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shanecgriffo

'amp in the room' setting

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i think the way around this physics problem of needing a microphone, is just to get someone with great ears to recreate his idea of how an amp sounds sitting in front of him/her self. It would be quite subjective i know but i am willing to try something by someone (say the chap who made the litigator amp ;) ) that is his idea of a raw amp minus mic modelling. just a nice versatile immediate sounding amp model- Call it " the bedroom amp" for just sitting at home noodling around.. we all do it after all! ;)

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in bold..those are precisely 100% of Helix, Fractal, and Kemper customers... so again.. given we KNOW that audience tolerance for tone is at least 10 times wider than our own.. why are we spending thousands on gear to NOT sound like amps?.. just a question :)

 

 

and i simply do not understand the angst at all.. we currently send a feed to foh that is cab+mic, which then gets doctored by the sound engineer, why is is such an issue that the feed be simply a more authentic sounding cab model / no mic only?... the sound engineer will still EQ to fit the mix...yes the person who will tell the difference is the guy that bought the gear in the first place.. isnt that a win? :)

 

i can only speak for myself in this regard, but I'm absolutely NOT spending thousands on gear to sound like an amp in the room.  After 50+ years of playing...mostly through amps in the room...the last thing in the world I want is an amp in the room that comes with all the limitations I've had to deal with all those 50+ years.  And a major part of why I don't want to endure those limitations is because of your second point of being dependent and at the mercy of a sound engineer to achieve a sound I should be able to achieve without his help.

 

For the first time in my career I've finally gotten the opportunity to confidently know that the sound I'm producing on stage will be accurately portrayed to the audience.  I honestly can't understand this love-fest for the amp in the room sound.  What I remember from those days is my sound changing every time I set it up.  Having to adjust for stage setups, problems with getting a good stage mix between me and the rest of the band, and general inconsistency performance to performance.  What I spend my money on is consistency and manageability.  But I have to admit I may be the odd duck here because I'm not inspired by the sound of my guitar through a trouser flapping, air moving amp.  I'm inspired by being part of a well-mixed stage band.

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i can only speak for myself in this regard, but I'm absolutely NOT spending thousands on gear to sound like an amp in the room.  After 50+ years of playing...mostly through amps in the room...the last thing in the world I want is an amp in the room that comes with all the limitations I've had to deal with all those 50+ years.  And a major part of why I don't want to endure those limitations is because of your second point of being dependent and at the mercy of a sound engineer to achieve a sound I should be able to achieve without his help.

 

For the first time in my career I've finally gotten the opportunity to confidently know that the sound I'm producing on stage will be accurately portrayed to the audience.  I honestly can't understand this love-fest for the amp in the room sound.  What I remember from those days is my sound changing every time I set it up.  Having to adjust for stage setups, problems with getting a good stage mix between me and the rest of the band, and general inconsistency performance to performance.  What I spend my money on is consistency and manageability.  But I have to admit I may be the odd duck here because I'm not inspired by the sound of my guitar through a trouser flapping, air moving amp.  I'm inspired by being part of a well-mixed stage band.

 

Preach it brother !!!!  Ayyyyyyyyyyymen !!!!!

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I'm amused that so many people who don't want an "amp in the room" ability are posting here and questioning why those of who do want this want this!

 

I don't think anybody is questioning the usefulness of modelling a mic'd cab when it comes to getting consistency and playing live with FOH considerations etc etc.

 

But there are PLENTY of us who don't always play live, or who like to practice, or just jam at home who would love to be able to have a digital modelling setup that can provide us with lots of amps and versatility and have it sound like an amp in a room. Why is that so hard a concept to grasp for some?

 

Whether it can be done or not is entirely separate - and some people have put great arguments forward as to why it can't. That's great and I for one have learned a lot from those people on this thread.

 

But bashing people for hoping they can have a digital way of having access to multiple amps that sound like a real un-mic'd amp in their room is all a bit narrow minded....and tedious.

