My helix thoughts.. open for suggestions

[twystedriffs]

First off, I play in a very diverse rock band, and a Police tribute. I just upgraded to helix after a long ride on pod x3live. Same issues, bust first my simple rig. Line 6 stereo out into 2 crate powerblocks each on a 2x12. I create tons of patches, and get complimented on my sound a lot. But my patches are always so much louder than the preset material. Completely unusable in the studio direct or headphones. But through an amp and speakers sound great. I was hoping helix would balance that out, but same thing. Very loud custom patches compared to the presets. At the same time i am missing some just overall live sound with these new hix patches. Ive tried into the front of the amp, and as a loop, and not much difference. Sounds great untill the drums and bass kick in. Gonna play with global eq at next rehearsal. The editing is a breeze, love so much about it, just wush i had a live sound that could go into a PA or recording console and be at least workable. Mine are so harsh and tinny. I hear alot of improvements in the helix, but still some of the same issues. Ive only had it a week now, but have made about 15 patches and have about 50 hours on it. Yes i stayed home from work for 2 days when it arrived, cause i really want to start gigging with it asap.

[WickedFinger]

Personally man, you could not give me a POD. I left L6 after my HD POD phase, had issues I just could not resolve with it. Hides them pretty well in a 4CM thing (they must have prayed most used) but I ran into all sorts of problems as a stand alone rig core. 

I learned how to create massive sounding dual amp presets (remember the L6 genius "meambobbo" who wrote an advanced user manual?) but they used all the DSP and had much of nothing left for any effects. The Helix brought me back to L6 as it truly is a different animal than a POD. This is "component" modeling not merely surface mimic of how an amp sounds or a weak pedal copy. The new front end effects are good but the ability to farm out to other stuff works damn well with this unit. I have to use a gate NR after the loop return but these gates are really well done in the Helix not chokers like the POD. 

There are some new effects in there which can be really great sounding once you learn the tweaks. Tri-Chorus, Dynamic Flanger, Vibe are amazing. 

 

Here is a nice review of the mighty Helix. I am hyper critical of most gear but I find the Helix a jewel with its massive ability for routing and loops. 

 

http://tonereport.com/blogs/tone-tips/line-6-and-yamahas-absolutely-incredible-collaboration-the-helix

[rvroberts]

Hi Twystedriffs,

I can help you with some of this I suspect.

Firstly - you are running into 2x12 cabs - you haven't said what they are or the speakers inside, but I'm going to assume based on your problem they are guitar speakers?

Guitar speakers have a dramatically limited frequency response designed to work well for guitar.  Your first problem is that full range speakers - your PA or recording equipment - are full range!  So without the effect of the speakers you are very likely sending a lot of nasty high frequencies (and some very low ones too) that don't sound good for guitar and particularly nasty for overdrive.  So if you have a great sound out of your 2x12s and rubbish out of everything else  - that's where the problem comes from.  If you can't get great sounds out of the rig you describe (remember there are a lot of pros here, so they won't generally be wrong about getting great sounds!!) then its you who is doing something fundamentally wrong.

I don't know how Crate power blocks are configured, but I see they have an input with tone controls.  I gather from your comments they also have a loop - use the loop.  Why? Because the Helix is an amp simulator, If you plug into the front you are probably plugging into a guitar preamp with its own frequency curves and other stuff that is designed to help you get a guitar sound - which is exactly what the amp models in the Helix do - you don't want to do that twice - you will have just dumped half you frequency range.

As you are using guitar speakers, you don't want to use any cab simulation or IRs.  Again, you will be simulating the effect of speakers and then sending that reduced very midrange sound to speakers that will do that frequency limiting again.

All the presets you are going to find with the Helix or on the net are not designed for your type of rig.

This might be most of your problem with presets - they will have an amp model and a speaker cab - go through the loop and remove the cab sim (if its a combo amp, you will need to swap it for the equivalent amp with no speakers).

So if you do what I just said, you should be getting much better results for your live sound.  Your next problem, is you now don't have a great signal to send to front of house.  You have 2 choices - mic your cabs in the traditional way or create a seperate output with a cab sim for feeding to FOH - unfortunately because the Helix is really designed to work with FRFR speakers, you can't do that globally - you will need to add a cab sim and rout a second output to FOH.

