General discussion of sound physics often unread or ignored in the FRFR argument

[ricstudioc]

If all you are going to do is play electric guitar through a modeler than guitar speakers are probably the way to go.  I chose FRFR because on occasion I play keys, I may play a backing track, I may play percussion, I may play a wedding with another singer, i may play a Variax acoustic or JTV acoustic model, I may play bass, I may play guitar synth... all through the modeler.  Versatility requires a jack of all trades--FRFR.

Ditto.  I don't just play guitar, depending on the gig I may also have keyboards, gtr synth, elec percussion - basing my system around FRFR allows me to use one amplification system for any/all of the above, saving a ton of weight and schlepping extra gear.  Pragmatism at it's finest - it's just one more kudo to L6 that Helix thru FRFR easily holds its own sonically against the actual amps in the room.

[spikey]

Its funny in a way. My Kemper is running thru an SLA amp into a Marshall 1960a cab, and it just sounds killer that way. My Helix OTOH sounds great thru my Firehawk 1500 amp thru the Monitor in jacks. Both sound great thru the X2442 Mixer and into my studio Mackie 824s.... So much for sticking to just one way to do things.   ;)

[mileskb]

 

I must have said this sort of thing a million times. EQ is relevant to environment and volume, that is a fact of physics. The problem these days is that many have no idea what the science means or consists. 

 

 

So I initially reacted to the overall tone of the OP, by being just as condescending and I'm sure that wasn't helpful to the overall conversation which...  is a good conversation to have I think.

 

I see a few things that have not really been addressed with the most important being "what are you using your modeler for?" but before I go any further... there is no good, bad, better, worse, right, wrong.  There just isn't. There is different, and what you prefer, and that's it.

 

So on to the show...

One thing that is overlooked in most of this conversation regarding sound is the FR part of FR.  No not THAT FR, the other one.  The Flat Response part.  The models are designed to be played via FLAT RESPONSE speakers.  Frankly I think that is more important than the whole Full Range aspect although that is a factor.  Someone mentioned solid-state amps with EV12's..  yep.. not full range... but guess what...  as I found out... NOT flat response.  Close, not quite, especially depending on the cabinet they are in.  As covered in another thread, I really like playing through these speakers, and they sounded great, but I like playing through them MORE now that I put an EQ in line (using the global eq or external) and making them FLAT.   

 

So this brings out the other topic that hasn't been hit on.  What is the modeler being used for?

If you are using it to record, well, the advantages and frequency response etc etc etc gained by not adding yet another microphone and cab to the mix is astonishing, but if you are playing live...  this is where it gets interesting.

 

Are you trying to reproduce a tone, or create a tone ?  Or, is "tone" even really your primary concern or are you looking for acceptable tone and more concerned about the other features of the modeler?  This is a HUGE factor in the purchase of the Helix.  As for me I've said it many times... Kemper, AxeFX, Helix, all sound great.  I want the one that's a floor unit, with a built in expression pedal, several routing options including USB, and is easy to program on the fly.... well you get the idea... and all this for as little money as possible.  

 

So back to tone..  there are so many options and opinions I decided to address one statement you made directly... and this discussion may help others..

 

You stated " I prefer my custom wired and loaded 4x12 for the shear real amp tone, punch, and low end, without mud and range of highs across the entire ability of the guitar."  What does this mean?

 

• What is "real amp tone" or I guess what is "non real amp tone"
• Low end...  what isn't providing low end
• without mud   what is or insn't providing mud
• range of highs across the entire ability of the guitar..  (I think you mean limted to guitar, but again.. I don't under stand completely enough the premise)

I guess the simple question is what are you comparing?  

 

After this is clarified it gets into the real tricky bit, and the reason many prefer modelers.  Using stage volume to the audience is rarely done anymore. When I started out, we put our amps behind us and our mic in front of us.  When we did a lead we stepped to the side not because it looked cool, but because that put the microphone pointing right at the stack pulling the lead into the PA just enough to sound like a lead.  That practice started to fade in the 80's when people found out you could put more than the vocals (and maybe some kick and snare) into smaller PA systems.  When they started making club sized PA systems that could handle everything, and even had sub-wooders... folks got a little mic crazy really.  Mic'd or hard-wired (mostly keys or electronic drums) most everything.

