IRs with power amp baked in

[pegagos]

After watching the explanation video from Ola's blind test comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDF1oFyBI6U, he talks about his IR having the power amp of the Mark iic+ baked into the IR, so he only used the preamp block with the IR containing the power amp, cab and mic. I downloaded his preset yesterday and sounded pretty bad lollipop with my guitar and my system, but I didn't really look at what he did until today. It got me thinking about the IRs from 3 sigma audio that I purchased last week. The manual says that version A was used with the power section of a 5150 and version B was used using a flat power amp. So my question is: do you guys run just the preamp block and the IR that has the power amp baked in? I've been running the amp block with the IR block, but I'm going to experiment with just the preamp block since the IR has a power amp baked in. I am at work right now, so I can't try it, but I just wanted to see what you guys are doing. 

 

By the way, I love my Helix. It bothers me that these comparison videos by popular youtube channels don't seem to dial in the Helix right and a lot of potential users are put off by it by an unfair comparison. He didn't even use a iic+ model on the Helix because it doesnt have one. I don't understand why he didn't use a Rectifier since all of the units have that model and I'm sure he has a real rectifier as well. Of course the Helix is going to stick out like not sounding like the real amp. He didn't even tweak them and used the same settings on the iic+, ax8 and Helix. He didn't use his ears at all. So people see that as the Helix can't sound close to the real thing. There are so many wrong things with that comparison. He tweaked the Kemper in a follow up video, why din't he tweak the Helix too? Anyways, I didn't mean to rant, but it just happened. I actually liked all of them and I can see through the difference in settings etc, but most people on that channel don't seem to. 

 

Let me know your thoughts on the IRs with baked in power amp. Have I been doing it wrong by using the amp block instead of preamp block. 

 

Thanks

 

 

[roscoe5]

I use IR'S made from my own Mesa gear with the tube power amps "baked in". I use the same recto 212 and capture IR'S using an EL34 Stiletto, 6L6 Rectifier and 6L6 Mark V, and 20/20 EL84.

 

Makes a HUGE difference in realism to me.

 

Now I actually still prefer to use full Helix amp models with these. I just match up the Helix amp type with the appropriate power section IR, much in the same way you would change topology and class on a Line 6 DT amp. You don't get the power amp compression and distortion in an IR, but you do with the Helix full amp models. You do get more realistic amp/cab response between particular tube power amp and cab in the amp baked IR though.

 

I wish I had more cab types and speakers, but that is $ and space that I do not have. Celestion V30s are pretty versitile though.

[mileskb]

All IR's are technically "baked" with an AMP..   Something has to drive the sweep signal through the speaker.  3Sigma uses a modded 5150 for and a Custom Flat sold-state amp for their two versions of each position.

 

The resulting "imprint" is the result of what the speaker does with the sweep signal and who knows exactly what they are sweeping with?  If you notice they use an assortment of microphones to create ONE imprint.  Each mic adds it's nuance but they have figured out the formula that mimics the cabinet the best and they do this in the 5 basic positions.   Oddly enough the "a" position is usually the best sounding (to me) although in real life, that's likely the LAST position you'd ever put a mic on a cab...   My point is...  there is more to IR's than just pointing a microphone at a speaker.

 

Back to your question...  first the Caveat...  if NOT using amp, pre-amp, cab, or whatever sounds good... use it.  THERE ARE NO RULES...  However, likely the best place to start is using an AMP (no cab) before the IR.   But... maybe... depending on the CAB, it might sound better with an IR after an actual CAB to dial it in even better.  

 

Looking at the way Glenn and Scott use IR's has really gotten me to think outside the box so to speak. 

 

One thing that is very apparent, and maybe should be a requirement in ANY post about "creating a sound" is "what are you trying to accomplish" first.  I know it sounds basic, but as I read people's input...  you have to figure out what context they are using

 

The choices are "create a tone that you like"  "create a tone that mimics an existing amp/cab out of the box" and "create a tone that mimics the sound of an artist either live or recorded."    