If you still find you have drastically different levels from your own patches to the modified presets as I've described, there are lots of places in your patch chain to adjust level - I'm wondering if you are actually overdriving the front end of your amps at the moment to help give you tones guts.  Again, that's not the way to use the Helix - make all the drive you need in the patch not on the amp.

Hope some of that helps you.

[DunedinDragon]

I think rvroberts gave you a pretty good overview of some of the things you may have to deal with in your setup with a Helix, but just to expand on a couple of things here.

 

I'm not sure why, even with the X3Live your presets would run so much louder.  An integral aspect of modeling systems is that you don't really use volume to craft the tone.  The tone will be the same regardless of the volume setting.  Even on the X3Live the Master Volume only controls the level of the signal going out and has no further effect on the tone which is crafted using the other controls such as Drive and Tone Volume.  The idea being, with X3Live, HD500X, or Helix, or any other modeler for that matter, you craft the tone you want and use the Master Volume to manage the overall output level (no effect on tone).  That is then sent to (ideally) a clean output amp (no pre-amp or gain) and on to speakers.

 

As rvroberts pointed out, you may not have experienced it so much with the X3Live, but certainly since the HD series and with the Helix the precision of the modeling has increased exponentially along with the separation of the effect of the amp, the cabinet, and the mic/mic placement has on tone (along with numerous other things like Bias and Sag).  Naturally you can bypass these effects and depend on a traditional guitar amp and speaker setup (bypassing the pre-amp) to provide the effect of the cabinet and mic, but you will then have to deal with any direct signal going to the PA or to a recording system which will be very unnatural sounding because it's not mitigated by the cabinet and mic effects.

 

If you want to keep your current setup with the powerblock and the 2x12 cabinets then you would need to make some choices about how to deal with this situation as outlined in rvroberts post.

 

Alternatively you can go the route of least resistance (which is what many of us have done) and move to a FRFR setup which solves the entire issue.  The value being that the sound we hear on stage from the FRFR powered speaker will be exactly what comes out of the PA or gets captured in a direct recording.  That's not to say that you won't have to do a bit of tweaking of some very high and very low frequencies that are not naturally heard on most guitar rigs.  Most of us have found we need to place low cut filters somewhere around 100 to 140 hz to tighten up the low end and get rid of boominess, and high cut filters generally up in the range of 3500 to 5000 hz to get rid of excess harshness.  Of course all of these things really depend on the modeled cabinet and microphone you use on the patch, but generally speaking these frequencies are outside the range of a typical electric guitar rig.

 

It may help if you begin to think of the Helix more as a recording production studio rather than an effect or modeling pedal.  With the Helix you're doing the same thing you would do in a recording studio which is develop a signal chain consisting of effects, amps, cabinets, mics to precisely craft the tone you want to capture.  Once you've designed that signal chain and it's components you manage the output of that signal using the Master Volume into a clean, full-range recording or live output mechanism.

 

Hopefully that helps give you some perspective.

[twystedriffs]

Hey guys thanks for the insight. I have been playing guitar for 30 years but I've never been too much of a Tech head. I just twist stuff till it sounds good but when I switch to Line 6 products I like to abuse it. I know some guys that have 4 or 5 patches that use, I'll use 25 + on a night. On the X3 live I went into the front of the amp and I found the little extra EQ and Gain gave me how much bigger tone and overcame some of the issues with the pod. My cabinets are a line 6×12 and a crate by the way. With the helix I am going into the effects Loop of the crate and was hoping that would give me a similar sound to what you would hear in the PA or if I recorded straight into my studio. Maybe I just like my patches too hot? I have a small practice PA set-up at home, not FRFR, maybe you should play around with the settings on that. Make a duplicate setlist and tweak it for going to the front of the house. By the way I also like my cabinets like I always have. So I guess my live rig sounds great but it's just not compatible to use any other way. Guess it's time to look into FR system because that's really the way I wanted to go with helix. I learned on my second day of playing with it to turn all the speaker cabinets off and just amps or preamps. I have a Living Color sound I've been working on where I actually put a speaker cabinet on the second chain with a distortion pedal on it and it gives a cool undertone. But after buying Helix and reading all these reviews and forums I feel I'm missing half the bag not being able to use cabinets and IR settings in my gear. I have to have some stage volume so miking has always been the only solution for me. Yes I have started down the path so I must follow it LOL.

