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zooey

Somebody want to clone this tone?

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Love my Helix, not trying to be provocative, and I'm not in front of my Helix now, but dang, not sure I've heard it do this:

 

It's an Axe-FX II workshop by Scott Peterson. It should queue up at about 29:00, where he's just starting to dial in a JCM800 tone, loads a custom IR, works on it; keep listening for a bit.

 

[EDIT] Looks like the forum software strips the time out of the URL that's actually in this post. Start it and click to open it in YouTube, or right-click to copy the video URL and paste into your address bar, then add '&t=29m0s' (w/o the quotes) on the end of the URL, should do the right thing.

 

To me, that has tons of non-cheesy, grown-up aggression, character, and punch to it, zero bedroom-warrior vibe. I actually prefer it before he adds the screamer, and maybe even with the factory IR, but overall, pretty cool, I thought.

 

Anybody feel like their Helix does that? Want to point me towards how, maybe some audio? It's not where I want to be in general, but it'd be a great thing to have in your kit.

 

(He does have a Suhr something up there too, not sure what his full chain is, but I get the clear impression he bulk of that tone is the Axe. Nice guitar too, but nothing super exotic.)

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Sure can. Choose the same amp and start with similar settings and adjust to how you like. Within the cabs make sure your low cut is in the 80 range and your high is 5-8 range. You are there. What do you feel is lacking or different in the Helix?

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Well I won't criticize it, as it doesn't sound "bad", however it's nothing to write home about either...I'm not hearing anything in that video that you can't do with Helix, or the 500X for that matter.

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Hmmm, interesting that you folks had such a different reaction than I did. I heard a raw but polished thing that struck me as kind of unique and interesting, but maybe I'm just crazy.

 

Guess I'll try the two Helix JCMs using similar settings when I have a chance this weekend, see what I think.

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Hmmm, interesting that you folks had such a different reaction than I did. I heard a raw but polished thing that struck me as kind of unique and interesting, but maybe I'm just crazy.

 

Guess I'll try the two Helix JCMs using similar settings when I have a chance this weekend, see what I think.

I am with you on this. I can not get even close to the tone of axe without external ir.

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I never said it wasn't good. The question was can you get the tone in the Helix. Setting the amp similar and using a 12_65 speaker IR which they did as well I have the following spending approx. 15 minutes.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2t3sff6psek6jst/AADpxUsP88z0_BsbCQELOSb2a?dl=0

 

Try it with the speaker volume up because they are recording in the room via the PA. I was using 36th ann pickups so keep that in mind. Several of those items will make slight differences but the base is valid. I was setting it up running the video and helix through a 12" EVX112P, Yamaha HS8 and Tannoy Reveal 8. With the volume up I wouldn't de disappointed one bit. I tried my Kemper Marshall Golub Crunch profile at similar volumes. Throw in your two cents or more and let me know what changes you would make from your perspective.

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JCM800 is one of my favorite amps. I'd also love to see if someone can replicate this sound as with the AXE. I love my Helix but I can't quite get there....

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No-brainer. Easily achieved in the Helix as well. I have both. Well, that is, I got rid of the axe-fx, so I "had" both.
One thing though....you might actually like the ambience coming from the microphones picking up the actual room, where they held the conference.
That of course adds some life to the tone:)

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No offense to anyone who posted patches or ideas, but nothing here so far is very close IMO.

 

I spent a while on this myself last night, and got some tones I like a lot starting from his recipe -- great amp! -- but nothing with the bark and authority of that video.

 

For those with ideas on how easy it is, post a clip and/or an actual patch, and we'll talk :)

 

(Just so people don't file me under Axe-fans/Helix-dissers, I love my Helix, and I've never played a Fractal anything. Helix has a bunch of obvious strengths. and tons of sounds that feel great to me. None of that's in question. I'm just trying to get somewhere near the particular texture he demonstrates, if possible.)

