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Initial thoughts and questions after finally choosing Helix over Fractal Ax8


Ender699
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Hi,

 

just got my Helix after much pondering about getting a Fractal AX8. Guess what clinched it for me was the ease of use and connectivity, and the routing possibilities.

 

First impressions are of great sound compared to the VoiceLive 3, definitely a step (or 2) up.. Ease of use was fantastic, most things didn't require the manual and I was editing straight away. Build is fine (some knobs could be tighter), looks solid. Great screen, avoids having to use a computer all the time. Routing possibilities are endless, just what I wanted

 

However, I quickly noticed something baffling: there is no input level metering and no clip indicator unless I am mistaken. That is something I really don't understand on a device that costs and positions itself so highly. Also, the manual contains no technical information about the input and outputs levels (dBu, dbFs) like the manual of the Tascam DP32 does. Basically flying a bit blind here, and that's a shame for such a good product. As an example, matching 2 acoustic guitars with active pickups or an electric and an active acoustic on the main and aux inputs was a fiddly affair, and I still don't know if it's actually correctly done. Any suggestions on how to achieve this easily and get a correct SNR are appreciated. It would be much better if the Volume/Gain block would have a level indicator screen of the current input, and I upvoted this in the IdeaScale lists in this forum. VoiceLive has an automatic gain wizard for setting up inputs, that could be another avenue ...

 

Generally, I feel the Helix has great potential for acoustic guitars (it's already better than my VoiceLive 3), but it really needs some extra blocks to achieve greatness:

- some acoustic preamps or amps

- some acoustic cabinets

- more comprehensive EQ, with better display

- support for longer IR's (I believe the AX8 goes to 8192 samples on the same DSP chips)

 

Some effects could stand a little improvement too, I had some strange dropouts on delays/reverbs (maybe an overactive noise gate, still investigating)

 

If some of these features come through and the support and customer feedback is good (Fractal has a great reputation for that, Line6 less so) then I will definitely keep the Helix, it really does so many things very well  ...

 

The metering is absolutely essential though (or some easy solution as too how to solve input level problems),and I would really have to consider sending my unit back without it ....

 

Gear:

 - PRS 513 electric

 - Avian Skylark fan fret acoustic

 - Eastman 412 acoustic

 - Tascam DP32 multitracker/mixer

 - Mackie MR5 monitors

 - Rivera R30-12

 - TC electronic VoiceLive 3

 - Behringer DEQ2496 for room compensation and output compression.

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Input metering isn't that critical for Helix because the guitar input can accommodate a very wide signal range. For gain staging blocks, a good rule of thumb is to simply make sure any block is pretty close to the same level on or bypassed. That will ensure the block is close to unity gain and each block is seeing an input that's designed for its sweet spot.

 

If you need a "boost" block to raise the volume, then compensate by lowering the gain on some downstream block and make up the difference at the amplifier, setting the normal level with the boost off. So "boost" is actually achieved with a cut followed by raising the input level of the amplifier. This is similar in concept to subtractive EQ. I prevents gain buildup that can cause clipping.

 

For metering, you can easily use any meter on your computer, DAWs have great meters that could be used to set level across patches, or to verify unity gain. 

 

Once you setup your patches properly, there's little need for metering on Helix. So one could argue that its better to do the metering and gain staging with the editor and your DAW, and save the DSP cycles on Helix for processing audio. 

 

That said, putting meters at the input and output of the Helix app would make a lot of sense, are easily implemented, and would have no impact on Helix itself. These could be used as a convenience for setting up the patches instead of having to use a separate app like a DAW.

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there is no input level metering and no clip indicator unless I am mistaken. That is something I really don't understand on a device that costs and positions itself so highly.