 

The problem with mic'ing a speaker cab is simply the weakest link.   That big sound you have on stage reduced to the 4 square inches of forward facing cone that a 20 year old mic that should have been tossed out years ago... can hear.    This was fine in the begining, but as guitar and bass amps started to really improve...  getting that great tone out to the audience was a chore.   It was either crank the stage volume which is really only appreciated by the front row, sorta...  or...  somehow... get the "full sound" off that cabinet out to the FOH board.

 

Enter modeling.    The ability to reproduce the sound of the whole cabinet experience as if it was properly mic'd (several mics, front and back as appropriate) and get it to the FOH board, or recording console.

 

The Helix gives you the opportunity to do what you want, whatever that is.  Wanna use a guitar cab on stage cause you like the way it feels...  perfect..   send the model of that cab to FOH, cause your only other choice is to stick a mic in front of one speaker, or crank up the amp.   

 

As for the wall 'o sound you see with a lot of acts...  trust me... ISO Boxes have been all the rage for at least 20 years. 

 

One additional note addressing the "what is it used for" question..   If your sound involves a certain amp and cab and some effects, I'm not sure that a modeler is really the most efficient choice.  It might be...  but I'm thinking an ISO Box might suit better, or at least supply your own microphone for micing.   

 

However, many cover bands need/want to sound like MANY different artists that have very unique tone.  This is where the modeler shines...  And frankly if you have a "sound" that you like to hear on stage, but want to have different sounding gear go out to the audience on every tune...  why not?   Helix has the power to do that to some extent... or split your signal between your stage rig and a Kemper to send to FOH if all you need is to send a modeled signal to the audience.

 

Anyway... my thoughts..  YMMV...  again... if anyone was offended by me earlier post... SUCK IT UP BUTTER UP !!!!   no seriously..  just took offence to one of my careers being denigrated for the exact reason I have been successful.

[robbieb61]

I'll say this much...when I showed up with my Bogner Ecstasy head and cab I had a great sound coming out of the cab. Soundmen LOVED it too. My sound out front in the P.A. was always great. 
Same with my old Boogie rack rig, my Peavey 5150 rig, my Marshall TSL rig with the classic marshall stack cabs, and even back in the 1980's when I was using a Seymour Duncan Convertible amp. 

Both myself and thousands of other guitarists got massive tone (as it's always been for decades going back to some of the greatest guitar tones ever all the way back to the 1950's)

But when I switched over to the HD500 and the Line 6 DT 50 amp...every soundman would groan at first sight. They were VERY anti-digital modeling...even though I pointed out that the DT amp was designed by Bogner himself and uses tubes.

After I played they would begrudgingly tell me that my sound was "pretty good" with that rig.

Then I got the Helix in 2015. And I played a big gig on Fremont Street here in Las Vegas. Big P.A., several signed bands, and a really good crew working sound and lights. 
We went on right before the headline act. 

I had the Helix for one week at that point.  And all I had time to do was build a patch using the Boogie Dual Rec for crunch and lead and the Fender twin model for a clean sound. 
Ran right out of the xlr to the house P.A. and had them feed back my signal to the same monitor I used for my vocals. 

It blew them away! They couldn't believe I was getting that kind of sound from a pedalboard. 

Does it sound as great as my Bogner head through it's 4x12 cab? No. 
Does it sound as great as my old Marshall doulbe stack? No. 

BUT...it sounds DAMN close! And it wowed that crowd and the crew and all the other guitarists in the other bands all wanted to know what I was using and look at it.

Since then of course, the Helix has been vastly improved and I've tweaked it out to hear exactly what I want. 
And I've played plenty of gigs with it here in Vegas and at the last gig I played I had a local band come up and tell me they had NEVER heard a guitar sound so good through a P.A. before. 

That really put a smile on my face. :)

So yeah...eq'ing an expensive (or cheap) FRFR cab is a great idea...though it's NOT necessary to achieve a great tone.

Keep in mind that being musical and using your ears as your guide is exactly what the greatest musicians in the world have always done. I don't think that modeling technology has changed that basic premise very much. 

