Speaker question

[dalto]

So I know there are a lot of threads on speaker recommendations out there and I believe I have read most of them but I am struggling a little bit with what to do for my room.

 

I am looking for a stereo setup to use with Helix in my house.  It seems like people do one of three things:

 

- Use some powered studio monitors.  There are lots of these out there and most of them seem to use 4-6" speakers.  This would be a simple setup and space effective but it seems like it would be lacking on the low-end.  Maybe I am overthinking it.

 

- Use PA speakers such as the L2ts or DSR112s.  Putting a pair of these on stands would probably work.  Might be more than I need though.

 

- Use FRFR cabinets such as Atomic CLR, Friedman ASM-12's, etc.  I could be wrong but this seems like overkill for my situation.  It will also use a lot of floor space.

 

The room is ~16'x12'.  I will play mostly electric and acoustic guitar.  On rare occasions maybe a little bass but that is not the priority.  Floor space is at a premium and I would be no more than 6' from the speakers.  Weight doesn't really matter as I won't be moving them.  Budget wise I would like to spend as little as possible but I would also like to avoid buying something, deciding it isn't enough and then buying something else.(Which I do way too often)  I would definitely want to stay under 2k though.

 

I don't have a lot of experience and I worry about finding something that will work at low-moderate volumes.

 

Thanks in advance for the advice.

[silverhead]

In your case I think a pair of 6" studio monitors would be best. These will also be appropriate if you decide to get into recording. The other options seem overkill, both space and sound, for the size of your room and also are too big to use as near-field recording monitors. In that space 6" should give you enough low end without shaking the floor or walls. 5" would probably be adequate but leave you wanting more, and 4" won't cut it on the low end.

[DunedinDragon]

I agree with silverhead.  In your case you should be looking at studio monitors, but I would say don't go cheap because there is a pretty significant difference when it comes to hearing all the nuances in the sound from the Helix.

 

I do somewhat the same thing as you do at home..particularly with recording.  I've got a pair of Yamaha HS7s mainly because of the bass guitar I use occasionally, and they have been absolute workhorses for me.

 

[spikey]

Look for a pair of good used Mackie HR824's on Ebay.

 

You can thank me later...

[ncockerill]

I've had a very good experience with the JBL LSR305's. Totally affordable at ~$300/pair and they sound great for monitoring in my 11' x 12' studio. Lots of other great choices as you climb the price ladder, of course.

[spikey]

Now this may be over your budget a bit, but if you are looking for an amp too at some point, what I also use is the Firehawk 1500 (one nice working powered cab/backup with Helix) .  

[bsd512]

I agree with silverhead.  In your case you should be looking at studio monitors, but I would say don't go cheap because there is a pretty significant difference when it comes to hearing all the nuances in the sound from the Helix.

 

I do somewhat the same thing as you do at home..particularly with recording.  I've got a pair of Yamaha HS7s mainly because of the bass guitar I use occasionally, and they have been absolute workhorses for me.

 

 

I've got a pair just like this, except the HS8's.  They sound great with the Helix.  I'm still drooling over a pair of l2 or l3t's, though.  Someone please talk me out of them. :)  It's not a matter of need, but of want. :)

[dalto]

Thanks for the great feedback all!

 

In your case I think a pair of 6" studio monitors would be best. These will also be appropriate if you decide to get into recording. The other options seem overkill, both space and sound, for the size of your room and also are too big to use as near-field recording monitors. In that space 6" should give you enough low end without shaking the floor or walls. 5" would probably be adequate but leave you wanting more, and 4" won't cut it on the low end.

 

Sounds like monitors are the way to go, thanks.

 

I agree with silverhead.  In your case you should be looking at studio monitors, but I would say don't go cheap because there is a pretty significant difference when it comes to hearing all the nuances in the sound from the Helix.