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I love this site, it is actually the first one I posted when I started a thread for free IRs.

http://line6.com/support/topic/17076-links-for-free-impulse-responses-ir-here/?p=125873

 

The problem is right now the Helix and probably most other modelers don't accept IRs large enough to be properly used for reverb although this site does have a few that are short enough. I definitely think the next generation is going to allow much larger file sizes for IRs. This would allow not only reverb IRs but more detailed and complex cab IRs as well. Maybe there would be a way to do it now with a firmware revision but it does not seem to be a high priority.

Oops, sorry I must have missed your original post about the University of York Open AIR project. A great find.

I have to agree about the size of IR samples that can be loaded into Helix. I was thinking beyond the ability to have better defined cabinet models and more along the lines of how this technology could be used within the delay and reverb blocks in Helix. Many users have posted on IdeaScale the need to have delays and reverb of the quality and detail provided by Eventide and Strymon etc. If it could be done with IRS it would negate the task of modelling a rival product and give the user the option of creating unique FX. Convolution IRs are everywhere now, so why not shoe horn it into the Helix. Damn, they even have it in Ableton Live now.

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IRs, new ways of modeling, flat response microphones...

 

...with all due respect, all of it misses the entire point.

 

A 12" guitar speaker moves air in a completely different manner than any reasonably flat full range speaker system does.

 

Your ears respond to air moving.

 

End of story.

 

You want an amp in the room? Get an amp and get a room.

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1. the sound engineer will adjust the mix, not you.

2. you dont care about how any amp actually sounds..got it.

 

There is nothing about having a cab/ no mic model that in any way interferes with how you wish to run your rig.. why so much effort to prevent me from doing the same?..

 

 

For the first time in my career I've finally gotten the opportunity to confidently know that the sound I'm producing on stage will be accurately portrayed to the audience.  I honestly can't understand this love-fest for the amp in the room sound.  

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"guitar amp modelling will never come remotely close to the feel and sound of a tube amp" - said pretty much everyone in the early 2000's .. just to remind those that are saying certain things are impossible when it comes to amp modelling. 😉

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i can only speak for myself in this regard, but I'm absolutely NOT spending thousands on gear to sound like an amp in the room. After 50+ years of playing...mostly through amps in the room...the last thing in the world I want is an amp in the room that comes with all the limitations I've had to deal with all those 50+ years. And a major part of why I don't want to endure those limitations is because of your second point of being dependent and at the mercy of a sound engineer to achieve a sound I should be able to achieve without his help.

 

For the first time in my career I've finally gotten the opportunity to confidently know that the sound I'm producing on stage will be accurately portrayed to the audience. I honestly can't understand this love-fest for the amp in the room sound. What I remember from those days is my sound changing every time I set it up. Having to adjust for stage setups, problems with getting a good stage mix between me and the rest of the band, and general inconsistency performance to performance. What I spend my money on is consistency and manageability. But I have to admit I may be the odd duck here because I'm not inspired by the sound of my guitar through a trouser flapping, air moving amp. I'm inspired by being part of a well-mixed stage band.

I'm right there with you. Also, ever since the first time I played through a real tube amp, I was disappointed that I couldn't get the sounds I heard in my favorite recordings.

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Point source vs. environment. And a transducer is a transducer is a sensor is a rose is your ears mounted on the side of your head. You're asking for a unicorn. The sound of an "amp in a room" is requisite on having a) an amp and b ) a room. And no matter how you measure it, what you're always going to end up with is the sound of _that_ amp in _that_ room because you can't stop that butterfly from flapping it's wings halfway around the world.

 

This debate meets the original definition of "moot point" i.e. one which is subject to endless debate without every reaching resolution.

 

Amen...thank you. The final arbiter of tone is the box you're plaything through. Until technology allows us to beam our tonal awesomeness directly into our skulls, "amp in the room vs. mic-ed cab" will remain in contention for "Most Utterly Useless Discussion of Our Time". Rounding out the top three contenders for the crown we have "Tastes great/less filling" and "Who shot first, Han or Greedo?" ;)

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1. the sound engineer will adjust the mix, not you.

2. you dont care about how any amp actually sounds..got it.

 

There is nothing about having a cab/ no mic model that in any way interferes with how you wish to run your rig.. why so much effort to prevent me from doing the same?..