I plug my Helix into a JBL Eon 15 inch monitor...it sounds great! 
I plug it into my DT 50 running through a Bogner 4x12 with greenbacks and it sounds AWESOME!
I walk into gigs here in Vegas and run straight to the P.A. and get it fed back to me through my vocal monitor and it still sounds GREAT!

No use of global eq and I try to even avoid the HPF and keep the LPF on the cab at around 100 hz

A lot of this depends on your guitar and your fingers. Then your ears to determine what is musically pleasing. 

If pink noising a particular cab gives you that...then that's great! 
If running it through a tube amp into a 4x12 gives you that...that's great! 

Everybody has their own unique "sound" they hear in their head. Whatever gets you there is what counts. :)

[Meiannatee]

Use IEMs? Then you get the same sound wherever, whenever

[WickedFinger]

The thing is that FRFR sounds great no complaints just the point that high end guitar speakers can kick major lollipop (a s s) on the tone as well.

There is no bad side with the Helix.

As far as a guitar cab not being heard or directional and giving way to a PA set up. Speakers by nature are directional. Standing off from anything is diminished sound and a PA can sound reverbish and distant in the same manner as guitar cabs. As always anyone should use what they want, like or have, which has been my argument about telling everyone they have to get FRFR monitor class speakers for the best sound.

You do not and those pipping a 4CM thing into amp amp using its power amp and speakers is not going to get a bad sound. As I recommend higher-end, more efficient, wattage capable guitar speakers do very well.

And personally I like them as a more full unified intact sound which makes an "amp" sound like an amp. I get touring downsizing simple rig config thing but just saying what is the ultimate tone? One can easily have that guitar speaker thing going and farm out to the PA for additional volume and reach while having the tone optimized. 

So it all works and I get the issue of the FRFR having a wide headroom of response but as I said when you get done IR curving and EQ cutting the signal down for use you are well within the range of high end guitar speakers plus the added issue you are not splitting the sound through crossovers.

Which is not to say a PA rig setup cannot be optimized to sound very good, it is after all the Helix. Just saying the logic of having to use full range is perhaps not so solid an argument as one might argue. Although getting others to see beyond just insulting me to the point of logic you are IR'ing and Eq cutting the response before it gets to the FRFR speaker(s) so what is the point of needing frequency spectrum out what you are producing? Comparisons always down guitar speakers as if all there is, is the low wattage low efficiency classic old stuff. True they all have a "roll off" and a roll off for a reason, that is all the guitar produces in range! And the more high end speakers have a wider response, sensitivity and headroom than cheapy ones. Big difference. 

[ricksteruk]

Ahh joy!  The good old FRFR argument :)  Lol.   

 

I totally agree that if you are playing just electric guitar you do not need the extra frequencies provided by the tweeter that's in your PA speaker at all.. a good guitar speaker covers the frequencies you need.   And as Wicked Finger says - a well chosen modern high powered guitar speaker will actually have very little coloration/distortion/compression to the sound - no more so than the LF drivers in your PA cab.

 

The difference (advantage/disadvantage) is the crossover.. a crossover might technically have some negative side effects to the sound - but a big plus is that by sending everything above about 1.5kHz to the tweeter you will get a much better spread of upper mids / highs from the PA speaker than a guitar speaker, which tends to be a bit beamy in the HF.  

However, you can get round this problem with guitar speakers by using a Mitchell Foam Donut that helps disperse the HF from the guitar speaker better, so that the off axis response is now almost exactly the same as the on axis.

 

Given the choice, when playing guitar I prefer to use Helix with my tube combo in 4cm, so naturally it makes sense to use the combo's power amp and speaker rather than carry an extra PA wedge.    I've tuned a Helix cab block so that it very closely approximates what my guitar cab sounds like - so my FOH sound I send on XLR is basically what my guitar cab would sound like if it was miked up.  To do this I had to spend a bit of time tuning the Cab block, with a PA speaker sat next to my combo and dialled the cab so it sounded the same as the amp.  Now it's set it works very well.

 

However, I have several PA speakers that I can use with my Helix too for situations when I don't want to carry a guitar amp, or instead want a single box that can do vocals, guitar and play background music.  

 

If I didn't already have and love my tube amps I'd probably just get a PA wedge speaker - as they are pretty cheap when compared to good tube guitar amps.