 

I do somewhat the same thing as you do at home..particularly with recording.  I've got a pair of Yamaha HS7s mainly because of the bass guitar I use occasionally, and they have been absolute workhorses for me.

 

What do you think of the HS8 vs the HS7 for my size room?  The price is almost the same but I would rather have whatever will work best.

 

Look for a pair of good used Mackie HR824's on Ebay.

 

You can thank me later...

 

I take it the mkii's are a totally different speaker?

 

Now this may be over your budget a bit, but if you are looking for an amp too at some point, what I also use is the Firehawk 1500 (one nice working powered cab/backup with Helix) .  

 

I thought about that but I was wondering how it would do at low volume.  One of the problems I find with guitar amps is getting them at room levels sometimes requires micro-managing the volume between 0-1. I would also probably have to find something to put it on to get it off the floor.

 

 

I've got a pair just like this, except the HS8's.  They sound great with the Helix.  I'm still drooling over a pair of l2 or l3t's, though.  Someone please talk me out of them. :)  It's not a matter of need, but of want. :)

 

I considered the l2ts but I was worried they would be too much.
 

[bsd512]

 

 

I considered the l2ts but I was worried they would be too much.

 

 

Ha, if it's worth doing, it's worth over-doing. :) 

 

You're completely, right, though.  I just get carried away, sometimes.  Ok, I get carried away a lot.  :)

[dalto]

Ha, if it's worth doing, it's worth over-doing. :)

 

That is pretty much my catch-phrase :)

[dalto]

I have been reading reviews on the Yamaha HS series monitors you guys recommended and a lot of people recommend putting them away from the walls since they are rear ported.  In my scenario they will be about 6" from the wall.

 

How big of a real world problem is that for guitar?

[roscoe5]

I'm not a pro studio guy, but I do get some weirdness with my rear-ported M-Audio BX-5's too close to the wall.  They are about 24" away from the wall on my little Studio RTA desk in a small 10x10 home office.

 

I do remember reading that the tweeters should be about ear level for you.

 

I found a good thread with someone specifically asking about HS5 and discussion about 1/3 listening distance rules.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/newbie-audio-engineering-production-question-zone/918120-monitors-near-wall-yamaha-hs5.html

 

Pretty good article on listing environment setup

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/room-setup-speaker-placement/

[DunedinDragon]

My HS7's are actually facing out from opposite corners about 8 inches away from the wall.  It produces pretty good bass, but I don't think it's over the top at all.  If they get too bassy there's a room control switch on the rear that drops everything below 500hz either -2db or -4db.  I've never needed to use it.

 

They actually are a bit better mannered in terms of bass response than my Yamaha DXR12's which can have a boomy bass on some amp models and cabinets.  I've never had that boomy bass issue with the HS7's.

[bsd512]

My HS8's are on stands putting them at head height, so they are not sitting directly on a desk or actually near a wall.  As DunedinDragon mentioned, they have a couple of switches to compensate for the room - one for bass (0, -2db, or -4db tail-off below 500Hz) and a 3-position high trim (+2db, 0, and -2db for above 2kHz).  Both mine are on the null/zero setting and I actually haven't messed with those.

[dalto]

I'm not a pro studio guy, but I do get some weirdness with my rear-ported M-Audio BX-5's too close to the wall.  They are about 24" away from the wall on my little Studio RTA desk in a small 10x10 home office.

 

I do remember reading that the tweeters should be about ear level for you.

 

I found a good thread with someone specifically asking about HS5 and discussion about 1/3 listening distance rules.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/newbie-audio-engineering-production-question-zone/918120-monitors-near-wall-yamaha-hs5.html

 

Pretty good article on listing environment setup

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/room-setup-speaker-placement/

 

Thanks!  I read that first link which one of the reasons I began to be concerned.

 

My HS7's are actually facing out from opposite corners about 8 inches away from the wall.  It produces pretty good bass, but I don't think it's over the top at all.  If they get too bassy there's a room control switch on the rear that drops everything below 500hz either -2db or -4db.  I've never needed to use it.