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Hey Zooey, wanna try getting there with Helix amps into Amplitube cabs? You can turn off the amps in AT4. If you get something close, you could send me the AT4 preset with the cabs set up how you want and I will IR it for you.

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Thanks for your offer, but I haven't tried this, or anything else, in Amplitube since I got my Helix :)

 

My playing time in kind of limited, and I just fall down the Helix rabbit hole every time. But I'll keep that possibility in mind if I do try it and come up with anything useful. I use the IR you made of an Amplitube dual cab rig of mine all the time, it's great.

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Have you by any chance tried to cop that tone in AT yourself?

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This is kind of a timely discussion for me, as I've been playing a lot recently with my Classic '57 equipped Les Paul into the JCM800. I've been getting some tones that I've been really pleased with, but what I haven't been able to capture that the tone in the video DID capture is that top end clarity and punch; what Scott appropriately refers to as the KERRANG. I shamelessly stole his settings and captured them as a snapshot in the patch I've been working on. It's quite tasty. I played some classic riffage into the looper and recorded it with the following cab configurations:

Stock cabs (4x12 1960 T75 with 1x12 US Deluxe in parallel)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w6tnxylqfyfklx3/JCM800%20Stock%20Cabs.mp3?dl=0

Ownhammer IR (4x12 1960B loaded with G12-50GL "Lynchbacks")
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jklqj9egieotz39/JCM800%20OH%20.mp3?dl=0

12H65 IR linked above by bshaw92
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qg3llxs4dxjg3vh/JCM800%2012H65.mp3?dl=0

There are things I really like about each, but for my ears I think the stock cabs sound best overall. I know, sacrilege....

Should anybody want it for any reason, here is the patch:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v727fqijtzw867q/GTLP%20JCM800.hlx?dl=0

If anyone has the secret to the KERRANG, pass it along!

7f8aee6eb6c5f86d79cf77c776de59f0aba6b31b

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It's hard to compare the direct recorded tones posted here to the video in the OP. A cranked speaker is hard to replicate, and no doubt the PA speakers in the video were being pushed. I know my Helix sounds better loud at rehearsal and live compared to at home through my studio monitors.

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Don't think the PA getting pushed has anything to do with it. You would have heard it on his voice, and PAs don't distort nicely, would have sounded like lollipop.

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Not trying to be difficult, but I pretty much always play guitar louder than I listen to YouTube, so that theory doesn't make much sense.

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No, honestly I haven't tried to match it but it could be fun. I'll give it a go.

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Not trying to be difficult, but I pretty much always play guitar louder than I listen to YouTube, so that theory doesn't make much sense.

No difficulty detected :)

 

I am not talking about how loud you listen to youtube. I am talking about how loud the sound in the room is in the video with a reference mic picking up the sound. Again, I am just hypothesising to possible reasons why people may have a hard time replicating that tone at home if they are going directly into a DAW and listening through reference monitors. People may have better luck trying to copy that sound through an FRFR at volume.

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Have his original Helix patches, not the newer snapshot ones. Any specific patches in mind?

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Well, I hate to say this but this does not sound all that great to me to be "fretting" over trying to match it. I personally get much better tones than this example on my Helix. This is not even a tone that would give me pause to accept it and tweak on it. If this is the flagship of the Fractal I will stick with the Helix.

While I like the high gain of the 2204mod there are so any others that sound so good to me they make me want to play. Like my Shiva mods, Mesa Cleans, Plexi cleans, and HIwatt cleans. The Engl high gain is amazing. Not to be a turd in the punch bowl but so many user presets do not even get close to great tone for me. If you have to farm out to 3rd party IRs all the time maybe you're not that great at tweaking. Other than not being able to move the mic across the plane of the speaker by switching mics, distance and reflection I can get some really great tones. 