 

This was real apparent when I dropped some coin to Glenn, Fremen and Scott.  

I use Scott's presets mostly for genre and songs.

I use Glenn's presets mostly for Artists sounds

I use Fremen presets mostly for just great sounds for me.

 

They all do a little of everything... but back to your question...  "So my question is: do you guys run just the preamp block and the IR that has the power amp baked in? I"   Sometimes, unless I run the preamp into an amp to an IR or unless I run an amp/cab block with an IR or or or or or or or or or .........

[pegagos]

All IR's are technically "baked" with an AMP..   Something has to drive the sweep signal through the speaker.  3Sigma uses a modded 5150 for and a Custom Flat sold-state amp for their two versions of each position.

 

The resulting "imprint" is the result of what the speaker does with the sweep signal and who knows exactly what they are sweeping with?  If you notice they use an assortment of microphones to create ONE imprint.  Each mic adds it's nuance but they have figured out the formula that mimics the cabinet the best and they do this in the 5 basic positions.   Oddly enough the "a" position is usually the best sounding (to me) although in real life, that's likely the LAST position you'd ever put a mic on a cab...   My point is...  there is more to IR's than just pointing a microphone at a speaker.

 

Back to your question...  first the Caveat...  if NOT using amp, pre-amp, cab, or whatever sounds good... use it.  THERE ARE NO RULES...  However, likely the best place to start is using an AMP (no cab) before the IR.   But... maybe... depending on the CAB, it might sound better with an IR after an actual CAB to dial it in even better.  

 

Looking at the way Glenn and Scott use IR's has really gotten me to think outside the box so to speak. 

 

One thing that is very apparent, and maybe should be a requirement in ANY post about "creating a sound" is "what are you trying to accomplish" first.  I know it sounds basic, but as I read people's input...  you have to figure out what context they are using

 

The choices are "create a tone that you like"  "create a tone that mimics an existing amp/cab out of the box" and "create a tone that mimics the sound of an artist either live or recorded."    

 

This was real apparent when I dropped some coin to Glenn, Fremen and Scott.  

I use Scott's presets mostly for genre and songs.

I use Glenn's presets mostly for Artists sounds

I use Fremen presets mostly for just great sounds for me.

 

They all do a little of everything... but back to your question...  "So my question is: do you guys run just the preamp block and the IR that has the power amp baked in? I"   Sometimes, unless I run the preamp into an amp to an IR or unless I run an amp/cab block with an IR or or or or or or or or or .........

Thanks for this response. So far, I've been enjoying using the Amp block with IRs and it just didn't cross my mind to try the preamp block instead, specially when the IRs are advertised as having power amp coloration. I know this is subjective and if it sounds good, then it's good. I was just curious as to what most people are doing and also to just put it put there for people to at least think about this. I'm going to experiment with this for sure tonight when I get home from work. 

 

I usually build my tones from scratch and find something that feels good, responds like I like and fits in my mix. I normally do not like presets that I did not build myself, but I downloaded Ola's to see what kind of settings he used on the amp, because I used to own a real Mark IV and wanted to see if he really dialed like a real Mark IV for that type of sound. You know, low on the bass, mids very low, low presence and high treble and he did. I also owned a Mark III and dialed it very similar. 

[cruisinon2]

It bothers me that these comparison videos by popular youtube channels don't seem to dial in the Helix right and a lot of potential users are put off by it by an unfair comparison.

All depends on one's goal, I suppose. Now I haven't watched it, but if the underlying sentiment is "modeling sucks, and real amps will forever sound better", or "modeling is awesome, but only Fractal, Kemper, and the Gorton's Fisherman know how to do it properly", it wouldn't surprise me for a less than flattering Helix example to be displayed for the masses. Everybody's got an agenda. The internet is a terrible place...;)

[Verne-Bunsen]

Even when the bias is unintentional, it seems that a great many of these "shootout" videos are made by guys who have been using their Fractal or Kemper gear for years but just borrowed their buddy's Helix 10 minutes before the shoot and have not spent much time learning the machine. It should come as no surprise that the gear they are intimately familiar with sounds better under their fingers!

