M20D - Emailing my Band File to a GOOD Soundguy: Can anybody help?

[StuMur]

Hi Guys,

 

I'm fully sick as a sound guy, and I mean that in a BAD way. I'm totally useless - never have I had the knack of pulling great sound. I'm a very experienced live gig muso, but I really can't pull live sound to save myself. As much as I have tried, I can't seem to make our 3-piece band sound clean/good quality at our live pub gigs with my beloved M20D - maybe because I'm busy playing?

 

Might any kind souls out there be interested in getting my trio band's M20D soundcheck file emailed to them, and having a crack at engineering it properly for me on their M20D, then email it back to me so I can upload the settings etc back into my M20D for a presumably WAY more pro-quality sound? Is this possible with the M20D? I'd be happy to pay for your effort, particularly if you're a professional live engineer, or just a monster with the M20D?

 

Hoping someone might get in touch to help out. I love this thing, but I'm sinking rather than swimming, and the pub bosses aren't happy..!

 

Cheers,

Stu.

[StuMur]

Hmm. No replies - that might not be a good sign..  :blink:

[phil_m]

You might want to post this over on the StageScape/StageSource section: http://line6.com/support/forum/62-stagescape-mixer-stagesource-speakers/

[pianoguyy]

Sorry, I do not agree with the situation at all. 

 

 

You cannot run sound while performing. 

Sound men need to be out in the crowd to be able to hear things from the employer's perspective. They need to change things based in real time based on environmental factors (more people in the room, or congregating in a particular area). 

 

Hire a sound man. 

Never do it yourself.  

 

End of story.

[silverhead]

Sorry, I do not agree with the situation at all.

 

 

You cannot run sound while performing.

Sound men need to be out in the crowd to be able to hear things from the employer's perspective. They need to change things based in real time based on environmental factors (more people in the room, or congregating in a particular area).

 

Hire a sound man.

Never do it yourself.

 

End of story.

It's hard for a 3-piece band in a pub to afford a sound man. That's one reason that the M20d is a good choice for mixer. You can have the mixer on stage for control of mutes, scenes, monitors, intermission music, etc. And you can record a sound-check segment while all three of you are playing before starting the gig, then take your iPad with the StageScape app and tweak it from the house during playback of the sound-check recording. Then you're ready to go.

[66d35]

Hire a sound man. 

Never do it yourself.  

 

End of story.

 

Would $10 be OK for you?

 

Pay your own travel costs on top.

 

I have no idea which planet or dimension you inhabit, but it is increasingly difficult for bands to get reasonable rates of return, and for smaller 'regular'  bar type gigs I am baffled - totally - as to how you can possibly believe they can afford to pay fair rates for a sound person out of the meagre earnings they do receive. For major touring acts and large venues - yes. I agree with you, but suggesting that this is possible for all performers in all situations is completely unrealistic.

[quadcabby]

I play in a 5 piece and we've advertised for a sound man with absolutely no success. Equal terms with the musicians but when they do show up, most don't want to either work with, or learn how to use the M20d. That said we use electronic drums and the drummer always gets asked why he uses a practice kit!! £6k practice kit!! I use a variax and the disdainful looks I get from a lot of the purists are unbelievable. So my good lady has learned her way around the M20d and now, when she is able, runs the sound from an iPad. If she's not available the only option is do it from the stage!

 

Where you based Stu?

[StuMur]

Hey Quadcabby. I'm based in Australia. As Silverhead and 66d35 eloquently stated above, yes.. I'm one of those unfortunate lifetime professional pub rock guys who's been gigging in pubs forever as my main source of income. Here on planet Australia, there's not a remote possibility of 'hiring a soundguy to work for us'.. that ended about 25 years ago for we small pub players. So like everyone else, I've been pulling sound from stage as we sing/play/act the goat on analogue boards for 20 of my 30 gigging years.

 

I'm so bloody busy now on stage that I hoped the m20d would free up the mix side of things so I can get back to the audience. But this being my first move to a digi board, I just can't get the mix sounding right on the m20d. I've recorded 3 or 4 live gig songs, and then tried for days in the rehearsal room to pull a premium sound, but I'm really just going to have to concede defeat.

 

I'm just gonna have to go back to my analogue boards, unless someone can step in with a better ear than me, and some grand experience on the m20d, and have a fiddle with my recordings. I'd be ever so grateful, though given the choice, I suspect most of you would probably opt for a stern rectal examination over re-engineering my 3-piece band mix. Still, I live in hope..

 

Thanks all for helping so far. Awesome.

[silverhead]

I'm willing to give it a shot, but technically I'm not exactly sure about the file transfers required.

 

I would PM you about these questions because others may not be interested in the details, but I've decided to continue to communicate publicly here for two reasons. First, others who might want to do a similar thing in future may be interested in what we discover. Second, other knowledgeable M20d users may be able to help us muddle through this.

 

So, my questions and concerns.....

 

First, we need to understand that the the recording occurs post-trim and pre-fader. That means you need to pay attention to your input trim levels on all channels in order to have a proper incoming signal for processing. That's where the Auto-trim feature is helpful. Without a good signal at this stage you will be limited in producing a good output. Nobody can recover a poorly recorded signal. If you did not pay attention to this it is worth retrying everything on your end. You may find that you don't need help - you just need a good signal to begin with.

