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Feeling less and less enthused about helix.

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What about Ghengis Khan, Idi Amin, King Edward I, Tomás de Torquemada? ;)

sorry, in my country we have more unspeakable names and trust me they are evil; those history characters are cartoons comparing these local guys, but since this kind of analogies are hurting feelings let's keep the sense of humor out of Helix science.

 

THANX FOR READING AND UNDERSTANDING 

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sorry, in my country we have more unspeakable names and trust me they are evil; those history characters are cartoons comparing these local guys, but since this kind of analogies are hurting feelings let's keep the sense of humor out of Helix science.

 

THANX FOR READING AND UNDERSTANDING

You're actually gonna dig the hole even deeper? Now it's a contest over which country has spawned the worst tyrants in history? Ok, you win...if you can call it that.

 

But remind me again, who (for some bizarre reason) began referencing history's most horrible people in a discussion about musical equipment? In an age when you can't even mention your favorite TV weatherman in passing, without someone claiming emotional distress as a result, the fact that you started all this in the first place is baffling to me. And no, I personally wasn't "offended"...but you really shouldn't be surprised that some folks were.

 

Moving on...

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great posts! lots of fun! laughing loud! I never thought history villains became too scary over time

 

I don't understand how goofing causes lots of replies but when serious comments, observations and help requests are totally neglected

 

thank you very much for your support and history lessons

 

I think I will wait till Helix develope a serious high gain tone and see if I really need an extra piece of gear(axe8)

 

and this doesn't mean I'll get rid of my precious HELIX

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How are you getting the signal to your monitors? Direct or through a computer? 

 

The demos of stock presets don't sound too different from what I would expect. But the compensation in EQ in the later demos sounds like it's overcompensating for your listening environment. The demos did sound quiet. I'm not sure what setting you have the volume. Could be an element. Possibly not. And I'm not even sure about the listening environment part.

 

However, I dislike the Orange models for exactly the reason you're here. I imagine the cab blocks are a large portion of the culprit. I'd recommend staying away from them. 

 

I don't really want to type out a huge wall here, but (EDIT: here I go apparently) my recommendation is to look at the internal routing like an actual tube situation. (Also, before I continue, I want to point out that I strongly disagree with your statement that minor EQ can compensate for a muddy guitar/pickup. Sound starts there. Pots, pickups, material. Huge impact.) I rarely go to these high gain amp models for my high gain tones. I'm a bit of a different player, but look back at some of the great high gain pioneers. Also, you might think you need more gain than you really do, but that's a different conversation and I don't want to seem like I'm patronizing you. 

 

I am personally getting very good higher gain results with more classic amps. I think it might benefit you to explore that realm for multiple reasons. One, it'll simplify some of the structure. Going with an amp that "doesn't have" a master volume simplifies the gain sounds. Knowing the difference between preamp and power amp distortion is a good lesson. It can really guide you to how you want to push your amp. 

 

But I want to take one step back with that in mind. Going back to a more classic amp, get a good clean tone. One that sparkles in the way you want. Lush, but not boomy. Then start to push the amp from there. I'm not a huge fan of TS style pedals, but they play their place in tone shaping. They cut some lows and really notch out your tone. I'd recommend a Centaur for a flatter type of drive to push the tone toward what you want. Then pushing the drive on your "masterless" model to continue. An alternative to the drive on the amp could be as simple as a clean boost (EDIT: Clean boost could be as simple as a flat EQ with up to 12db of gain across the board. Or +6 to the mid section and +12 to the highs on the Simple EQ) to slam the front end of the amp. You'll get some nice play with the harmonics going on. 

 

I also suggest (if I haven't already. It appears I'm writing exactly as much as I didn't want to.) from there to start playing with the mics and their placement. Start with just one cab. One mic. It'll isolate the variables in the rig and you can grow from there. You'll be better for it. At least it's good for me, anyway. 

 

It really helps to have some good tube amp experience to guide you through. It really informs you on what kind of beast you're dealing with. For instance, I don't particularly care for Rectifiers for their muddiness indeed. So that's already one step toward what your problem is. I experienced muddiness with most of the high gain models. 5150 might be closer to the bite you're looking for. I am personally having a lot of success with the Bassman. I visit other amps like the AC30 (fawn or not, one of the most capable amps of all time) from time to time, but I keep going back. Then again, I go between rock/metal to blues/jazz, so it's a nice little setup for me. 