 

 

Welcome and I think once you play with Helix for a bit more you wont worry about meters. Im thinking (guessing really on this part) that the input levels are software and hardware monitored for clip automatically. And once the signal has gone thru A to D conversion after being set all is well. Same for the D to A conversion back to audio. No read need for meter R&D and expense when done that way. And, I "know" that I can also use the Levels on my Mixer, my DAWs signal input meters and master fader, and other equipment that Helix is running into to verify a 0 db reference (including my ears in general), so the non-metering on Helix is really not so "absolutely essential" (even if we would prefer to see the levels in Helix). And besides all that, for me "tone" is much more important than extra meters if I had to choose between the two.  Case in point, how many Fender Twins have we seen with a signal meter?  :)

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Hi,

 

thanks for the input guys.

 

amsdenj: I had come to a similar conclusion, setting block levels so that the sound is the same with it on and off. Output level metering was achieved on my Tascam mixing table. Assuming the 'line level' definition is the same as on the Tascam (i.e. professional audio a +4dbU = 1.23 V RMS), I should meter on the mixer just under the red with volume at 100% on the Helix. At this point I know the output stages of the Helix are OK. If the intermediate blocks are all Ok (volume with = without) then that just leaves the input itself (before the ADC and the first digital block).

 

Listening with a very good headphone to my acoustic guitar with a B-band pickup system I was quite tricky to get a proper sound from the Helix, being either clipped or noisy. The sound from the guitar and aux was quite different which is a surprise to me for an active pickup (admittingly the B-band still gives a quite low-level signal, even below a hot humbucker. Impedance should be much less critical though ...)

 

spikey: you are right for an electric guitar amp regarding metering: not required. But Helix aspires to be so much more and should allow easy connection of about anything ...

 

Anyway, I will continue to investigate, play with the guitar impedance and also try the effect returns ...

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Try the aux in for your acoustic and other active pickups

See if that helps

"The Aux In is 10k Ohm (yes, the Helix floor's manual has a typo), which is closer to line level than instrument level. The four FX returns can be set to instrument or line level". DI

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While there is no meter on a Fender Twin the Helix is so much more than just the Amp alone.

It is essentially a mic'd in the studio listening in the control room into your PA or interface route.

 

If there is a danger of clipping en route then meters would seem a good idea or at leas a clip meter.

 

But it might be the case that the Helix internally has a floating point that wont clip regardless (like 32bit float)

and simply clippers it at the DAC stage. Totally guessing.

 

The question is? Can you get the Helix to clip?

If so, there should be at least a clip meter.

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Hi,

 

I posted somewhere else in the forums about the poor sound quality I got (spec. the reverbs) with my acoustic, but as it turns out the story behind it is one of metering and clipping.

 

I found out that setting the output volume above 70% created most of my quality problems. That is odd because with volume at 90% when metering the Helix XLR outputs with a mixer and an RTA at the output I left a healthy -6 db margin with respect to line level (at +4 dBu) by setting the Helix gain appropriately. However, this gave noise, sizzling, and clear clipping artefacts. Can someone explain this when the output is NOT EVEN REACHING line level?

 

Instead I now boosted my input with a volume/gain block, keep all my effects at 0dB and keep the output volume at 70% or lower. The quality is much, much better. There is no graduation on the Volume control, I suppose it is the professional "70% = 0 dB"?

 

METERING is really missing on the Helix, or at least a clip indicator for input/output. Would have avoided much grief.

 

Note that when using the AUX input with an acoustic with active pickups this requires some major gain in a Volume block (+10dB), AND a preamp with level set at 10! This is not really normal ...

 

As Jamin suggested it it much better to use a effect return at instrument level, the impedance and sensitivity of the AUX is too low (output impedance of my acoustic is rated at 3.5 KOhm), ideally it should be switchable like the returns / guitar in.

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I found out that setting the output volume above 70% created most of my quality problems. That is odd because with volume at 90% when metering the Helix XLR outputs with a mixer and an RTA at the output I left a healthy -6 db margin with respect to line level (at +4 dBu) by setting the Helix gain appropriately. However, this gave noise, sizzling, and clear clipping artefacts. Can someone explain this when the output is NOT EVEN REACHING line level?