[HonestOpinion]

I think one of the things that can make attaining a great sound (a most subjective topic to begin with) so maddening is that there are so many ways to get there. You can have a PhD from MIT and still end up watching the feral wolf child who lived in the woods for the first fifteen years of his life arrive with his $400 POS mixer from 1986 and whip up a better sound in a half an hour than the "expert" who has spent hours using pink noise, sophisticated EQ, advanced spectral analysis, satellite imaging and whatnot. Having a good theoretical grasp on sound engineering can be really helpful and when combined with good ears can provide great results.... but some guys, just have a "knack" and good ears. They consistently get great sounds with the simplest of equipment and approaches and very little in the way of advanced knowledge. Other guys have the technical background but just use a simple Occam's Razor approach to sound production and it sounds great. Go figure?

 

Often when I hear great guitar or vocal sound coming from a PA I will go over to the soundman during a break or after the show and ask for specifics on how they set the effects or EQ. The answers vary wildly and are inconsistent to the point of making it incredibly difficult to find any "rule of thumb". Some engineers use subtractive EQ, some additive, some use sophisticated compression and throw everything including the kitchen sink in their signal chain, others are minimalists, yet they all manage to get a great sound.

 

With the above in mind, in the right hands there is a huge range of guitar speakers, amps, FRFR, and PA speakers that can be used to get a great sound with the Helix. Like some others have stated, I prefer using an FRFR or just PA speakers for monitoring the Helix as I think they get me the closest to what the audience will be hearing out front although I do comprehend that they possess a frequency range and response that the guitar does not require, is not fully exploiting, and even have the capacity to make a guitar sound terrible. They just represent to me the most faithful reference for what the audience will be subjected to. If my monitor speakers are harsh, ice-picky, boomy, or muddy, chances are the FOH speakers will be as well because I am using similar speakers to the FOH to craft and monitor the sound from my modeler. For some players the feel and thud from genuine guitar speakers or an amp is simply irreplaceable and I get that. If you go that route just be aware that you probably are not hearing what the FOH is producing unless you mic your guitar speaker and you may want to adjust things accordingly in the signal being fed to the FOH.

[roscoe5]

Good posts on the constency factor of FRFR. It seems there is some agreement in this from you guys.

 

To me without owning FRFR, it seemed maybe guitar cabs would have been more consistent.

 

Can anyone comment on FRFR feel vs tube amps/guitar cabs? Fryette goes into great length on this in a 4 video series with various modelers and his "FRFR" capable, neutral 50w x 2(100W bridged) LXII amp on Youtube. The 50w x 1 Fryette Power Station is also marketed as uber-transparent for modeler use.

 

He talks a lot about SS amp low impedence vs the high impedence of tube amps and the reactive interaction with guitar speaker cabs (impedence curves, damping, etc.). He never gets into the SS amps into tuned full range speakers as in an FRFR system though.

[cruisinon2]

Can anyone comment on FRFR feel vs tube amps/guitar cabs?

Oh no. Please, no...in the name of all that is decent any holy, please tell me you didn't just ask that question. ;)

 

Strap in boys!!!! Gonna be some encountering some turbulence ahead...

[klangmaler]

Oh no. Please, no...in the name of all that is decent any holy, please tell me you didn't just ask that question. ;)

[...]

 

LOL.

 

[PeterHamm]

 

...This is why I advocate using higher end more advanced high wattage guitar speakers on amp modelers over FRFR rigs....

 

 

If you're going direct, though...

 

Look, people. tweak your patches at gig volume through whatever is going to be used at the gig.

 

All problems solved...

[spikey]

Oh no. Please, no...in the name of all that is decent any holy, please tell me you didn't just ask that question. ;)

 

Strap in boys!!!! Gonna be some encountering some turbulence ahead...

 

Here is the right answer to that IMO and YMMV. If you are playing out and over half the people in the pub getting into what you are doing, does it really matter at that point if its FRFR or a amp/cab? 

[cruisinon2]

If you're going direct, though...

 

Look, people. tweak your patches at gig volume through whatever is going to be used at the gig.

 

All problems solved...

Agreed...unfortunately, no one gets to be "right" that way, which is really what this was all about from the beginning.