[twystedriffs]

Excuse the typos please. It was late and I was using my cell phone😎

[gunpointmetal]

Gig sounds through real guitar cabs sound like crap at low volume or through a PA. For your tones to work in that setting you need to set them up that way. Recording sounds can be DRASTICALLY different from live sounds as far as EQ, tone, etc. When you're running through a real guitar speaker, a lot of the harsh/tinny gets filtered by the speakers and where you stand in relation to your gear. When I was using real cabs, I would dial in my tones sitting on the floor in front of my 4x12 so I could get a better idea of what the mic would be hearing and make sure that people in the "beam" weren't getting their heads ripped off with high end. My tones ended up sounding a little dull standing 10' in front of the cab with it no longer pointing at my head, but I knew the microphone was getting "my tone" to be reproduced through the PA. It's the same with using full tones that include cab modeling to go FOH direct. You have to account for the EQ tweaks you'd hear AFTER a microphone/board are in place to get the right sounds. I go direct and most of the DI patches are really mid-heavy, high-passed around 110Hz, and low-passed around 6-7 kHz and they sound big and full and bright without being harsh, but if I go home and try to record at a moderate volume, those same patches sound a little dull and thin, so I have to adjust my EQ, maybe even which mic or cab model I'm using to get the same "feel" out of the sounds at talking/mixing volume. There is NO modeler that sounds exactly right going from a patch that sound amazing in studio monitors or headphones to a live sound situation. You're dealing with amplitude modulation, Fletcher-Munson, and directionality, so you have to approach the patch creation differently.

Build some patches from the ground up running through a loud set of PA speakers aimed at your dome, and see how those work for you. 

[jpdennis]

+1 gunpointmetal

 

I had to go through a learning curve on this little beast.  I run my patches a little hot through the headphones I have, open back 250 ohm, and did reading on the frequency response of the speakers I have in most all my rigs which are the 1970s EVM12L; that determined what hi/lo pass for me.  I apply that to most all blocks that have a frequency adjustment; not just speakers.  After that I set the global EQ to tone down the overall output presets I use and go direct letting the onstage mixer balance the fullback send (we each have individual monitor sends) and off stage mixer does the FOH. 

 

Dennis

[twystedriffs]

Thanks alot yall.. think I'll go with miking the cabs for now, im pretty happy with what I'm getting that way. Maybe I'll do a second version of everything through the p.a. Few things to take of before I'm able to justify some FRFR speakers. Your advise is kind of what I was expecting, but a few great nuggets of advise in there.. happy gigging!

[WickedFinger]

Food for thought:

Guitar speakers are a varied lot. There is a huge difference in low efficiency low wattage classic guitar speakers than higher wattage more efficient models.

Now in theory it is correct to think that if one is using guitar speakers one does not need an IR after the amp, but, let me explain what I use and have done.

I have two separate rigs, a full range pair of EV15" PA  speakers amd a custom wired stereo cab 4x12 loaded with high wattage Eminence Man O War 12s.

I can use both or either in my rig as it suits me. Now if I may:

EQ is directly related to volume level. What sounds good adjusted at low level or headphones may not be suitable at all w band volume. Period.

In running my rig)s): theory wise, since I use a power amp rig I probably do not "need" the amp model and in theory a preamp should do well, and if I have the 4x12 then I do not need speaker IR on my models.

BUT, an easy A/B of the tones reveals that often the full amp model sounds great and using IRs imparts the tonal quality of a different speaker response to my cab so everything is not the same or subject to having the same speaker issue on every preset. 

Not all PRESETS need adhere to the same design config rules.

 

Here's the deal, "full range", I built a full range stereo EV 15" rig for my GR-55 guitar synth BECAUSE the synth could manifest ranges beyond the spectrum of the guitar response which made perfect sense with the synth. The guitar speakers could not reproduce the higher and lower ranges of other musical instruments and the full FRFR speakers on that rig were immediately apparent. Hands down better. Sonic physics and logic rock solid. 

 

Now here is where the full range theory runs into some problems.

