simple – the 7th fret harmonic on the A string sounds the note E, the fifth . But this is a pure fifth interval (to be pedantic, an octave and a fifth). The tempered fifth is lowered two cents from pure. The resulting open A note will therefore be two cents flatter than the tempered A we want. The interval between the low E and the A strings should be a tempered fourth, which is raised two cents from pure. Since the A string has been tuned two cents flat the E – A interval will be flat by the same amount.
Two cents isn’t much but when you tune the D to the A the same way, the D ends up four cents flat. When you get to the G you will be six cents flat. Tuning the 5th fret harmonic on the B string to the (pure fifth) 7th fret harmonic on the high E leaves the open B sharp by two cents. The resulting open G to open B major third interval will be eight cents sharp.
Trying to tune the B string to the G by harmonics will really get you into trouble. The 4th fret harmonic on the G string sounds the major third of G – a B note. But again, this is a pure interval. The tempered third is raised fully 14 cents from pure. Tuning the 5th fret harmonic on the B string to the pure third on the G will leave the B 14 cents flat. Try it and then compare the 4th fret B on the G string to the open B – you’ll see what I mean. It should be obvious by now that harmonics – other than octaves – are not to be trusted! They are useful for the initial coarse tuning, however, as the fretting hand is free to tune while both strings are sounding. Just don’t try to use them to fine tune.
 
That is from here (plenty of good info)
 

 

 

Interesting post, kind of renders the whole intonation required for proper harmonic tuning debate moot! Btw, I have been lusting after one of those TrueTemper guitars or necks for a while now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good tuners are "jumpy" because the string pitch changes rapidly when you pluck it.  It starts out sharp and goes flat as the note dies out. 

I saw a video where a guy says that you don't play your guitar picking really light so you should pick it as hard as you play so it is in tune when you play and he said to continuously pick wile tuning and I have been doing this for over a year now and fell like it is a better way... 

I checked my tuning with my Black Snark tuner  (the extra tight tuning one) and the Helix tuner was as close as I could get it (with the small bar moving around) and it was perfect on the snark

 

 

here is the short version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_970555227&feature=iv&src_vid=8tfxy_zs0Mo&v=38XqgSL72UE

 

long version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tfxy_zs0Mo&index=3&list=PLigz2q1FaNcTut_ASXixXPGUL2D8fyE0P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I saw a video where a guy says that you don't play your guitar picking really light so you should pick it as hard as you play so it is in tune when you play and he said to continuously pick wile tuning and I have been doing this for over a year now and fell like it is a better way... 

I checked my tuning with my Black Snark tuner  (the extra tight tuning one) and the Helix tuner was as close as I could get it (with the small bar moving around) and it was perfect on the snark

 

 

here is the short version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_970555227&feature=iv&src_vid=8tfxy_zs0Mo&v=38XqgSL72UE

 

long version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tfxy_zs0Mo&index=3&list=PLigz2q1FaNcTut_ASXixXPGUL2D8fyE0P

 

I agree for the most part with the fellow in this video, tune by hitting the string as hard as you will be playing on most songs, granted there will be variations between a soft ballad and digging in when ripping some riffs so you may have to pick an average pluck.   I also use the same logic when setting my intonation. I have seen some instructions that tell you to lightly fret the string at the 12th fret when setting intonation. This makes no sense to me, you should fret the string at the 12th fret with the same pressure you will be using when you play.  

 

I suppose you could argue that if you are playing a lot of long legato phrases with lots of sustain and soft picking then it is more important to have the duration of the sound and decay of the string immediately following when it is picked be in tune than the initial pluck but for most guitar work I think his advice is sound.

 

Also, as he recommends I ALWAYS stretch the string when tuning, otherwise it can stick on the nut or saddle and then release as soon as pressure or a bend is applied to the string while playing, immediately causing it to go out of tune.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes but my point is that you are no longer fretting the harmonic at the halfway point when the string is not intonated. You are fretting it slightly off the halfway point and perhaps enough to still get a harmonic but perhaps not one that is an exact octave. But again, I defer to the experts on this as I am just not sure of the mechanics on this.

I don't say this often, about anything, but I AM sure. Try it yourself around the 11th fret instead of the 12th, see if you can get a harmonic to ring out from that very inexact (not actually an) octave location. The string just won't do that, or rather, has very little energy when you force a non-multiple spot on it not to vibrate.