 

Just recently though, I've changed the stock cab with the mic six or so inches away and some early reflection to a blackback with an 84 condenser up close. I wasn't liking some low end flub that was happening, so I tightened it up in a 412. This is all to say that there are options. And it's not all necessarily EQ. There are so many characteristics to explore that EQ just won't solve. 

 

In conclusion, I'd say take a look at your pickups (I'm not particularly familiar with yours). And take a look at how you're feeding your signal to your monitors. I imagine it's going through your computer somehow. Could be your interface. Maybe there's some knob turned on your digital "console." If it's not a matter of a dark guitar or a monitoring signal path snafu, take a look at how you're creating your tone. EQ should be a last resort. If you can master edge of breakup tone, you can easily step into the high gain world from there with all the bite and nuance you've ever desired. That's what edge of breakup is all about. 

 

 

 

Now that my dissertation is done, I've been inspired to go mess with the Helix. This thing is really great. I've learned even more because of it. Mostly about cabs and mics, and how they react in a space. It really is a guitar studio in a box. 

 

Signal is running direct from helix via dual XLR, using the helix as a soundcard and using the onboard soundcard yield the same listening experience. In regards to listening environment, I'm not sold that its the case as I can listen to the demos through the same setup, in the same room I'm playing in, no other variables, and the demos sound amazing, this is what is so bloody frustrating to me.... (edit: ok so tried the switches on the back of the monitors, boosted the 2K on both, it hits it with  2db increase, and for the greater part its 90% better straight away! Theres still a little bit of weird mid eq that I dont particularly like in my tone, however now that im not using EQ to fight the effect I was having before I can try and narrow that down now!)

 

As for the quietness of the demos thats direct from USB on the helix to the laptop. No volume adjusted anywhere, hit record on reaper and save. Do I need to push more output on the helix? Or if you know a bit about reaper should I boost the input signal somewhere??

 

Running through all the cabs, and a selection of ownhammer cabs, the onboard "mandarin" cab is the clearest most in room sounding for me. (edit : ok so since adjusting the monitors ill have another look at this one!)

 

Ill give the different OD and clean boost a crack! (edit: gave it a go, came back to the same model again, the minotaur had improvements in some areas but lost some of what I like about the tubescreamer model, out of the two I liked the TS more for me)

 

If i set the mics any further back than 1 or 1.5 its like adding more and more blankets... (Edit: still a bit ame same with that one too)

 

No chance its the choice of pickups here, never had an issue with them playing through my old SS and tube rigs, Randall RG series and Randall RD100.

 

Thanks for the tips though!

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Can everyone sooking over someone mentioning Hitler and who ever it was grow a pair already.... You dont have to be offended by every little thing you read on the internet, especially since none of you here had any direct experience of any of those people mentioned...

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great posts! lots of fun! laughing loud! I never thought history villains became too scary over time

 

I don't understand how goofing causes lots of replies but when serious comments, observations and help requests are totally neglected

 

thank you very much for your support and history lessons

 

I think I will wait till Helix develope a serious high gain tone and see if I really need an extra piece of gear(axe8)

 

and this doesn't mean I'll get rid of my precious HELIX

Helix DOES do good high gain tones. Admittedly, Its far too much work trying to tune them in, and you'll get MAYBE one 'usable" tone with the stock cabs....but if you fritter around long enough....with some IRs....you can come up with some good stuff.

 

A lot high gain tones you hear on albums, are being front-ended with an overdrive or distortion effect, so dont make the mistake of trying to pull it all out of the amp.

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Can everyone sooking over someone mentioning Hitler and who ever it was grow a pair already.... You dont have to be offended by every little thing you read on the internet, especially since none of you here had any direct experience of any of those people mentioned...

I thought that bit of unpleasantness was over but this is just B.S.. Just let it go. You choose to berate the people who respond in a reasonable manner to what sounded like a racist comment in a post. This is a great technical forum and should stay that way. There is no room for this crap and it shouldn't be dragging on. The guy who posted appears to be a decent fellow, clearly did not mean anything by it, and went out of his way to clear things up and apologize for it -- misunderstanding over. That misunderstanding would have remained without subsequent posts. You are just being abusive and keeping the strife rolling. Not surprising I guess coming from the guy who titles his topic "Feeling less and less enthused about helix." because of a problem that could easily be caused by his own user error. Ordinarily I would give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume the Helix glitched but I am trying to make a point. I trust you won't be offended, take my comment personally, or feel like you have to post a response, seeing as how in your own words, you abhor people "sooking" "over every little thing they read on the internet".