On a modeler, which is designed to reproduce GUITAR AMP tones and response through IRs which have the range and impulse of guitar spectrum, why full range, when there would seem to be nothing there to reproduce?? (recalling sonic physics here in regard to wattage on a PA sound system, we use sub sonic filters to cut off the low end as that uses and robs the system of wattage and adds nothing to the music but rumble and mud. If you want ultra low end one uses subwoofers powered outside the normal PA speakers.) 

 

Honestly, I get and can hear the logic of FRFR on the guitar synth needs, but, on a guitar system which is not really reproducing highs and lows outside the range of the guitar or amp then the logic of FRFR seems flawed.

What I can hear and use on my rig is that the FRFR system using various amp modelers just does not sound as good as my high end Eminence 4x12 cab, not the punch, power, push or presence at all. Just sounds better and whether you use a full amp model use a speaker IR for tones is just simply relative to the result in question. If the preset sounds better using them then guess what, use them.

 

Every time I hear my modelers through the FRFR rig and this is true of a few I have used or have, the bass is flubby and over bearing as it is trying to produce things a guitar amp was really not meant to have, and  the high end more shrill as the guitar range stopped low before the upper 20K response of the FRFR which really just adds more noise and hiss to what would have been a clear signal. Ever hear that special over blown bass overwhelm in someone's car as they put a hell of lot of bass rumble and mud in "music" that it never really had? Do we want or need the guitar to produce low end or high shrill that is really does not need or produce? 

 

Does FRFR sound good, well certainly it can be adjusted to do well, but honestly kosher theory aside I prefer the sounds coming out of my 4x12 Eminence loaded cab hands down. One has to ask the magical question why does an "amp modeler" with "guitar speaker cab IR's" need a FRFR range of frequencies outside of the range it is supposed to be reproducing??

Any thought given to this simple result of physics that the crossover on the PA FRFR speakers is splitting your signal right smack in the middle of the central guitar mid point to the tweeter and woofer section(s)? Is that conducive to tone or the punch and presence of in your face guitar tones?

 

From what I hear and experience the better guitar speakers kick major butt because they sound like a guitar amp which is I thought what the modeler was supposed to be doing. 

Does the FRFR rig sound good, sure given the right EQ and adjust it should sound great, my quest is always what sounds better, not what in theory should sound better.

 

Without a doubt on my GR-55 guitar synth rig FRFR was a MUST. But looking at the entire gestalt of the issue of FRFR verses the aspect of better more efficient, higher wattage handling. often slightly greater freq response Guitar speakers is being dumped into cheaper low efficiency, low wattage guitar speakers and that my friends is a serious flaw in the FRFR logic.

 

If a modeler and IR is designed and meant to reproduce what a guitar amp and a guitar cab do and sound, then what are we reproducing so much higher and lower than the guitar, amp and cab IR are actually designed to do? Add in the crossover network splitting your main frequency of the guitar in two (or more) routes to different speakers and really can one imagine the better unified punch and power of a high end 12" guitar speaker just maybe sounding better??

 

Bottom line: Try everything, EQ everything at the level it will be used, try the preset with combination of full amp model. preamp model, IR and no IR. Run it through the PA FRFR thing and the guitar cabs as just pick the best sounding result. Now before the argument begins spare me the comparison of FRFR quality high wattage speakers to cheap green back low wattage guitar speakers or what not. I am speaking of high end 12" guitar speakers capable of 150watts with much better efficiency and response. I can stand right here and not only hear but feel the power and punch of that 4x12 and it is dead quiet.

SO again, bottom line rule, use what sounds the best. lollipop on guitar speakers(?), hold back on that assumption as the theory surrounding guitar range and frequencies does not quite make logic sense. 

 

Classic old vintage guitar speakers low wattage that really color and degrade signal, NO, NO and again NO, but higher end speakers they make these days, do not dismiss them off hand as they have a power a punch that you will notice on stage and trying to cut through a band mix. Ever notice that when you run your guitar out to the PA and/or monitors, the sound is more loose, undefined, spaced and reverberish? Think about what I have said.

One solid rule is use what sounds the best, 2nd rule is do not apply a blanket null to using full amp model over preamp or yes or no IR, try every combination as some preset designs are going to work better and sound better doing things one might not do in another. 