 

Well apparently you missed the opening part of my statement which said "I can only speak for myself in this regard" which would indicate I'm only speaking for myself, not for you.  Nor am I suggesting my way is the only way to do things.  In fact I believe it indicates it's the only way I want to do it.  You can pursue whatever trips your trigger.  All I was doing was correcting your statement regarding spending thousands of dollars to get an amp that sounds like a live amp in the room, as that's not what I want.

 

As far as the sound engineer adjusting my mix...in practice that's certainly not true.  I tell my sound engineer what works best for me on my channel and that's what they do.  And I do care profoundly about how any amp sounds.  That's why I carefully select which amp or amps I'll use in my patches the same as I'll carefully select the cabs, the mics, and the mic placements.  That way the sound engineer doesn't need to adjust or correct my tone.

 

You see, the concept is simple for me.  It's the same as a computer "garbage in, garbage out".  If the stage mix of the band is balanced, articulated and clean on stage, there's not a lot the sound man needs to do to get it projected correctly into the room other than make corrections for the acoustics of the room.  And that's not something you would typically do on a channel by channel basis as that affects all of the channels equally.

 

But again...that's just how I prefer to do it.  Your mileage may vary.....

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Amen...thank you. The final arbiter of tone is the box you're plaything through. Until technology allows us to beam our tonal awesomeness directly into our skulls, "amp in the room vs. mic-ed cab" will remain in contention for "Most Utterly Useless Discussion of Our Time". Rounding out the top three contenders for the crown we have "Tastes great/less filling" and "Who shot first, Han or Greedo?" ;)

 

Well it's definitely less filling but doesn't taste great compared to the many custom brews we have here in my area.

And with Han or Greedo there is no debate. Han shot first. Jeese!

Glad I could finally put those two discussuions to rest.

Now if I could only perfect the amp in a room with a beer on it while Star Wars is playing on a screen, sound, I'd be happy.

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IRs, new ways of modeling, flat response microphones...

 

...with all due respect, all of it misses the entire point.

 

A 12" guitar speaker moves air in a completely different manner than any reasonably flat full range speaker system does.

 

Your ears respond to air moving.

 

End of story.

 

You want an amp in the room? Get an amp and get a room.

Yup. Pretty much.

That and the fact that so far, no microphone, no matter how flat, can capture and convey sound the way our ears do.

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Doesn't Line 6 have an actual example of each amp like they used to? And then model that amp to make it sound as close to that amp in that room?

That's what the old "Pilots" manual used to say with my old Vetta amp.

Matter of fact each model was accompanied by a pic of the actual amp modeled and a synopsis of how they came into possession of said amp.

So with all of this talk that NOBODY can decide how the amp should sound in the room...does that mean that NOBODY at Line 6 listens to these models in a room and compares them to the real amp side by side in that room?

 

Quite frankly...I am getting a great tone...and I do it in a room. Lol

And the sound I seek, and get, is the sound of an amp in the room with some effects on it.

Just like I did with real amps and effects.

 

I think that Line6 should reveal and then market the EXACT frfr system they use to compare the Helix to the real amps they model.

That way we could all simply purchase that exact setup and hear the same thing that the line6 people do.

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Doesn't Line 6 have an actual example of each amp like they used to? And then model that amp to make it sound as close to that amp in that room?

That's what the old "Pilots" manual used to say with my old Vetta amp.

Matter of fact each model was accompanied by a pic of the actual amp modeled and a synopsis of how they came into possession of said amp.

So with all of this talk that NOBODY can decide how the amp should sound in the room...does that mean that NOBODY at Line 6 listens to these models in a room and compares them to the real amp side by side in that room?

 

Quite frankly...I am getting a great tone...and I do it in a room. Lol

And the sound I seek, and get, is the sound of an amp in the room with some effects on it.

Just like I did with real amps and effects.

 

I think that Line6 should reveal and then market the EXACT frfr system they use to compare the Helix to the real amps they model.

That way we could all simply purchase that exact setup and hear the same thing that the line6 people do.

 

I'm pretty sure the comparison is in a studio control booth with a miced amp in the studio and the Helix going direct. I'm not sure how much "in the same room as the amp" comparisons there are.