[Lachdanan0121]

I have FRFR. Although I am using some EVENT Studio monitors as my FRFR.  I don't even have a proper amp/cab anymore. Only Helix Rack, Eleven Rack, and the multitudes of plugins.  

 

I am a studio musician that composes a decent amount of different music so FRFR makes much more sense for me. 

If I was a touring musician I may look at it a little bit differently. However as of now, I don't have room for an amp, especially if I am to be getting any more guitars.  :D

[cruisinon2]

Here is the right answer to that IMO and YMMV. If you are playing out and over half the people in the pub getting into what you are doing, does it really matter at that point if its FRFR or a amp/cab?

No, it doesn't matter in the slightest...which was precisely was my point. It's a topic that's been beaten to death any number of times, and is about as productive as a "tastes great/less filling" Miller Lite debate. Both sides think they're "right", and neither one will ever convince the other of anything.

 

It's like arguing over which one of the Menendez brothers you like better...

[roscoe5]

Ha, sorry. Wasn't trying to start trouble. Reading through some more posts, my question even seems a bit off-topic now.

 

Carry on. I'll go back to silently watching you all-in FRFR guys with your greener grass rigs from the other side of the tube fence :)

[spikey]

eh, no troubles  :P  . Im Mr. Obvious on some occasions. Mr. asshat on others. But 1st and foremost, i'm a guitar player.

 

Oh yea, I don't like either Menendez brothers  ;)  :lol:

[mileskb]

Can anyone comment on FRFR feel vs tube amps/guitar cabs?

 

There's actually something to this...   maybe not so much FRFR vs Tube amps...  but something I noticed with using the Helix with a solid-state and at least flat response speaker...    

 

Because of the way Helix does component modeling.. it's pretty hard to tell tube from solid state.   This may even bleed into the whole FRFR thing...  

 

The main difference, at least the difference that causes the most audible difference between tube and solid-state is the fact that a tubes output characteristics change with volume and frequency.  Heat and humidity are factors, but all things equal a tube is Dynamic whereas solid-state generally isn't.

 

Now enter the Helix...  that is designed to emulate the component inconsistencies the way tubes do (on tube amp models anyway) and does it VERY well/surprisingly well.  Putting that signal into a solid-state amp where the nuances will just be amplified seems to make more sense than putting them into a tube amp where they are going to be affected.  Of course... as I also found out..  makes sense does not necessarily equal sound better....  just different.  

 

It sure is nice to be able to record a "tube amp" without actually having to even own that amp... and likely no one will ever know the difference unless you tell them.

[cruisinon2]

It sure is nice to be able to record a "tube amp" without actually having to even own that amp... and likely no one will ever know the difference unless you tell them.

You're lucky if the average listener can distinguish guitar from bass, never mind tube vs. modeler, or Strat vs. Tele. And with a few rare exceptions, most guitar players (no matter how wonderful they think their ears are) won't get it right more often than chance allows either...

[roscoe5]

Thanks for dignifying my question with a good response mileskb!

[WickedFinger]

You're lucky if the average listener can distinguish guitar from bass, never mind tube vs. modeler, or Strat vs. Tele. And with a few rare exceptions, most guitar players (no matter how wonderful they think their ears are) won't get it right more often than chance allows either...

i have to somewhat disagree as to the musical hearing ignorance of the general public. Some have stated they do not care about tone, while it is certainly true they have no idea what different guitar or amps sound like or what they are or how the sound is created, but, they really do know what sounds like crap and you are kidding yourself if you think they do not get what sounds good and what sounds bad. Heads turn when a cool tone comes up or something that sounds really pleasing verses some god awful affront to the ears. They are of course exceptions as I do not know how kids like mine have a clue what might sound good as their paradigm of music is really not music but in general people get what sounds good what what sounds crappy. 

[cruisinon2]

i have to somewhat disagree as to the musical hearing ignorance of the general public. Some have stated they do not care about tone, while it is certainly true they have no idea what different guitar or amps sound like or what they are or how the sound is created, but, they really do know what sounds like crap and you are kidding yourself if you think they do not get what sounds good and what sounds bad. Heads turn when a cool tone comes up or something that sounds really pleasing verses some god awful affront to the ears. They are of course exceptions as I do not know how kids like mine have a clue what might sound good as their paradigm of music is really not music but in general people get what sounds good what what sounds crappy.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've witnessed the same crowded room cheer for absolute garbage, and ignore polished talent an hour later.