 

Google "guitar string harmonics picture" for some examples that might be clear on a gut level, like this one: http://www.justinguitar.com/images/TE_images/Harmonics.gif

 

See how the string is actually not moving at those even divisions of the full string length? That's what makes a harmonic ring. Touching the string at for instance the 12th fret, means it can't vibrate at its full length, like fig 1 (you stopped that halfway point from moving), but it will vibrate on octave higher, like fig 2, because that exact halfway point is actually not moving when it does that, like the picture shows.

 

So in a tuning context, you don't have to worry that a 12th fret harmonic might not be an exact octave if the guitar isn't intonated correctly. It simply has to be.

 

Note that that applies only to even octaves, like 12th, 15th, and 24th fret harmonics. Fifths and other non-octave harmonics get involved with tempered tuning, which is inherently an inexact compromise. That's the reason the 5/7 harmonics tuning method is flat-out wrong. But for octaves, you're good, says Physics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't say this often, about anything, but I AM sure. Try it yourself around the 11th fret instead of the 12th, see if you can get a harmonic to ring out from that very inexact (not actually an) octave location. The string just won't do that, or rather, has very little energy when you force a non-multiple spot on it not to vibrate.

 

Google "guitar string harmonics picture" for some examples that might be clear on a gut level, like this one: http://www.justinguitar.com/images/TE_images/Harmonics.gif

 

See how the string is actually not moving at those even divisions of the full string length? That's what makes a harmonic ring. Touching the string at for instance the 12th fret, means it can't vibrate at its full length, like fig 1 (you stopped that halfway point from moving), but it will vibrate on octave higher, like fig 2, because that exact halfway point is actually not moving when it does that, like the picture shows.

 

So in a tuning context, you don't have to worry that a 12th fret harmonic might not be an exact octave if the guitar isn't intonated correctly. It simply has to be.

 

Note that that applies only to even octaves, like 12th, 15th, and 24th fret harmonics. Fifths and other non-octave harmonics get involved with tempered tuning, which is inherently an inexact compromise. That's the reason the 5/7 harmonics tuning method is flat-out wrong. But for octaves, you're good, says Physics.

 

It seems like you are still saying that the 12th fret location for fretting the harmonic gives you an exact octave regardless of the length of the string between the nut and fret (in or out of intonation) and that still seems intuitively wrong to me. I am going to duck out of the conversation until some other folks weigh in because I am either missing your point or just don't agree with it. You may be absolutely correct though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems like you are still saying that the 12th fret location for fretting the harmonic gives you an exact octave regardless of the length of the string between the nut and fret (in or out of intonation) and that still seems intuitively wrong to me. I am going to duck out of the conversation until some other folks weigh in because I am either missing your point or just don't agree with it. You may be absolutely correct though.

I think he's saying it will do that naturally if it's reasonably close. The string just cannot vibrate in two halves creating the octave from nearby positions, so if you hit a nearby position and get that octave tone, it's going to be an octave because the string will naturally do that, finding it's own natural vibration point if you are just close to it. If it had to be micrometer precise, no one would ever be able to hit an octave harmonic. Harmonics only exist at certain points, of course, and the 12 fret, 1/2 wavelength, is the strongest of all of them. Get close, and the string will do the rest. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to set your intonation reasonably accurately. The octave of the string is precise. When intonating, you change the length of the string to fine tune the location of the harmonic octave node to match your fret location. Conversely, the 12th fret harmonic, by definition, is twice the frequency of the open string, independent of fret positions, and doing a harmonic there will guarantee a stable note that is double the frequency of your open string.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think this thread is really the place to be talking about how to intonate your guitar, but because we have been, I'm just going to say that I think (partly because the tech who helped train me also thought) that intonating with the 12th-fret harmonic is counterproductive. You don't, generally, play the harmonics for any length of time in a song. What you play is a fretted note. It is far more important that the open string and the fretted octave (12th fret) are the same pitch than that the fretted octave and the harmonic are the same pitch. In a perfect world, they would all be the same, but in the real world, the 12th-fret harmonic is all but irrelevant to intonation. I always intonate by checking the open string against the fretted octave.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...