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I'm pretty sure the comparison is in a studio control booth with a miced amp in the studio and the Helic going direct. I'm not sure how much "in the same room as the amp" comparisons there are.

So you're saying that when they model an amp...they are modeling a miced amp?

So how do they determine which microphone it is that they use for the modeling? And the characteristics of the preamp of the studio board channel they are using for the miced amp?

 

You see what I'm saying? There are just as many...if not MORE variables in the modeling aspect of it than the end user aspect.

 

And as I said...in the past Line 6 literature pushed very strongly that they were modeling the amps on actual real amplifiers that they had in their possession.

So how do they determine what an amp sounds like? And wouldn't the most logical thing be to simply set up the real amp in a "dead" room, put all the knobs at the halfway mark and then "model" it (with whatever proprietary way they do that)?

 

That is how they suggested in the old manuals that they did it. Do they not do that now? Or is it all just digital readouts from the speaker output?

 

As I said...my Helix gets the same sound I have always gotten with my real amps (in a room...) with effects on them. Just like I did with my old head, rack of effects, and guitar cab. Same sound. Not sure why people can't seem to get that sound for themselves or why so many on here keep making excuses as to why the Helix "can't" get that sound...when I have found it does indeed. 

 

I even posted "live" onstage footage of me in another thread. The sound you hear is straight out of the P.A.  and it's the same exact sound I get out of my Bose speaker setup to monitor myself...and the same sound I hear when I plug it direct into my studio to record. Pretty close soundwise in all those environments. 

 

Anyway...it seems logical that even IF Line 6 listens to it in a studio control room...surely they sit down with it (in a room) and plug it into a frfr or other speaker combo to get some idea of what their product is going to sound like for the consumer. And when they do that...I would like to know the EXACT frfr setup they have. 

If they revealed the main one that they use (I'm sure that they probably have a few)...then all Helix owners could purchase the same one and THEN we would all have a starting point that is a valid one. 

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So you're saying that when they model an amp...they are modeling a miced amp?

So how do they determine which microphone it is that they use for the modeling? And the characteristics of the preamp of the studio board channel they are using for the miced amp?...

 

 

You decide that by which IR you choose or which mic model you choose for your cabinet in the cab block.

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Oops, sorry I must have missed your original post about the University of York Open AIR project. A great find.

I have to agree about the size of IR samples that can be loaded into Helix. I was thinking beyond the ability to have better defined cabinet models and more along the lines of how this technology could be used within the delay and reverb blocks in Helix. Many users have posted on IdeaScale the need to have delays and reverb of the quality and detail provided by Eventide and Strymon etc. If it could be done with IRS it would negate the task of modelling a rival product and give the user the option of creating unique FX. Convolution IRs are everywhere now, so why not shoe horn it into the Helix. Damn, they even have it in Ableton Live now.

 

No worries, the more places that Open AIR link shows up the better. That is a great site worthy of publicizing. I agree, would be fantastic to see this capability in the Helix, would love to try some of those IRs captured in such unique spaces on the Helix in place of a reverb block not to speak of the potential for more detailed cabs. I am happy with the Helix and its ability to load cabs now but it is not hard to see that industry-wide IR development is far from done.

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So you're saying that when they model an amp...they are modeling a miced amp?

So how do they determine which microphone it is that they use for the modeling? And the characteristics of the preamp of the studio board channel they are using for the miced amp?

 

You see what I'm saying? There are just as many...if not MORE variables in the modeling aspect of it than the end user aspect.

 

I'm not saying anymore than I said. Don't read into anything. I guess I should have been more clear. I'm referring to one comparison that involved actual people listening to an amp in the studio and the Helix direct. That's the only comparison I've heard spoken about here. I don't know what the other comparisons are or which other ones have been used. Now, are you talking about just the amp modeling? Or the modeling with a cab? If it's with a cab, there are various mics available in the cab sims so the mic they use for the modeling is the mic that is available for the cab sim. The amp alone modeling is a bit different. But yes, with a cab they are modeling a miced amp, or more accurately, they are modeling a miced speaker cabinet. Check out how the Kemper creates an IR for an amp on their website and you'll get an idea of what the modeling process can involve. I can't speak to any of the specifics. Does the mic go into a mixing board or directly into the magic amp sim box that converts what the mic does into a sim. I don't know.  But the comparisons that have been spoken of involved peoples ears in a control booth and a completely modeled amp going direct compared to an amp in the studio using the same mic, cab, distance, etc. And since they are listening to it through the same mixing board in the control room through the same speakers, the direct Helix signal and the miced amp signal should be going through the same preamp therefore the preamp's characteristics will be the same for both. That is the only comparison that I know how it has occurred. I'm assuming there are others I don't know about.