 

So the higher wattage higher end guitar cab speakers work great on modelers because, they can handle anything thrown at them with punch, power and unsplit tones while using an IR of often less efficient speakers modeled imparts the sound of those cheaper speakers and/or different cab response without the limitations of using them. Why does one use an IR on  FRFR speakers, simple answer to cut and roll off the frequencies outside the guitar normal range. 

 

Something else to ponder in regard to mic'ing cabs, if you have a great IR going in your modeler then modern DI technology (Radial) offers speaker line taps which take the main sound going to the cabs and send it to PA or recorders without using mic's. Just FYI. 

[gunpointmetal]

Have you ever listened to what a guitar sounds like, unprocessed through a amp->cab->microphone->console, or directly on-axis of a guitar speaker? Guitar speakers have a limited range, but it doesn't simply "cut off" at a certain frequency. The raw tone of something like a Mesa/Engl at really high gain settings sounds fizzy, harsh, and nasally without any processing if you're directly in-front of it. Guitar tones most traditional amp players are comfortable with come from distance/off-axis listening, so when they hear an unprocessed, direct-mic'ed signal, it might seem off (harsh/fizz/broken) and that's what a modeler gives you as a starting point. That full-chain, unprocessed signal. 

Though I agree that traditional cabs can sound "bigger" in a room, its only bigger in a limited frequency area. If you're not going to go direct, it won't make a lick of difference, but if you're sending an IR/cab sound out to the front, but basing it on how that tone sounds through your guitar cab, the sound guy is not gonna like what he hears, because in order to get the brightness and fullness out of cab running IR's/Cabs, you're going to have to boost your highs and cut your lows to get an "expected" guitar cab sound, and the sound that goes to the FOH will more than likely by small and buzzy.

There's not right or wrong way, it just depends on the usage. But to say that guitar cabs offer any real sonic advantage over a full-range cab is simply opinion based on experience. Plus, with a full-range cab, should you decide to search for sounds outside normal guitar amp-type tones (like your synth, wild oscillators, or crazy reverbs), the FRFR approach won't limit you to the smaller output range of a traditional cab. For me the biggest thing about going FRFR is flexibility. 

[roscoe5]

Hey, heads up on those Crate Power blocks. As the schematic in the Crate manual shows, there are (crappy) cab sims in the 1/4" left/right power amp ins in the back. The RCA CD inputs on the back are the only truly clean unaffected inputs to them. I have confirmed this myself.

 

I currently use one with a 2x12 guitar cab. I actually use Helix amp models with no cabs, connect a stereo 1/4" cable out of the phones out to a 1/4"-RCA Y cable into the CD inputs of the CPB. I split the signal at the end of my patch signal chains with one output set to 1/4" (really its phones out...see below...no cab blocks to stage amp) and the other set to XLR (with cab block to the PA).

 

In the Global settings I have Phones set to monitor 1\4" only so that I can use the Helix Phones knob for stage amp volume and the main Helix Volume knob for XLR to the PA.

 

In can post a Crate Power Block preset with just a simple amp and all of the path splits to Line 6 Custom Tone tomorrow for you.

[DunedinDragon]

There really are two different perspectives on this cabinet versus FRFR situation.  Although I'm concerned about what I hear on stage, I'm FAR more concerned about what my audience hears.  They are the reason I'm playing, they are the ones paying the tab for me to play.  What good is it if I have the greatest tone ever on stage if the audience isn't getting the benefit of it?

 

This is the reason I made the commitment to using a FRFR rig.  This often results in taking more time to dial in my patches to get the sound closer to what a traditional cabinet would give me, but I have absolute confidence that the mix of my instrument and the rest of the instruments and vocals on stage matches quite well with the experience the audience gets, and have confirmed this with recordings I make when we perform that produce 2 stereo tracks of ambient sound and 2 tracks of direct sound out of the mixing board using a Tascam DR-40, as well as occasionally capturing a full multi-track recording off of the board using an Allen and Heath ICE-16 .  I can honestly say that this is the closest I've ever come to achieving studio quality sound in a live performance. 

 

I've played live for well over 40 years and I've had my share of traditional amps and great cabinets, but this is the first time in my career that I can confidently say the stage mix I hear is precisely what the audience is hearing, and that's the real target for me.