But: As I tried to discuss in other threads, real guitar speakers do not stop reproducing a frequency like IR hi and low cuts, they slope. Amp presence controls are often set around 9K, the high end tweak in my Palladium Gainstage is 8K, and despite the Eminence I use on one of my cabs start to roll off at 5.5K you can clearly hear the high end sparkle of those controls. The low end EQ of many gain pedals is at 80hz. So ponder what happens when you low and high cut an IR narrowing these ranges. Does anyone really think a real guitar amp drastically cuts high and lows and yet we model all the time as if they do. You are basically narrowing the EQ spectrum to a tight mid range which might be effective and workable for some things but there is more to tone than reduced EQ ranges. 

As I mentioned in my "Helix Tips" thread you can use the Mic Tube Preamp model set to line impedance and gain at 4.0 which is clean in front of any amp model and often after them and it really helps the tone and illusion of real tubes. Adding reg preamp models just does not sound as good as that Mic Tube Preamp model. It is a subtle enhancement but enhancement none this less, everyone I know that has tried it, likes it. 

Anyway. Tone is what you like, and everyone hears differently, which is glaringly apparent to me on a daily basis. 

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Zooey, I think I heard and know what you are going for. In the video he talks about the pop of the cab and the ring of the of the upper strings against the mids.

 

This is something I get with my EL34 Mesa Stiletto Deuce II (hot rod JCM/Plexi clone), and even my EL34 Line 6 DT50. I noticed the OH G65 cab was also marked V30. With these two pieces of info, I went to my Mesa 212 IR I created using my Stiletto EL34 power section. This should give you a bit of cranked EL34 into V30 cab impedance curve too.

 

I only had about 15 mins for this today, but check this out.

  • R5 SP JCM800.hlx
  • MesRec212_2ioaD_ST_EL34.wav

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5aibsur3rl9r3cq/AABAu_rFwpK7xSf9aJIJOFfHa?dl=0

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Thanks, will check it out when I get a chance, maybe tonight if I can.

 

Not at all the same as the video I posted about, but check out this guy's Helix patches based on the new AC/DC rig rundown, also Marshalls:

AC/DC Rig Rundown + New HELIX Patches | The Gear Page

 

Quite different, but pretty accurate and pretty cool I thought, with a sort-of-related raw punch and percussion to them.

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Yeah, those are cool.  I like the multi-amp and cab concept.  

 

Hard to really tell from the Youtube video, but I think my patch with the IR is a bit livelier.  You can take some top end off in the IR high cut if you like, but I actually liked the highs on the IR wide open in this patch.  Seems to let some nice harmonics through.  It's pretty responsive to the presence control on my guitar.

 

Maybe of note, I set this up using my Gibson LP 68 Reissue.  Those 68 custom pickups are fairly bright and hot.

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Those AC/DC patches are definitely brighter than the Axe one, with less of the cool low-mid punchy gonk thing the Axe one has. Thought they had an immediateness to them that put them nicely in your face though.

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Ahh, the attempts to describe tone will never cease to amuse me.

 

My favorite terms and phrases from this thread:

 

immediateness

livelier

raw punch

raw but polished

bark

authority

grown up aggression

 

We all get to sounding very silly with this stuff at times. ;)

 

From now on, I'm sticking with:

 

"I like it", or "I don't like it", lol

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Hah, that's cool, like it! Will check it next to the Axe one when I can.

 

@cruisin: What, no mention of 'gonk'?  :)  It is hard to talk about this stuff in a way that communicates what about a tone strikes you as desirable and/or rare, especially when it's clear that different people hear or react to the same clips so differently. We do what we can...

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It is hard to talk about this stuff in a way that communicates what about a tone strikes you as desirable and/or rare, especially when it's clear that different people hear or react to the same clips so differently...