 

 

Personally I hope Line6Tony deletes all of the posts (including my own) regarding this stuff as the guy who made the original ill-advised comment was not trying to offend and it is just a bunch of negativity and a distraction.

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Heres another clip for ya man. Its an Uberschall with an IR. Its not a tone Id go for but you had mentioned using that sim so whatever. Its not a sim i care for much.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26654830/UC/uberschall.wav

 

Reason for this is, and i say this with the utmost respect, is that i believe your/ear brain has drifted a bit, from what you think is a good sound. It can happen easily with sooooo many sonic choices, and even though it may sound like im being condescending, its happened to me plenty of times.

 

It sounds like you are adding a lot of treble, trying to achieve a certain tone when maybe you should be looking at different amps/cabs. No matter how much EQ you use a Marshall will never sound likje a boogie, nor will a Bogner sound like a 5150 ECT.

 

Compare my clip to yours, and how much rounder and less trebley my sound is, but how it still fits into the mix. Ive mixed lots and lots of guitar oriented tracks over the last 30 years, and the first thing i would be doing to your "best tone" (the patient riff) track would be looking for ways to warm it up.

 

edit: BTW on a side note - that bass track is the Helix with a 6string guitar and a pitch shifter. Again, not what id go for but one of the more tolerable bass tones ive manufactured in this fashion.

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Heres another clip for ya man. Its an Uberschall with an IR. Its not a tone Id go for but you had mentioned using that sim so whatever. Its not a sim i care for much.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26654830/UC/uberschall.wav

 

Reason for this is, and i say this with the utmost respect, is that i believe your/ear brain has drifted a bit, from what you think is a good sound. It can happen easily with sooooo many sonic choices, and even though it may sound like im being condescending, its happened to me plenty of times.

 

It sounds like you are adding a lot of treble, trying to achieve a certain tone when maybe you should be looking at different amps/cabs. No matter how much EQ you use a Marshall will never sound likje a boogie, nor will a Bogner sound like a 5150 ECT.

 

Compare my clip to yours, and how much rounder and less trebley my sound is, but how it still fits into the mix. Ive mixed lots and lots of guitar oriented tracks over the last 30 years, and the first thing i would be doing to your "best tone" (the patient riff) track would be looking for ways to warm it up.

 

edit: BTW on a side note - that bass track is the Helix with a 6string guitar and a pitch shifter. Again, not what id go for but one of the more tolerable bass tones ive manufactured in this fashion.

Thanks mate appreciate it, I know what your trying to say, and to be honest, I've never mixed a track before, so knowing what fits in the mix vs my just trying to emulate a cab in room sound are no doubt going to be extremely different things. Because if this inexperience it makes it confusing as to what I should be chasing.

I think I made some decent headway today and ill have another crack at recording some little demo tones a bit better tomorrow after work and get you to have a listen!

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Not surprising I guess coming from the guy who titles his topic "Feeling less and less enthused about helix." because of a problem that could easily be caused by his own user error. 

 

Not sure what you are trying to get at as that was genuinely how I was feeling, it got to the point that I wasn't even turning it on because I was so disappointed with what I was hearing. It wasn't an attempt at a post to bring helix down, it was simply a title reflecting my exact feelings at the time regarding my experience.

As for user error, yup, that could be it, that's why I was posting in here asking the questions I asked, could it be me, could it be the product, are my expectations vs reality out of whack. If its user error then hopefully I can get right to the bottom of it and Ill be happy, remember I never claimed to be an expert. Some people are trying to help rather than scoff at the thought they can climb aboard their high horse and shout "USER ERROR" as though they get some sort of personal gain out of the experience... But hey what ever floats your boat champ....

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Can everyone sooking over someone mentioning Hitler and who ever it was grow a pair already.... You dont have to be offended by every little thing you read on the internet, especially since none of you here had any direct experience of any of those people mentioned...