 

They actually are a bit better mannered in terms of bass response than my Yamaha DXR12's which can have a boomy bass on some amp models and cabinets.  I've never had that boomy bass issue with the HS7's.

 

Thanks, good to know you are having success with them close to the wall.

 

My HS8's are on stands putting them at head height, so they are not sitting directly on a desk or actually near a wall.  As DunedinDragon mentioned, they have a couple of switches to compensate for the room - one for bass (0, -2db, or -4db tail-off below 500Hz) and a 3-position high trim (+2db, 0, and -2db for above 2kHz).  Both mine are on the null/zero setting and I actually haven't messed with those.

Mine will be on stands at an appropriate height as well but the layout of the room pretty much dictates that they will very close to a wall and a window.

[dalto]

I thought I would follow-up and let everyone know how it turned out.

 

I started out by grabbing a pair of 8" studio monitors that were on the used rack at my local store.  I felt like something was missing so I did some A/B testing against an inexpensive modeling amp I had lying around.  The monitors sounded better than the amp but it I preferred the amp more.  I don't think I have the right words to describe it but it was like the difference between hearing the guitar through an amp and hearing a recording of the guitar through a speaker.  The monitors were just too refined, especially on the lower end.

 

I decided to try an l2t to see how that would compare and then did the same comparison test with one of the the monitors.  For me, this was much better.  Even at lower volumes the difference was obvious.  An improvement over both the modeling amp and the monitor.

[bsd512]

Thanks for the follow-up!

 

I too have indulged myself and have a pair of L3T's on the way.  Should be here tomorrow.  I can't wait!  :)

[dietmd]

Been experimenting with a bunch of different combinations and permutations. I know I've wasted a bunch of money but hell this is my hobby and I'm gonna play till I drop!!!

I had an Amplifi 150 and tried to connect the Helix through the Stereo Aux In== Very Thin, not motivating, and a waste of money (The Amplifi that is. It's a toy!!)

I have a rack mounted Carver GA250 Guitar Power Amp-- A truly pro piece of gear that's 20 yeas old.(Sorry Bob Carver is gone he was a true auditory genius and died much too young :() So I plugged it into two Boogie 12" EV Black Shadow Thiele loaded Cabinets but the setup is still missing something in the High End with the JTV's acoustic models. It was just missing that Piezo tingle you get with an acoustic amp. Sounds killer otherwise so... I bought a pair of cheap Piezo tweeter arrays and they improved things but still not perfect. So---

I bought a Firehawk 1500-- It's cool-- BUT--- trying to hook it up WDW has phase issues and unless you use three connections the Horn is dead plus you need to modify your Helix models to accommodate for the settings!! Now I'm using it connected via Bluetooth to my backing tracks so I can Jam at a nice volume level! I'm still not satisfied so--- After reading lots of comments and being a die hard gear nut!!! I thought about the powered PA speaker/monitor suggestions I read about, JBL EONs, ALTO 12Ts, Mackie Thumpers, etc.Saw some cheap speakers at----COSTCO!!--- Ion 15" Bluetooth junk!! for $199.00 each. Listened to their built in FM radio right in the store and thought about a pair of them. Being a gear nut :wacko: I came home Googled them and found a guy in Florida selling Manufacturer Refurbished units for $107 each with free shipping and I bought a pair. They should be arriving in the next few days. If they suck I'm out another $214 if not---- :D  We shall see!!

In reality why the hell Line6 does not offer a decent powered unit Ala Firehawk sold side by side with the Helix, designed to be used by us overzealous gear mongers is a real question?? Spending another $1400-$2000+ on a pair of L2Ts or L3Ts is the only next step for me i guess, but- I resent Line6 making me change my entire guitar playing habitus forcing me to play though PA gear or floor monitors while I'm just trying to use their flagship "The Helix" for what it was designed!! Lets not get into my two DT50s that are now gathering dust or the fact that I have to pull out a dongle device to update my 3 JTVs because Helix won't speak to Workbench. === "You can't really believe what you see and hear can you?  Now if you'll excuse me I must be on my way" :rolleyes: And so the saga continues!!