Exactly! Which it what makes it all so silly....we're attempting to define the undefinable.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to figure out how to stuff this grand piano in my nose...;)

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Of course it's impossible, but IMO it's worth trying sometimes. It's like when you tell your band about your new song by singing out the parts -- doesn't sound like drums, bass, and keys, but hopefully it gets something useful across. Clearly it communicates more than not saying anything :)

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Clearly it communicates more than not saying anything :)

I dunno...I find that my wife tends to have a deafening silence. ;)

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In order for the comparisons to be accurate and mean anything you have to compare apples with apples. The PA speaker and room mic will make a huge difference versus listening from a direct recording of the helix to computer.

 

After playing around with speakers I think a V30/GB25 watt speaker blend sounds better then the 65 IR I uploaded.

 

Good luck with your tone hunt. If you can describe more of what you think is missing it would be interesting. If you aren't testing against a similar arrangement then used in the video then we have no common base to build from and life changing results become less likely.

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Caught a bit of a break and made a quick soundcloud clip with my patch, IR, and LP...

 

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/r5-sp-jcm800

 

Add to the list "bite" & "balls" :)

Listened to that a bit more when I wasn't so busy, and it really is quite cool. Different from the Axe clip but definitely ballsy. Hope to check out the patch and IR this evening, if the night doesn't get away from me.

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Listened to that a bit more when I wasn't so busy, and it really is quite cool. Different from the Axe clip but definitely ballsy. Hope to check out the patch and IR this evening, if the night doesn't get away from me.

Ha, yeah...I did get the main inspiration from your request and the video but I couldn't help myself tuning it to my taste ;)

 

There should be plenty of room to bring the lows down 1-2db in the para eq or add some low or hi cuts on the IR block if you like.

 

I do have to thank you for the video and inspiration though.  It was a worth while effort.  This patch just replaced my old JCM800 one.

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In order for the comparisons to be accurate and mean anything you have to compare apples with apples. The PA speaker and room mic will make a huge difference versus listening from a direct recording of the helix to computer.

 

After playing around with speakers I think a V30/GB25 watt speaker blend sounds better then the 65 IR I uploaded.

 

Good luck with your tone hunt. If you can describe more of what you think is missing it would be interesting. If you aren't testing against a similar arrangement then used in the video then we have no common base to build from and life changing results become less likely.

Yeah I tried explaining this as well, but somehow the OP turned it into a conversation about listening to youtube loudly and PA speaker breakup.

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Just for fun, I ran the Helix Brit 2204 amp into an Amplitube 4 Brit 8000 cab.  1/2 of the cab is SM57 with Seventy 80 speakers and the other half is a Ribbon 121 mic with V30 speakers.

 

I place the AT4 IR out with the Mesa 212 IR and R5 SP JCM800 preset.

 

Note that with the AT4 IR, I think the preset sounds better with the para eq off.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5aibsur3rl9r3cq/AABAu_rFwpK7xSf9aJIJOFfHa?dl=0

AT4_Marsh800_S80_V30_D57_R.wav

 

Soundcloud clip

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/r5-sp-jcm800-at4-cab

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@Rocco_Crocco, @bshaw92, if you're talking about room ambience, my apologies for misunderstanding when that was originally brought up. As you'd no doubt guess, like most of us, I'm not in a room that size, listening to whatever mix of headset mic, Axe direct, and room mic (is there one?) is on that clip. I'm in my little basement studio listening to a pair of Alesis Alpha 112s. But that doesn't mean we can't try to emulate aspects of the tone he's getting, right? And maybe I'm deluded, but the differences I'm interested in between most of the clips posted here so far and the Axe vid don't strike me like ambience, they're more about overdrive texture and frequency response.

 

@roscoe5, like it :). Hope to get some time to try people's presets and IRs out, maybe tonight.

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So I bought an AX8 to do a product comparison in real life versus basing my final decision on You Tube. I put in these specific values and the bright switch is the factor that changes things using the other variables near the same. I used a V30/M25 IR in both. The gain structure must change in the Helix to be comparable as he has additional gain in the input and bright switch. When taking off the bright switch I can get them very close. With the other values I have to play with more preamp gain and adjust bass and treble......in case you were still wondering.

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