 

 

My simple answer is, if its not clipping coming in then something is broken and this shouldn't happen. Anyone else care to disagree or expand on this finding?

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My simple answer is, if its not clipping coming in then something is broken and this shouldn't happen. Anyone else care to disagree or expand on this finding?

 

Possibly... If the input buffer and DAC aren't clipping, and there is sufficient headroom in the digital domain with 30 or 64 bit floating point (which S-Gear uses), then you might not see clipping in blocks. But you might still get clipping at the output DAC, and some of the blocks might not be operating at their sweet spot and may not sound right. 

 

I think its a good idea to be a long way away from clipping in the digital domain. There's no good digital clipping. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi guys,

 

thanks for all your help, but in the end I could not live with the Helix and brought it back. I now commited treason and got myself an AX8 instead :-)

 

There is no way that unit even comes close to the editing ease of the Helix, you definitely need a computer to edit presets and such. Having said that, the easily accesible master AMP settings on the AX8 make up for some of that, as once a good sound is achieved those are usually the settings that are further modified (e.g. drive, master volume and level).

 

I find the amps and cabs to be slightly better, more real and more reactive with my PRS electric (thats really subjective though).

 

For the acoustic, the better quality of some of the effects (reverbs, delays, tremolo) really makes a difference. Also, being able to use some longer impulse responses (>  2048 samples) should be interesting when using instrument body IR's.

 

I have not run into clipping problems as I can easily check the input levels (on the tuner), and I can monitor any clipping on the fx and output buses. Happy so far ...

 

 

Keep on picking!

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Hi guys,

 

thanks for all your help, but in the end I could not live with the Helix and brought it back. I now commited treason and got myself an AX8 instead :-)

 

There is no way that unit even comes close to the editing ease of the Helix, you definitely need a computer to edit presets and such. Having said that, the easily accesible master AMP settings on the AX8 make up for some of that, as once a good sound is achieved those are usually the settings that are further modified (e.g. drive, master volume and level).

 

I find the amps and cabs to be slightly better, more real and more reactive with my PRS electric (thats really subjective though).

 

For the acoustic, the better quality of some of the effects (reverbs, delays, tremolo) really makes a difference. Also, being able to use some longer impulse responses (>  2048 samples) should be interesting when using instrument body IR's.

 

I have not run into clipping problems as I can easily check the input levels (on the tuner), and I can monitor any clipping on the fx and output buses. Happy so far ...

 

 

Keep on picking!

 

Enjoy. I'd probably have the Fractal too if it had scribble strips. That's easily my #1 feature since I control other gear with my footpedal. I'm done forever with tape or muscle memory.

 

The lack of input and output meters is baffling. I plug a Les Paul, a Schecter Baritone, a Music Man bass, a Moog Minitaur, and Nord Lead 2x into the Helix simultaneously and they're all wildly different in levels. It would be really nice to have a little help here.

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FWIW, I had both the Helix and AX8 (also the AXE-FX)... and compared them extensively side-by-side.

I don't want to slam Fractal (admire their products and commitment), but IME they're doing something in their Cab block that colors the sound of the IR.

 

Load the exact same acoustic guitar IR into both the Helix and AX8 (no other DSP blocks)... and the sound is significantly different.

 

In the Helix, with no tweaking, the sound is very natural and playing piezo equipped guitars sounds closer to an acoustic.

In the AX8 (same IR), even after much tweaking, the acoustic guitar IR was far less effective in making piezo equipped guitar sound more like an acoustic.

It's like there was some comb-filtering happening in the Cab block of the AX8.  

That shouldn't be the case... but I could never get the same type of natural acoustic sound from the AX8.

 

I had some good crunch/gain sounds dialed up on the AX8.

Still wasn't crazy about the Cab block (many of the stock Cab IRs lean toward dark/tubby).

 

To keep things in perspective, if Helix didn't exist... I'd happily use the AX8.

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