[pegagos]

All depends on one's goal, I suppose. Now I haven't watched it, but if the underlying sentiment is "modeling sucks, and real amps will forever sound better", or "modeling is awesome, but only Fractal, Kemper, and the Gorton's Fisherman know how to do it properly", it wouldn't surprise me for a less than flattering Helix example to be displayed for the masses. Everybody's got an agenda. The internet is a terrible place... ;)

You nailed it. 

[pegagos]

Even when the bias is unintentional, it seems that a great many of these "shootout" videos are made by guys who have been using their Fractal or Kemper gear for years but just borrowed their buddy's Helix 10 minutes before the shoot and have not spent much time learning the machine. It should come as no surprise that the gear they are intimately familiar with sounds better under their fingers!

Exactly. You know the Kemper comes with stock amps and so does the Bias head, why didn't he use the stock amps? He went out of his way to tone match those two products. Why didn't he spend time to dial in the Helix or at least tone match with the knobs a little. Why didn't he used the same knob settings on the Bias Head and Kemper? He's had an axe fx for so long that he knows exactly what to do to match it to the real amp.  It sucks, because I went in there to defend Helix users and posted some of the things wrong with the comparison and naturally I come across as that Helix user upset that everyone is brutally putting the down the Helix, when they don't really understand how he's just comparing 4 iic+ emulations tweaked to perfection vs 1 mark IV emulation not tweaked. Like you said, it could have been unintentional, but someone as knowledgeable as Ola in production, amps and guitars should know that a Mark IV is not the same as Mark iic+.  So many things wrong with that video and unfair to potential buyers missing out on a great product just because of an unfair comparison. 

[mileskb]

It could be argued that one unit may have presets that enable you to get to your starting point quicker.  Even while that is subjective, it makes sense that if you are looking for a mesa boogie model and one unit has 3 mesa boogie presets and the other has 50 mesa boogie presets... the one that has 50 mesa boogie presets is more likely to have a preset pretty close to where you want to start from.   So in that respect, comparison might be useful.

 

However, unfortunately the only genuine comparison test, I do not believe has been done yet.   That is where people who are experts with their respective units, sit down and attempt to create the same sound or sets of sounds.   Like each create a typical Engl, or Fender, or Vox or Roland, etc.. or just a gain sound and a clean sound.   Basically getting together and trying to get their modelers to sound the same as each other.  ALl the units hooked the same way through the same monitors. I think if someone could put that together, you'd find the differences boil down to features such as the UI and routing and that if you were testing lets say a Helix, Kemper and AxFX, you'd end up with three units creating sounds that you couldn't tell apart from each other.

 

The next step would be where it gets interesting.  Now that all the units sound the same pick an aspect such as Sustain or EQ make the same changes to each and see what happens.   Will pushing the 1Khz EQ, with the same q factor up 3db on all the units result in them still sounding the same?  Will reducing the gain on each result in them sounding the same?  I would think they would no longer all sound exactly the same, but then comes step 3.

 

The real test, just pick one units sound now that there was a slight change, and match the other two to it.

 

Again, my guess is that you'd end up with 3 identical sounding units again, but worst case would be you'd end up with three very similar sounding units that you wouldn't really be able to make a "better" call... just note they have subtle differences. 

 

It all comes down to the features..  

[Digital_Igloo]

Ben via email (he said it's okay to quote him):

By Ola’s verbal description, I get the impression that he turned off the power amp simulation for both the Fractal AX8 and the Helix. I downloaded his patch and indeed found this to be true.