 

The "general public" is as dumb as a bag of hammers...want proof? Look at the people we elect to run this country, but I digress. Most people you meet couldn't find their own a$$ with both hands and a hunting dog. They like what they're told to like...which is divided fairly evenly between push-button DJ's, and lip syncing "artists", gyrating like they've just run out of seizure medication.

[lawrence_Arps]

a couple of comments after reading some of the posts above...

 

Firstly - the soundperson should not be the arbiter of good tone.  It is the artists job to produce the tone that they wish the audience to hear. Sure, if you are on a tour with a stable sound person (if thats not an oxymoron) then achieving your sound might have a collaborative element to it, but in the real world of most musicians the soundperson's job is simply to run the system and try not to screw up the artists sound too much.

 

FWIW I have done a lot of sound and yes, on occasion,  I have deliberately altered the sound the audience hears due to a professional opinion that it would improve the gig.  The statement above is a generalisation.

 

Another point that seems to be missed...maybe its taken for granted... is that the range of tones considered desirable by artists varies immensely.  From Dimebag to Dimeola, from Vai to StVincent, from Santana to Satch, from Prince to Queen to King, there is no such thing as "correct" tone.  If the Artist chooses to use it ,it is what it is...an artistic statement.

 

Finally - to return to the topic of the thread - Of all the revered tones that came out of the "golden age" of guitar almost none have been sculpted in the sort of detail under discussion.  Artists like Clapton, Beck, Page, Santana, Moore, Hendrix etc might adjust the treble and bass knobs a bit and then just get on with it.  The only two examples I can think of who use extensive EQ as part of their rigs are Scholz and Billy Gibbons.  Even more to the point are the thousands of guitarists who show up to gigs where the backline is hired in ...sometimes its a good one sometimes not.

 

While I dont quite agree that the public are "as dumb as a bag of hammers" the point is well made. Of a club crowd of a couple of hundred (non-musician) punters maybe one  or two could hear the difference between a Chinese solid state amp with a MetalZone pedal and a Mesa Boogie (assuming the same person dialed in the tone)..and maybe not.  There are plenty of stories of big rock acts with walls of marshalls on stage and a Mesa combo miked up in a roadcase under the stage.

 

We are all such cork sniffing, superstitious, reactionary, old fashioned, opinionated nitwits at times!

[mileskb]

I think in general what this discussion has brought to light is the constant tension that occurs when one mixes art and science.  It's a good tension I think.  It's much like a drummer who strives for "perfect time" but in reality, if it was ever achieved it would sound like crap.  Even dance, house, trance whatever you want to call it...  the mood is set by the percussion being ahead or behind the beat and the overall "Rhythm" fluctuates ever so slightly so much like perfect tone is just the "right" tone, perfect time is just the "right" time.  Scientifically, it may be neither good nor right... but it sounds fantastic.

 

Another aspect that is in the background in this conversation is that in last 10 years, everything about music production has been set on it's ear (excuse the pun) from DAW's to Modeling, to Impulse Response, to the quality of PA systems, and IEM, to the explosion of YouTube and smartphones.

 

As far as the typical audience goes... they know what they like... that's about all they know.  

[zooey]

Most important thing to the audience is YOUR energy, which is definitely affected by what you hear and how you relate to that, and a million other things.

[klangmaler]

Yep, but don't forget your hands and that dog :D

[HonestOpinion]

Most important thing to the audience is YOUR energy, which is definitely affected by what you hear and how you relate to that, and a million other things.

So many good points made in this thread and the energy and aspect you project from the stage probably is the most important factor although if your music is great people can sometimes (rarely?) get past a bad stage act. Many musicians have also found that just because they felt they had a bad night does not mean the audience noticed or felt the same way, so sometimes our perception of whether or not we delivered a "great" performance can be skewed. Many people are their own worst critics. It is true your average bar crowd is not exactly the most discerning audience although in my area the local musicians tend to support one another by showing up to each other's gigs so there are usually at least some folks in the audience who appreciate good tone.