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The amp alone modeling is a bit different. But yes, with a cab they are modeling a miced amp, or more accurately, they are modeling a miced speaker cabinet. 

In the old owners manuals they would show you the actual amp head and the cabinet or the actual combo amp. And they would detail to you what speakers were in it and what tubes were in the amps (especially the cool old vintage amps they had).

 

In other words they were faithfully recreating the amp as it was to the best of their ability with the technology they had. I'm just assuming that they are still doing that. But like you...I have no real way to know that because they don't tell you very much anymore about the amp models. 

Back in the Vetta days, they told you MORE than you needed to know. lol  You got the info on who owns the amp and where they got it and how many years they had it, etc. heh-heh

 

Anyway, bottom line is...I'm able to get this baby to sound even better than my Bogner Ecstasy head with my TC Electronic G Force setup. And I'm talking "in the room".  And no, I'm not saying that there are any compromises and that I'm not hearing it sounding like a "real amp". 

I hear it as it is "in the room". And that's the sound I have always gotten in the P.A. as well. 

 

When you start with a good sound out of your amp (or Helix), and you have a good soundman with a good P.A., there is no reason to ever not sound just the same in the mains as you do in front of an amp. 

 

Now for those folks who go for the "scooped" sound...I can't help you. The lead will always sound like a mosquito. lol   

(sorry, I had to bust some balls just for a second there)

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In the old owners manuals they would show you the actual amp head and the cabinet or the actual combo amp. And they would detail to you what speakers were in it and what tubes were in the amps (especially the cool old vintage amps they had).

 

In other words they were faithfully recreating the amp as it was to the best of their ability with the technology they had. I'm just assuming that they are still doing that. But like you...I have no real way to know that because they don't tell you very much anymore about the amp models. 

Back in the Vetta days, they told you MORE than you needed to know. lol  You got the info on who owns the amp and where they got it and how many years they had it, etc. heh-heh

 

Anyway, bottom line is...I'm able to get this baby to sound even better than my Bogner Ecstasy head with my TC Electronic G Force setup. And I'm talking "in the room".  And no, I'm not saying that there are any compromises and that I'm not hearing it sounding like a "real amp". 

I hear it as it is "in the room". And that's the sound I have always gotten in the P.A. as well. 

 

When you start with a good sound out of your amp (or Helix), and you have a good soundman with a good P.A., there is no reason to ever not sound just the same in the mains as you do in front of an amp. 

 

Now for those folks who go for the "scooped" sound...I can't help you. The lead will always sound like a mosquito. lol   

(sorry, I had to bust some balls just for a second there)

 

Yeah, I miss those descriptions. I still have my Vetta. Had to change the battery. So you're aware of the basic modelling concepts. I've been a Line 6 boy for awhile. The Helix is, for me, what I've been looking for. It has feel where I always felt the other modelers sounded good but sounded "flat" for lack of a better word.

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May have been said.. but moving the mic back gives a nice full sound. then add a little reverb to taste.. ba da boom ba da bing... 
amp in a room .

to add to that.. I've been trying a mixture of IR's and cabs.. before split, after split.. after amp...every way sounds different. 
It's almost like EQ'ing going through the options. I've been pulling up the working file and dialing in things to that. 
It's like pre-mastering.. I love it

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But there are PLENTY of us who don't always play live, or who like to practice, or just jam at home who would love to be able to have a digital modelling setup that can provide us with lots of amps and versatility and have it sound like an amp in a room. Why is that so hard a concept to grasp for some?