[DunedinDragon]

Been experimenting with a bunch of different combinations and permutations. I know I've wasted a bunch of money but hell this is my hobby and I'm gonna play till I drop!!!

I had an Amplifi 150 and tried to connect the Helix through the Stereo Aux In== Very Thin, not motivating, and a waste of money (The Amplifi that is. It's a toy!!)

I have a rack mounted Carver GA250 Guitar Power Amp-- A truly pro piece of gear that's 20 yeas old.(Sorry Bob Carver is gone he was a true auditory genius and died much too young :() So I plugged it into two Boogie 12" EV Black Shadow Thiele loaded Cabinets but the setup is still missing something in the High End with the JTV's acoustic models. It was just missing that Piezo tingle you get with an acoustic amp. Sounds killer otherwise so... I bought a pair of cheap Piezo tweeter arrays and they improved things but still not perfect. So---

I bought a Firehawk 1500-- It's cool-- BUT--- trying to hook it up WDW has phase issues and unless you use three connections the Horn is dead plus you need to modify your Helix models to accommodate for the settings!! Now I'm using it connected via Bluetooth to my backing tracks so I can Jam at a nice volume level! I'm still not satisfied so--- After reading lots of comments and being a die hard gear nut!!! I thought about the powered PA speaker/monitor suggestions I read about, JBL EONs, ALTO 12Ts, Mackie Thumpers, etc.Saw some cheap speakers at----COSTCO!!--- Ion 15" Bluetooth junk!! for $199.00 each. Listened to their built in FM radio right in the store and thought about a pair of them. Being a gear nut :wacko: I came home Googled them and found a guy in Florida selling Manufacturer Refurbished units for $107 each with free shipping and I bought a pair. They should be arriving in the next few days. If they suck I'm out another $214 if not---- :D  We shall see!!

In reality why the hell Line6 does not offer a decent powered unit Ala Firehawk sold side by side with the Helix, designed to be used by us overzealous gear mongers is a real question?? Spending another $1400-$2000+ on a pair of L2Ts or L3Ts is the only next step for me i guess, but- I resent Line6 making me change my entire guitar playing habitus forcing me to play though PA gear or floor monitors while I'm just trying to use their flagship "The Helix" for what it was designed!! Lets not get into my two DT50s that are now gathering dust or the fact that I have to pull out a dongle device to update my 3 JTVs because Helix won't speak to Workbench. === "You can't really believe what you see and hear can you?  Now if you'll excuse me I must be on my way" :rolleyes: And so the saga continues!!

 

I don't think Line 6 had anything to do with "forcing" you to play through anything.  There are tons of users happily playing through traditional amps or through FRFR speakers.  Your choice to go through all these various permutations is your choice not Line 6's.  The fact is the Helix will work with most any output system you want to throw at it.  Personally I had no qualms about going the FRFR route with my Yamaha DXR12's.  But I knew what I was going to do BEFORE I got the Helix based on my research.

 

Reading your post is like the old joke about the guy that goes to the doctor saying, "Doc, it hurts when I do this."  The doctor says, "Well then, don't do that!"

[shanecgriffo]

haha, i think he's just a compulsive gear nut trying to make excuses 😆

[dietmd]

I admitted to start that I'm a gear hound! For which I make no excuses! I still feel that a change in format from a speaker cabinet behind you to the FRFR format is a major fork in the road.

Absolutely right Line6 ain't forcing me to do ANYTHING but from the point of view of a devout hobbiest the change from "Stamp Collecting" to "Email Saving" is a big change.