[roscoe5]

There really are two different perspectives on this cabinet versus FRFR situation.  Although I'm concerned about what I hear on stage, I'm FAR more concerned about what my audience hears.  They are the reason I'm playing, they are the ones paying the tab for me to play.  What good is it if I have the greatest tone ever on stage if the audience isn't getting the benefit of it?

 

This is the reason I made the commitment to using a FRFR rig.  This often results in taking more time to dial in my patches to get the sound closer to what a traditional cabinet would give me, but I have absolute confidence that the mix of my instrument and the rest of the instruments and vocals on stage matches quite well with the experience the audience gets, and have confirmed this with recordings I make when we perform that produce 2 stereo tracks of ambient sound and 2 tracks of direct sound out of the mixing board using a Tascam DR-40, as well as occasionally capturing a full multi-track recording off of the board using an Allen and Heath ICE-16 .  I can honestly say that this is the closest I've ever come to achieving studio quality sound in a live performance. 

 

I've played live for well over 40 years and I've had my share of traditional amps and great cabinets, but this is the first time in my career that I can confidently say the stage mix I hear is precisely what the audience is hearing, and that's the real target for me.

 

 

This is exactly the reason I IR'd my own Mesa stage cabs with multiple mics and the exact amp(s) I use with it.  My FOH IR is a mix of two mics/positions of my own cab.  With this approach, I can actually play a few rare gigs where no amp is allowed and have the same sound too (casino, etc.).

 

I have Helix IR slot 1 on all of my patches and can just put in the IR of the amp/cab I am using for a gig.  If I'm using the small 1x12 open back combo, then I put that IR mix in slot 1.  If I'm using the 2x12 Recto, I put that in 1.  Sometimes I don't care and leave the 2x12.  It's flexible.

 

This is totally my personal preference and I understand it's not everyone's, but I actually didn't really feel compelled to have different cab/IR blocks on every patch to craft my tones. I do have a love for the V30 speaker and any other cab/IR model sounds odd to me, so for me this works well.  I feel I have plenty of variety with Helix amps, drives, EQ's, etc. without swapping cabs, as it did with physical multiple Mesa amps into the same cab pre-Helix.  I think there is a tonal consistency for me/band/audience/sound man gained by locking in on a good core cab/IR block(s).

 

Of course you dont HAVE to make your own and can certainly find a cab or IR similar to yours, or just go old skool and mic the cab.

[WickedFinger]

I just wish the FRFR sounded as good as the users wished. I have both and very high end products. The FRFR just does not sound as good. I get the theories but perhaps no one is able to read the issues of what is going on, I tried to explain above.

You IR the full range to the basic response curve of a guitar cab as that is what the IR is. Many of you further low cut and high cut the signal and then presume a full range is buying something outside of what you just cut. It makes no sense. And if your amp is shrill and tinny or whatever maybe adjusting it properly might help.

For high gain the Mesa V or Cali EQ is a must but that is not a part of the FRFR issue really. 

 

Despite guitar speakers have a roll off designed for guitar, mine starts dropping at 5K but the presence control on most amps is around 9K and you can hear that on guitar speakers most assuredly. You guys are confusing guitar speaker roll off with a complete cut of frequencies or the inability for the speaker to produce them. I would be the first to say that FRFR on my prior GR-55 guitar synth rig were paramount important as the synth created instruments and ranges beyond the scope of the guitar itself and you could hear the difference right off but on my guitar system my Eminence sound much better and can handle whatever is thrown at them. Remember that I am not speaking of cheap low efficiency green back 30 watt speakers. If my FRFR 15" EVs sounded better I would have retired the stereo 4x12 but they just don't. BYW, the EV are power rated at 400 watts each. My Eminence loaded 4x12 is rated 600 watts RMS. 

Also the perhaps unread matter of splitting your signal into FRFR cross overs verses one solid main signal, that makes a difference. 

If the audience cannot hear the on stage cab then what is in it? Piping into the PA does not have the same tone really. Just saying something is not right with the theory when it comes to IR'ing a full range speaker and also using high and low cuts.

Why does one need frequency response outside the range of what is being produced and/or cut?? Defies logic. 