 

 

If you're satisfied that your input levels are good and you still want help we need to transfer the files. But what files?

 

Playback of a recorded segment requires all channel files. They will be numbered in a separate folder on your recording media. Sending these files individually by email shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't rename them. I should be able to reconstruct the folder on my end on a media card.

 

The piece I'm not at all sure about is the Setup. Playback requires that the same Setup used to record the file is use to playback the recording. That means I will need your Setup file. I think the only way to obtain that is for you to make a full system backup and send me the entire backup file. I'm not sure how big that is - it may require compression on your end and expansion on mine. Then I will need to make my own backup of my current settings before replacing them with yours. Not a problem.

 

So it looks like I need two things to begin:

- a set of channel files with proper input trim levels, and the name of the folder on your media card in which those files are stored.

- a System backup file that contains your Setup, and the name of the Setup to use.

 

What do you think? Still want to try?

[pianoguyy]

I have no idea which planet or dimension you inhabit, but it is increasingly difficult for bands to get reasonable rates of return, and for smaller 'regular'  bar type gigs I am baffled - totally - as to how you can possibly believe they can afford to pay fair rates for a sound person out of the meagre earnings they do receive. For major touring acts and large venues - yes. I agree with you, but suggesting that this is possible for all performers in all situations is completely unrealistic.

 

 

But it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

 

You can't afford to pay someone to run your sound - the result is bad sound.

With bad sound, the result is gigs that don't pay well enough to hire a someone to run sound.

Which begins the cycle all over again. 

 

 

I've never heard a customer walk out of a venue saying "That band is frickin awesome, but the sound man used a mic at a 45 degree angle which created a unpleasant whistle in the 4k region. And it just totally ruined everything." 

 

But I definitely heard them say "man, that band sucks" 

[66d35]

I would take issue with you on two key points.

 

1. The assumption that without a full time sound person "the result is bad sound". No. It is not. In many cases the sound engineering requirements are really very straightforward and well within the capability of a band or solo artist to manage to a very satisfactory level - especially given the technology now available. Of course, this does require a degree of education on the part of whoever is running the sound, but plenty of good resources on that subject are accessible these days, and with sufficient effort and practice the type of gig we are talking about here can be, and frequently are, self-engineered to a perfectly adequate standard.  I would also point out I have heard truly lousy sound from supposed "full time professional" sound engineers - and not infrequently, either. You get a person used to engineering rock bands and give them a classical artist or a bluegrass band and you often see huge problems. So, knowing and understanding genre and instrument specific requirements are just as important as any other aspect, and quite often, the performers are better informed on that topic than a "hired in" sound person. Bottom line: you can get good and bad sound in both situations - and it can be down to any number of causes, but in my opinion (based on 40 years of doing this, and running sound from everyone from "living legend" artists and Grammy winners to open mic nights), it is categorically not the case that self-engineering invariably results in "bad sound".

 

2. It really would not matter in many cases if the band had the combined expertise and gear from a major venue available. The gig they are playing has a budget to work to - and that's that. That figure has been falling steadily too, for years now. Not increasing, so even if they wanted to bring in a personal sound engineer - where is the money coming from?  The fact is that for gigs at the small-medium end of the scale, that money is just not there. It does not exist. No amount of wishful thinking will make it suddenly appear. The entire band might only be getting a couple of hundred or so between them... there is just no way to pay an engineer on top. It cannot be done. If you went to most of these venues and told them you need another couple of hundred "for the sound guy" they'd just laugh - and hire another band instead. This is the reality.

[rimrocked]

I'll give it a listen and try to help you. PM me and send it as an mp3 or send me the complete wave files from your m20d with the individual tracks and your setup backup...

 

Contrary to what some people might say you can play and tweak the sound...I do it 2 three times a month.

 

The Line 6 videos on the mixer features are a great start. Learning how each of the instruments interact with each other is very important. I.E. Using high and low pass filters to clear up frequency room will improve the 'live, airy sound' we look for. Using and understanding the auto trim function will also help.

 

I have sat down with each band member and spent about an hour with each adjusting their sound out of the mains and monitors. Using the 6 band eq option has helped get just the right sound for them.

 

I also use the remote app on my iPad to monitor the entire band from the audience. YES I BOUGHT AN IPAD AND WIRELESS DONGLE JUST TO DO THIS! Once you try this out, you will never go back to the old 'adjust, run out to the audience, run back, adjust etc.'

 

I use both the 20 sec recording as well as recording and playback of a longer test to help adjust the sound balance. I have the band go out into the audience and listen critically to the overall balance and quality of the sound. Sometimes an offending sound or instrument, is self imposed and fixed by the offender after hearing what everyone else hears. In most cases the band balance (FOH perform levels and instrument levels in relation to the entire soundscape) rarely changes from venue to venue. Overall their are "standards" that most bands follow regarding balance... lead vocal rides on top of band, bass guitar is balance a little below the lead and the drums are present but not dominant etc. You will find however the 32 band eq settings or DSP setting will change from gig to gig. I shape the FOH sound and save the setting from place to place naming them so I always have a good base setting to work from. 

 

Yes there is a learning curve for us 50+ never growing up with a computer etc. but some patience, practice and reading the manual should get you the sound you want.

Cheers,