 

 

I thought that bit of unpleasantness was over but this is just B.S.. Just let it go. You choose to berate the people who respond in a reasonable manner to what sounded like a racist comment in a post. This is a great technical forum and should stay that way. There is no room for this crap and it shouldn't be dragging on. The guy who posted appears to be a decent fellow, clearly did not mean anything by it, and went out of his way to clear things up and apologize for it -- misunderstanding over. That misunderstanding would have remained without subsequent posts. You are just being abusive and keeping the strife rolling. Not surprising I guess coming from the guy who titles his topic "Feeling less and less enthused about helix." because of a problem that could easily be caused by his own user error. Ordinarily I would give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume the Helix glitched but I am trying to make a point. I trust you won't be offended, take my comment personally, or feel like you have to post a response, seeing as how in your own words, you abhor people "sooking" "over every little thing they read on the internet".

 

 

Personally I hope Line6Tony deletes all of the posts (including my own) regarding this stuff as the guy who made the original ill-advised comment was not trying to offend and it is just a bunch of negativity and a distraction.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to get at as that was genuinely how I was feeling, it got to the point that I wasn't even turning it on because I was so disappointed with what I was hearing. It wasn't an attempt at a post to bring helix down, it was simply a title reflecting my exact feelings at the time regarding my experience.

As for user error, yup, that could be it, that's why I was posting in here asking the questions I asked, could it be me, could it be the product, are my expectations vs reality out of whack. If its user error then hopefully I can get right to the bottom of it and Ill be happy, remember I never claimed to be an expert. Some people are trying to help rather than scoff at the thought they can climb aboard their high horse and shout "USER ERROR" as though they get some sort of personal gain out of the experience... But hey what ever floats your boat champ....

 

Don't you think this last post of yours is kind of a pathetic attempt to come off as the wronged innocent?  Your original post (quoted at the top here) is the one I responded to and it was hostile and insulting, especially to anyone who looks up the meaning of the word you used "sooking", not to speak of the content of the rest of your post. So how about we not pretend that my comment to you just mysteriously appeared when you were just a poor soul seeking help.

 

My response was to your abusive language and content and I even told you it was simply to demonstrate that while you were quite offensively criticizing my effort to respond to racism in the forum, you could not even resist responding to a comment I made that simply questioned the somewhat abrasive way you went about seeking assistance.   Surely you could have thought of a title like "Need Help With My Tone" rather than the more incendiary "Feeling less and less enthused about helix.".  Judging by the title you expect others to be respectful of your feelings, how about returning the favor.  

 

I told you that the only reason I questioned your post was to show you how difficult it was not to respond to something you think is wrong.  Sure enough you managed to miss my point while simultaneously making it. Forget about a comment that could definitely be construed as racist, you could not even resist responding to a comment that mildly criticized the way you asked this forum for help. Do you not see the irony here?  What happened to your stance of not needing to post a response to "every little thing you read on the internet"? Clearly a double standard you only hold others to. I replied to and was able to clear up a misunderstanding due to someone who had no intention of making a highly loaded and offensive statement but did so innocently and from what I can tell was bummed out by the response it evoked. Your response was to try and cyber-bully me. Highly questionable behavior. I find your comments harder to fathom as he actually meant no harm. 

 

My record speaks for itself. I go out of my way to help other users who are having technical issues and rely on them in return. You can look at over a thousand of my posts that will demonstrate that. We may disagree at times but I do my best not to insult fellow users and vice-versa. Usually but not always we succeed in that endeavor and when we don't it is often done with humor, not bile.  Why not just admit you were being rude "champ" and let the issue drop? Or not, I really don't care. Anyway, I am done here, I have seen these conversations escalate before and I have no wish to be caught up in the back and forth. I know most of my fellow forum members do their best to clear up misunderstandings where possible and don't get caught up in ugly exchanges that have no business here and truly bring down the quality of this forum and the value it delivers on a daily basis. I, like so many other people here try to speak out against racism or other issues that don't belong on the forum, try to understand where others are coming from, and I don't appreciate being bullied in return and question your motives for doing so. Anyway, I hope you can take this with the same thick skin you seem to be insisting everyone else have. 'Nuff said!