[gunpointmetal]

Until you add a really sparkly reverb/delay, or other "hi-fi" sounding effects, then the extra range makes things clearer, less muddled. But mostly its (for me anyways) the ability to have a single rig that can be as wide-ranging or as limited as I need it to be. If I want to bypass the cabs or skip the cuts and add some synth-y oscillators, or crazy reverbs, etc, its not gonna sound limited, might not even sound like a guitar. If all you're doing is recreating guitar tones from previous things, you probably have no need for the extra range, but if you want to be able to do whatever you want, within the same rig, FRFR affords that. 

[davidb7170]

I use "FRFR" and do the HF cuts to mainly reduce the harsher HF tones on the distorted patches.

 

The HF driver in a full range speaker tends to emphasize those frequencies that a normal guitar amp speaker naturally rolls off. But, I also use acoustic guitar patches that I've found don't sound very good through a traditional guitar amp speaker. I don't use a guitar amp model on those, and don't roll off the HF for them. The overtones are present and sound nice and open.

 

In a good 20 - 20kHz system, most folks don't actually hear the 20 kHz high end, but if you limit the audio range much below 15 kHz, a good cymbal sounds like a trash can lid. In the recording end of this world, you hear a lot of discussion of sample rates. 44.1, 48, 90 kHz etc. No human ear can hear those frequencies, but it really has to do with how many samples of the waveform it takes to accurately represent the waveform. The reason the sample rates are what they are is to capture at least 2 samples per cycle, so you see 44 kHz as the bare minimum for a good representation of around 22 kHz, 48 is "better", 96 is "even better", but how much better is the arguing point for a long time... "CD quality" is at 44.1 kHz sample rate, I believe, and of course the super high quality versions of that format are available with much higher sample rates.

 

Most decent mics roll off around 15 - 16 kHz, like the Sure SM-57 or 58 (pretty well respected mainstream mics). But they also emphasize the vocal midranges around 4 or 5 kHz by design. I found my "FRFR" speaker designed for PA use also has the midrange emphasis (for vocals), so for use with my guitar-centric Helix set up, I compensate by reducing that range with the global EQ. While nothing is perfect, it certainly sounds more as I want it to. I would love to get my hands on a good reference mic and frequency analyzer to flatten it out more scientifically (I'm an engineer and tend towards that), but for now, all I have to rely on is the sound that makes me smile.

 

Dave

[WickedFinger]

Have you ever listened to what a guitar sounds like, unprocessed through a amp->cab->microphone->console, or directly on-axis of a guitar speaker? Guitar speakers have a limited range, but it doesn't simply "cut off" at a certain frequency. The raw tone of something like a Mesa/Engl at really high gain settings sounds fizzy, harsh, and nasally without any processing if you're directly in-front of it. Guitar tones most traditional amp players are comfortable with come from distance/off-axis listening, so when they hear an unprocessed, direct-mic'ed signal, it might seem off (harsh/fizz/broken) and that's what a modeler gives you as a starting point. That full-chain, unprocessed signal. 

Though I agree that traditional cabs can sound "bigger" in a room, its only bigger in a limited frequency area. If you're not going to go direct, it won't make a lick of difference, but if you're sending an IR/cab sound out to the front, but basing it on how that tone sounds through your guitar cab, the sound guy is not gonna like what he hears, because in order to get the brightness and fullness out of cab running IR's/Cabs, you're going to have to boost your highs and cut your lows to get an "expected" guitar cab sound, and the sound that goes to the FOH will more than likely by small and buzzy.

There's not right or wrong way, it just depends on the usage. But to say that guitar cabs offer any real sonic advantage over a full-range cab is simply opinion based on experience. Plus, with a full-range cab, should you decide to search for sounds outside normal guitar amp-type tones (like your synth, wild oscillators, or crazy reverbs), the FRFR approach won't limit you to the smaller output range of a traditional cab. For me the biggest thing about going FRFR is flexibility. 

I can appreciate all that but merely offering usage with a modeler like the Helix, I get better sound using high end guitar speakers and not those found in most cabinets. For most they know nothing of custom loading a guitar cab with better speakers they deal in terms of the stockers, that is not the guitar speaker I am speaking.