His reason for doing this was because he created an IR of his own cabinet using the tube power amp of the Mesa. While this will capture certain tonal aspects of the tube power amp, it certainly does not capture all of them. Plus, IRs don’t capture nonlinear elements. In short, both Helix and AX8 were essentially being played without the full, intended modeling process.

Sure, tone is essentially subjective, metal music is based around preamp distortion, and I’ve heard of plenty of situations where metal dudes intentionally will use only the preamp versions of the models. Still, a very important part of our modeling process was essentially left out.​

 

In Ola's defense, this likely wasn't his direct intention, and the exercise was really fun and engaging regardless.

[roscoe5]

And the nonlinear aspects not captured by the IR process I believe are things like compression and distortion that exist in the Helix amp models, correct DI?

 

Like I mentioned above, I am finding some pretty sweet sounds using Helix full amp models with matching baked in power amp IRs of the same amp type.

 

There might be a little tonal overlap, but each cover the gaps of the other.

[cruisinon2]

And the nonlinear aspects not captured by the IR process I believe are things like compression and distortion that exist in the Helix amp models, correct DI?

 

Like I mentioned above, I am finding some pretty sweet sounds using Helix full amp models with matching baked in power amp IRs of the same amp type.

 

There might be a little tonal overlap, but each cover the gaps of the other.

At the end of the day, if it works and you're happy with the results, then who cares how you get there?

 

I'd smear peanut butter on the speaker cones if I thought it would help...;)

[pegagos]

Last night and today I've been jamming with this chain: 808, panama preamp and with Zilla 4a 3 sigma audio IR with low cut and hight cut. The levels were very low so I compensated on the preamp and and cab block. I must say I ve been enjoying this sound quite a bit. It's different, to me it sounds and feels more like an amp in the room. It does feel like something is missing when switching from amp block to preamp amp, but for the way I play it just feels tighter and more raw and open which I really like. I need to experiment some more with other amps and IRs but definitely going to build some patches of this setup. It don't know how it translate to other amps and styles yet, but for a progressive metal type sound in Drop C with hard picking it's working for me. Just wanted to share my findings. If you guys want, I'll post some clips tomorrow so you guys can hear the type of sound I'm talking about.

 

Peanut butter on the speaker cone? Maybe that's the recipe for the brown sound 😂

[roscoe5]

Last night and today I've been jamming with this chain: 808, panama preamp and with Zilla 4a 3 sigma audio IR with low cut and hight cut. The levels were very low so I compensated on the preamp and and cab block. I must say I ve been enjoying this sound quite a bit. It's different, to me it sounds and feels more like an amp in the room. It does feel like something is missing when switching from amp block to preamp amp, but for the way I play it just feels tighter and more raw and open which I really like. I need to experiment some more with other amps and IRs but definitely going to build some patches of this setup. It don't know how it translate to other amps and styles yet, but for a progressive metal type sound in Drop C with hard picking it's working for me. Just wanted to share my findings. If you guys want, I'll post some clips tomorrow so you guys can hear the type of sound I'm talking about.

 

Peanut butter on the speaker cone? Maybe that's the recipe for the brown sound

 

I dig the tube power amp IR's too and have been think a lot about Helix preamp vs amp models and those.   

 

I'm thinking about posting to IdeaScale to a a power section mix or level control to the Helix full amp models.  This could help DT amp users as well as those using other real tube amps.  It would be nice to have just a touch of the Helix amp power section modeling when running into real tube amp power sections.  The Helix preamps are just a little too stark for my tastes with DT50.

[cruisinon2]

Peanut butter on the speaker cone? Maybe that's the recipe for the brown sound 😂

Lol...

[Ka5par]

If the intent behind the products is to mimick the real world amps and effects, then the comparisons should be done between the modeler and the original units.
Same amps, cabs, mics and mic positions. Which comes closer, that one is the better product in that regard.

Which one sounds best is still for everybody themselves to decide. For some uses the real world amp might not be the best choice.