 

It's NOT a hard concept to grasp. There are some things you can do with the Helix that satisfies some folks taste, but that's NOT what it was designed for.   It was designed to reproduce the sound of amps as they would sound when recorded with an array of speakers and microphone combinations.

 

The Line6 Firehawk amps are probably more appropriate because they are designed to sound like "amps in a room" cause... well... it's an amp....  and can be used... in a room..  (trying to shed humor here).

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But there are PLENTY of us who don't always play live, or who like to practice, or just jam at home who would love to be able to have a digital modelling setup that can provide us with lots of amps and versatility and have it sound like an amp in a room. Why is that so hard a concept to grasp for some?

 

Whether it can be done or not is entirely separate - and some people have put great arguments forward as to why it can't. That's great and I for one have learned a lot from those people on this thread.

 

But bashing people for hoping they can have a digital way of having access to multiple amps that sound like a real un-mic'd amp in their room is all a bit narrow minded....and tedious.

 

The truth is there are plenty of people that achieve the amp in the room feel using the Helix by using full range cabinets such as mission engineering, friedman or atomic and others.  The amp in the room isn't a function of the Helix, it's a function of the speaker.

 

What started this whole discussion was the concept that a modeler like the Helix should be able to model an amp in the room sound.  The Helix models the amp, and the term "amp in the room" is a misnomer.  It would be better stated to say "the cabinet in the room" sound.

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I will just leave a lil comment here that might get me some more negative reputations because some guys here can't take critique on their toys.

 

I wanted that "amp in the room" sound as well. And what can i say the Helix is by definition not capable of delivering that. If not run through an actual amp.

But i found a good solution for that.

I just use the Kemper which delivers the character of an amp in the room because it profiles amps in a room. If you run this through monitor of frfr monitors

you still don't get quite the "amp in the room" sound because the monitors have like the name says a flat response. This flat response will never get you an amp 

like feel.

A friend of mine has a "Marshall Woburn" speaker (NO AMP CAB). This has no flat response but a rather lollipop hi-fi/boxy kind of tone. Which is not usable for dialing in

a tone or anything. But if you run the Kemper through such a boxy sounding speaker the result was pretty close to what I define as "amp in the room" sound.

 

I was pretty amazed. Maybe this might even work with the Helix as well.

Just my 2 cents ^^

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You guys should grab that Studio Cat Mesa OS IR pack and use one of the IRs thats of a mic on top of the cab. Sounds pretty close to what you'd expect it to sound like if you're standing out of the beam of a guitar cab. If it's a matter of feel and projection, why not just run it through a practice amp or something when you're jamming at home? \

But please, for your audience's sake, keep a nice DI tone to use live so we get a GOOD guitar sound when we come see your band.

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Sry for the revival but maybe it helps someone. I think that the biggest problem is that a lot of people have (untreated/uncalibrated :) ) rooms/studio monitors and play amp sims through them and say they miss the amp in the room feel. Ofc the 6 7inch speaker on those is not gonna be able to give you the impact that a guitar cab would. 

What i did: got a pa speaker with a 12 inch woofer but the most important part, even if my speaker measures flat outside in my room it gets an ugly 13-15db db boost in the 80-200 range that just destroys any guitar tone(plus other problems). So i got a measurement microphone :) and tried to get a flat response out of the speaker around my listening position (you can't fix nulls and other problems without room treatment but still). It did all the difference in the world. (i can recommend dirac,  mathaudio roomeq, rew(free),for my monitors i use sonarworks) you can also get Redwire impulses, that for some cabs, have far field measurements with a TC30 ref mic, Mix those in. They come with 0inch measurements + 2m/5ft ones( more useful for headphones,in my opinion). All this helped me get over my amp in the room need. :)

 

For headphones i recommend sonarworks headphone or toneboosters morphit for headphone calibration(if it has your headphone profile) + some plugin for binaural sound like waves nx.

 

This is ofc for a practice at home situation :).

 

I do not recommend to do what i did, i posted this just to maybe give some ideas but i recommend trying a software like dirac, sonarworks, rew etc to see what your speakers are putting out there and for some quick fixes.

One last note for a measurement mic you can get the sonarworks one, is cheap and it comes with a calibration file or an  UMIK-1.

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