Most IRs are done using those cabs with often low end speakers so if one wants to get those sounds that is what IRs do. FRFR presents the issue that they produce a greater spectrum of frequencies than the guitar is capable and when you get done using a speaker IR and various low or high cuts you are shaving the signal down to exactly the range of a quality high end guitar speaker, there is nothing for the added response of the full range to reproduce is my point.

I am not talking about using guitar amps and speaker cabs and how to record them but what to use with a modeler and why the need for full range speakers and their extended range...

[Meiannatee]

So much to read... Forgive me if some of the stuff below has already been said.

 

1) Guitar speakers and IRs don't just highpass/lowpass your sound, like gunpointmetal said. Even within its operational range, the frequency response is not flat. If it was, u could play a mic-ed cab's sound through another cab and it would sound the same tonally.

 

Going through 2 non-FRFR cabs (real or IR) is a bad idea.

 

2) Frequencies u don't notice are not necessarily absent. Transients at the onset of picking a string can contain frequencies well below the fundamental note. On the upper end is higher order harmonics, especially with distortion. Then there's the capturing process of the IR, which may introduce low-end rumble or mic hiss. That's why we still apply high&low-pass filters.

 

3) Loudness perception curves (e.g Fletcher-Munson) can be easily overcome. If u don't believe me, get a sound pressure meter, measure the SPL of a live gig from the audience. Go home, play similar music through regular studio monitors. Measure with the same sound pressure meter. U can easily get the same SPL.

 

Loudness perception curves only care about the sound level going into your ears, not the sound level coming out of the source. That said, since some live gigs are quite loud, it's not advisible to listen at the same levels at home for extended periods of time. Just check your patch at gig SPL.

 

4) Room and directionality makes a difference. U may have to tweak your patches according to the venue, which is what the global eq is for.

 

5) Pray that u get a decent FoH engineer

[roscoe5]

Thanks alot yall.. think I'll go with miking the cabs for now, im pretty happy with what I'm getting that way. Maybe I'll do a second version of everything through the p.a. Few things to take of before I'm able to justify some FRFR speakers. Your advise is kind of what I was expecting, but a few great nuggets of advise in there.. happy gigging!

Hey man, just wanted to make sure you caught my reply about trying the CD Inputs instead of the 1/4" line inputs, which have cab sims in them, on the Crate Power blocks. It made a huge difference with Helix for me.

[twystedriffs]

Hey Roscoe. I did see that thread, and will certainly try it out. I run two of em, so I need to go buy some new cables. When you run this way, is it still best to run no cabs? Or does it open up some cab and IR uses? Thanks again! Did my first gig this weekend with helix, preformed great, but i want the best i can get😎

[roscoe5]

I still run with no cabs into that Mesa 2x12 and mic it. Sounds great with V30 speakers.

 

So many threads in the past say the CPB manual has an "confirmed" error showing cab sims on the line ins. I will say they are somewhat subtle, not like a Helix cab or IR, but they are definitely there.

 

I didn't catch what kind of speakers are in your 2x12 cabs. If they are brighter speakers, then the CPB cab sims actually may be pleasing and part of the overall "cab" sound of your rig since they are in the signal chain after the Helix amp models. You are micing you cabs anyway, so it will work fine and be consistent to the PA either way.

 

It sounds like you have been playing the CPBs and those 2x12 cabs this way for years and may be tuned to that sound, and that will be fine.

 

Now if you want to try to put Helix Cabs and IRs through your rig, I would definitely go into the CD Inputs. You probably won't want to double dip cab sims.

[jrrjr68]

I've researched this quite a bit before I purchased the Helix because it was an issue with any of the units, minus the powered Kemper.. which that isn't all it's cut up to be either.
​There are a few options but your solution is subjective. It's what works best for you.
A: In ear monitors.
​B: FRFR Powered monitor
C: Power amp to use guitar cabs
​D: What I've been doing all along with HD500x.. straight into boogie with small gain adjustments to blend with amp. worked great for me however I am trying to get away from the gear hauling approach so for me... my solution will be in ears, but with a powered frfr monitor because not all clubs have monitors so unless the crowd is back far enough to hear FOH we'd just look pretty silly without stage volume.
​I didn't necessarily want a modeler to replace my Boogie live but for streamlining the recording process.
​I do like the fact I don't have to lug speakers around anymore if I choose not to though.
:)