[DunedinDragon]

I figured out about 30 years ago that no amount of gear will ever make me a better guitarist.  Saved my sanity and my pocketbook.....  ;)

[zooey]

True that, but my pocketbook's still hurting from Helix, which I did anyway, and love, and my sanity's MIA in general.

[dalto]

Thanks for the follow-up!

 

I too have indulged myself and have a pair of L3T's on the way.  Should be here tomorrow.  I can't wait!   :)

 

Congrats!  I didn't have the courage to go all the way to the l3t.  Those suckers are tall.

 

I figured out about 30 years ago that no amount of gear will ever make me a better guitarist. 

 

Wait, what?  Are you serious? 

[dietmd]

Not true!! The more gear the better!! He who dies with the most toys wins!! If you can't afford to lose don't play! And by the way buying more gear has made me a much better player! Just ask the guys I buy gear from!!! Ha!!!

[spikey]

I figured out about 30 years ago that no amount of gear will ever make me a better guitarist.  Saved my sanity and my pocketbook.....   ;)

 

And as you are lying on your deathbed many years later, remembering that 59 Les paul you could have had for a song, whiles relatives now come out of the woodwork to fight over your abundant wealth...  ;)

[bsd512]

Congrats!  I didn't have the courage to go all the way to the l3t.  Those suckers are tall.

 

 

They only come up to my waist, so a just little taller than a half-stack cabinet and a whole lot skinnier. :-)

 

I will say - after a day or so with these, I can only say the sound quality is top shelf.  All the patches that sound great through my headphones and HS8's sound equally great through these monsters, even at low volume.  I've turned them up a bit, enough to be painful and they deliver as advertised!  Great sound, very accurate.  I'm just using PA reference mode for now.

 

When I run the HS8's at the same volume level as the L3T's - feeding the L3T's from the Line 6 Link from Helix, and HS8's from 1/4" outs to a mixer -> HS8's and adjusting the levels of each pair to taste, the sound is to die for in my medium sized room.

 

That's it.  I'm done.  I have achieved Nirvana.  :)

 

And I have yet to run drum and bass tracks through them - I'm thinking that might be the only (slight) advantage of the L3's over the L2's (low end) but I really only got the L3's because they were within a few percent of the price of the L2's and since I won't be moving them too much, the portability of the L2's wasn't a huge selling point - so I went for the extra hardware in the L3's.

 

So if you're looking for some extremely capable FRFR that will blow you away in sound quality - high or low volume, look no further, stop beating around the bush, and take the plunge and get yourself a pair of L2's or L3's.  Or just one, if mono is your thing. :)

 

Just my opinion, of course, no affiliation with Line 6 or anyone else.

[WickedFinger]

Well speaking of massive sonic overkill I have a pair of EV 15s (powered ZLX-15P)

and if that is not enough I also run a power amp'd stereo split wired 4x12 with Eminence Man 'O War's which is my go guitar rig package. 

It is not about seeing how loud you can make everything, it's just the headroom and range. Daddy likes Wattage. 

Many times I do not use them both on the guitar rig usually either or, but the EV's also run my secondary feeds from my EHX Mel9 line that also has my Trio unit. So most of the time it's my 4x12 with the EVs used for my Mel9 and Trio background. To be honest I do not always like the full range on the models but the Eminence are not low wattage low fidelity, true they have guitar roll off  but the guitar has a specific range as well. To be honest I love the EVs for their massive bottom end capability and I used them on my GR-55 guitar synth when I had that rig going. Sold off the synth but still have the EVs so pretty cool to be able to use a range of options. 

These days smaller speakers can manifest low end more than you might imagine, for me it is wattage handling ability and not tubbing out or not being able to handle what is thrown at them. The EVs are powerful enough to PA a reasonable size band and fill a small club but do nicely in my studio space not cranked to wake the dead. I have speaker stands for them but i tend to like the sound coming off the floor you can also tilt them like monitors if you like. 

Big fan of EV.