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Ok, ok...let's settle this once and for all. Everyone drop their pants, and I'll get the tape measure. ;)

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A lot high gain tones you hear on albums, are being front-ended with an overdrive or distortion effect, so dont make the mistake of trying to pull it all out of the amp.

absolutely right! I said Helix needs lots of tweaks(in a positive way, I'm not saying is difficult to get a great tone, I'm saying it's a precision divice with response behaviour that needs more work)

now, on the other side, real amps may do this work without extra effects; there was one gig I played with an Instrument Rental Studio amp(a boogie) that was incredibly modified and there was no need for extra help for high gain, overdrive and distortion

then, a good amp-tech may do this job and you'll be playing direct front with only your guitar if that's the purpose

modelers, reverbs, wah, compression, etc... is something else, but high gain only with an amp by itself is possible; that's why I really would like Line 6 works on this. No extra stomp flavour required or needed. Have you tried PODxt the Spinal Puppet model? the high gain in this "amp" is sufficient for what VROLLING is asking for. I still use it a lot.

thanx for reading and for your great ideas and sharing info

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Don't you think this last post of yours is kind of a pathetic attempt to come off as the wronged innocent?  Your original post (quoted at the top here) is the one I responded to and it was hostile and insulting, especially to anyone who looks up the meaning of the word you used "sooking", not to speak of the content of the rest of your post. So how about we not pretend that my comment to you just mysteriously appeared when you were just a poor soul seeking help.

 

My response was to your abusive language and content and I even told you it was simply to demonstrate that while you were quite offensively criticizing my effort to respond to racism in the forum, you could not even resist responding to a comment I made that simply questioned the somewhat abrasive way you went about seeking assistance.   Surely you could have thought of a title like "Need Help With My Tone" rather than the more incendiary "Feeling less and less enthused about helix.".  Judging by the title you expect others to be respectful of your feelings, how about returning the favor.  

 

I told you that the only reason I questioned your post was to show you how difficult it was not to respond to something you think is wrong.  Sure enough you managed to miss my point while simultaneously making it. Forget about a comment that could definitely be construed as racist, you could not even resist responding to a comment that mildly criticized the way you asked this forum for help. Do you not see the irony here?  What happened to your stance of not needing to post a response to "every little thing you read on the internet"? Clearly a double standard you only hold others to. I replied to and was able to clear up a misunderstanding due to someone who had no intention of making a highly loaded and offensive statement but did so innocently and from what I can tell was bummed out by the response it evoked. Your response was to try and cyber-bully me. Highly questionable behavior. I find your comments harder to fathom as he actually meant no harm. 

 

My record speaks for itself. I go out of my way to help other users who are having technical issues and rely on them in return. You can look at over a thousand of my posts that will demonstrate that. We may disagree at times but I do my best not to insult fellow users and vice-versa. Usually but not always we succeed in that endeavor and when we don't it is often done with humor, not bile.  Why not just admit you were being rude "champ" and let the issue drop? Or not, I really don't care. Anyway, I am done here, I have seen these conversations escalate before and I have no wish to be caught up in the back and forth. I know most of my fellow forum members do their best to clear up misunderstandings where possible and don't get caught up in ugly exchanges that have no business here and truly bring down the quality of this forum and the value it delivers on a daily basis. I, like so many other people here try to speak out against racism or other issues that don't belong on the forum, try to understand where others are coming from, and I don't appreciate being bullied in return and question your motives for doing so. Anyway, I hope you can take this with the same thick skin you seem to be insisting everyone else have. 'Nuff said!

 

Wow, if you think the title of my post is "abrasive" then you need to get out more. No one likes an SJW, stop trying to make everything more than it needs to be...

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I feel I should share this.

 

Since I got the Helix the main tones I have been dialing in are clean and slighty driven lead tones. The Helix has excelled in that more than any other modeler has for me. 

 

I have started to dial in higher gain lead tones, and I will also get to higher gain rhythm tones as well... Last weekend I was dialing in a medium to high gain lead patch for a humbucker equipped guitar.  I got "meh" tones. Today I went back and edited that patch. I removed all the studio mic pre that I was trying on it. I used a dist pedal, split the cabinet pathway, merged them afterwards. Sent the processing to chain B split the path like I did with the cabinets, and put reverb (chamber) on one, and Vintage delay on the other, and mixed to taste.  I adjusted the internal stuff for the amp like Bias-X, and resonance, and one or two others.   After that I played a little and quickly realized I just dialed in the best medium-to-high gain lead tone I ever had. Plenty of sustain without drowning it in distortion, and it cuts through a full mix. With the internal HX Cabs too.

 

Today my worries of if Helix can do high gain are severely diminished. I think it will be able to do basically whatever I want it, and I can want some pretty heavy sounds at times.

 

For my personal experience it seems every time I get disappointed in the Helix... I spend a little more time with it and I am even more impressed than I thought I would be.  Its quite a unit. I even toy-ed with the idea of getting a Kemper to use with the Helix, but I don't even think that will be needed. The Helix seems to impress me the more I work with it.

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