 

I think one of the most important reasons I strive for good tone, other than the audience's benefit, is that it inspires me, makes me feel better about my playing and actually helps me to play better; whether there are many or only a few people in the audience who notice or appreciate the effort that went in to it. I try to balance preset twiddling with plenty of practice as not to become a "producer" instead of a player.

[WickedFinger]

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've witnessed the same crowded room cheer for absolute garbage, and ignore polished talent an hour later.

 

The "general public" is as dumb as a bag of hammers...want proof? Look at the people we elect to run this country, but I digress. Most people you meet couldn't find their own a$$ with both hands and a hunting dog. They like what they're told to like...which is divided fairly evenly between push-button DJ's, and lip syncing "artists", gyrating like they've just run out of seizure medication.

Everyone's an idiot, that is just a species trait. Nice to know your experience sets the paradigm for all audiences and experiences as well as erasing counter intuitive issues. Even my basic tone deaf wife having little to no musical skill can recognize what sounds good and what sucks. You cannot judge the world on the acts and behaviors of the worse morons. Let's face it genius is a rare trait not a majority, how many general populace to one Einstein? I work on my tone as it pleases me to do so, and even if every monkey on the planet was deaf it would not relegate me to a sonic world of crap. I have experienced many times how audience listeners picked up on nice tones and sounds, something pleasing to the ear is like shiny objects to apes. 

[WickedFinger]

Its funny in a way. My Kemper is running thru an SLA amp into a Marshall 1960a cab, and it just sounds killer that way. My Helix OTOH sounds great thru my Firehawk 1500 amp thru the Monitor in jacks. Both sound great thru the X2442 Mixer and into my studio Mackie 824s.... So much for sticking to just one way to do things.   ;)

I have both as well and there is no bad. Just saying everyone does not need to run out and buy FRFR rigs if you have decent high end guitar speakers, the better they are the better the Helix amp tones sound. I never recommend cheese speakers, that is what IRs are for to mimic all sorts of speakers and cabs for just tone modeling. I have never been happy with stock loaded cabs myself. 

Full range is great for keyboard or guitar synth ranges, in fact it is a necessity as they are producing sonic spectrum beyond the high and low ranges of guitar. Since the guitar cannot produce tones beyond the typical sonic range of a quality guitar speaker then case in point the FRFR rig has a whole lot of sonic headroom that will just not be used. I am not sure the logic argument of having that extended range headroom makes any difference in the sound when it is not made use of. By the time you EQ, high/low cut and speaker IR your tone it is right in the niche and range of good guitar speakers. Personally I prefer the more unified sound and punch of a nice cab. When I was running my GR-55 synth rig, FRFR was a must as the guitar speakers could not reproduce the sonic range as well. 

As always everyone has to make the best of what they have or make good decisions in buying gear. My FRFR EV rig was about a $1000, I took a quality made 4x12 I had and loaded it with Eminence 120watters, and rewired it for less than half that. Kicks major "insert your censored word here". 

[WickedFinger]

LOL.

 

 

Faith in what, that reality is a matter of belief? If anyone wants to continue on herding the dinosaur roundup of tube amps and old school, have at it. The rest of us will be quite well adapted after the half century+ technology gives way to progression.

Remember when personal portable phones were as big as a back pack with a whip antenna and a single computer filled a room? The Helix and other high end modeler units point the way and the path to the future. We are even running out of classic woods to build guitars. Innovation and technology is the only future we have on all fronts.

[HonestOpinion]

I have both as well and there is no bad. Just saying everyone does not need to run out and buy FRFR rigs if you have decent high end guitar speakers, the better they are the better the Helix amp tones sound. I never recommend cheese speakers, that is what IRs are for to mimic all sorts of speakers and cabs for just tone modeling. I have never been happy with stock loaded cabs myself.

Full range is great for keyboard or guitar synth ranges, in fact it is a necessity as they are producing sonic spectrum beyond the high and low ranges of guitar. Since the guitar cannot produce tones beyond the typical sonic range of a quality guitar speaker then case in point the FRFR rig has a whole lot of sonic headroom that will just not be used. I am not sure the logic argument of having that extended range headroom makes any difference in the sound when it is not made use of. By the time you EQ, high/low cut and speaker IR your tone it is right in the niche and range of good guitar speakers. Personally I prefer the more unified sound and punch of a nice cab. When I was running my GR-55 synth rig, FRFR was a must as the guitar speakers could not reproduce the sonic range as well.

As always everyone has to make the best of what they have or make good decisions in buying gear. My FRFR EV rig was about a $1000, I took a quality made 4x12 I had and loaded it with Eminence 120watters, and rewired it for less than half that. Kicks major "insert your censored word here".

I think guitar amps/cabs, FRFR, or PA speakers are all valid choices and any of them set up properly can deliver great sounds. I agree that many presets may not take advantage of the full range of an FRFR or PA speaker especially if and when low/high cuts are engaged; And as you stated, I also think that perfectly great sounds can be had through guitar amps and cabs. There are three compelling reasons however that some (including me) prefer FRFR cabinets and PA speakers/monitors:

• The frequency range and generally more balanced frequency response of the FRFR or PA speaker add less coloration to the amp/cab/mic being modeled and therefor may provide a wider palette of tones than for instance a Mesa cab that will always add a dash of Mesa flavor to any preset (of course some players prefer that).
• FRFR and PA speakers are a closer approximation of what the FOH speakers will sound like making it easier in many respects to model presets that will sound as good to the audience as they do to you on stage as well as being a fairly exact replication of what you are hearing on stage. Of course, proper miking of your guitar amp/cab on stage can help get the sound you experience on stage out to the FOH but that approach again always leaves your preset colored by the stage mic you choose.
• If you are using the existing PA/vocal monitors for your guitar monitor you have even less equipment to haul to the gig.

[Lachdanan0121]

 

I think guitar amps/cabs, FRFR, or PA speakers are all valid choices and any of them set up properly can deliver great sounds. I agree that many presets may not take advantage of the full range of an FRFR or PA speaker especially if and when low/high cuts are engaged; And as you stated, I also think that perfectly great sounds can be had through guitar amps and cabs. There are three compelling reasons however that some (including me) prefer FRFR cabinets and PA speakers/monitors:

• The frequency range and generally more balanced frequency response of the FRFR or PA speaker add less coloration to the amp/cab/mic being modeled and therefor may provide a wider palette of tones than for instance a Mesa cab that will always add a dash of Mesa flavor to any preset (of course some players prefer that).
• FRFR and PA speakers are a closer approximation of what the FOH speakers will sound like making it easier in many respects to model presets that will sound as good to the audience as they do to you on stage as well as being a fairly exact replication of what you are hearing on stage. Of course, proper miking of your guitar amp/cab on stage can help get the sound you experience on stage out to the FOH but that approach again always leaves your preset colored by the stage mic you choose.
• If you are using the existing PA/vocal monitors for your guitar monitor you have even less equipment to haul to the gig.

 

4.  Some of us are studio musicians, that use The Helix as an interface, and ReAmping tool.  In the context of a full mix, a guitar speaker will never be as good as a FRFR setup. (meaning if the entire mix is coming through the speakers) 

[HonestOpinion]

4.  Some of us are studio musicians, that use The Helix as an interface, and ReAmping tool.  In the context of a full mix, a guitar speaker will never be as good as a FRFR setup. (meaning if the entire mix is coming through the speakers) 

 

Yet another good reason!

[WickedFinger]

One might ask why? Are you producing frequency spectrum outside the guitar range? A "full mix"? Are you suggesting the issue is running a full band mix through guitar cabs? No one has suggested nor would suggest that. No one is saying that you cannot run the signal into PA FRFR speakers for bigger halls or rooms just that if you have high end guitar speakers the Helix sounds very good through them as well as it sounds good in FRFR. I use both and the sound is amazingly rich and full. The guitar cab sounds more like a real amp which is why I use mine. Everyone should do what they like or prefer but suggesting FRFR sort of moot points all those trying 4CM things with their amp and speakers. If you have low end guitar speakers that color everything even a 4CM thing is not going to get anywhere near the best sound. But with the array or great high efficiency higher wattage guitar speakers these days the sound coming out of the Helix is very powerful and sounds as good or better than any amp I have ever used. I love my 15" FRFR EV rig but still dig the power and punch of that modified 4x12.