POD HD500X and valve amp's own distortion

[gbr13697]

I have just bought a POD HD500X, and I'm using it into a Fender Bassbreaker 007 and 1x12 speaker cab.  One of my problems with this amp was the very low clean headroom.  I was getting valve breakup distortion with gain on 2 with any reasonable pickup output.  With the gain this low, cleans were pretty quiet even with the volume full up.

I previously used a Boss GT100, and had to reduce the input level in settings to avoid getting dirt straight in.

The POD HD500X seems to over-ride the amp in some way.  The output from the POD seems a little less than parity, in that the guitar straight in apparently gives a bit more gain and volume than the via the POD.  However, when going through the POD I can turn the gain and volume on the amp up to 10 without any appreciable valve breakup.  This does mean that I have to create the dirt in the POD, but it does give me a huge increase in the volume of clean sound.

I can't see how the POD is cleaning up the sound and apparently stopping the amp from going distorted even at very high gain and volume settings.  If I put the guitar straight in on these settings, it is just wall to wall distortion.  Can anyone explain how this is happening?

[gbr13697]

It does seem to be a little less than parity, even with everything turned up (but with no amp or effects in the POD signal chain).  It is possible that I haven't worked out the mixer yet.   It is a little difficult to tell, as the guitar straight in is quite sufficient to push the amp into distortion with gain at only 2-3.  Putting the POD in the chain seems to clean up the sound through the amp, at the same or even much higher gain settings.  This isn't a problem, as I am pleased to get the extra clean headroom.  I just can't work out how the POD is preventing the Bassbreaker amp from distorting at high gain settings.

I am used to the GT100 which tends to boost the signal, even when not intended. I had to turn down the guitar input to the GT100 by 10db (i.e. quite a bit less than parity), and keep the amp gain under 2-3 to prevent the sound breaking up with valve distortion.  Any boost to the signal was instant dirt.

I don't understand how I can put a (nearly) parity signal in from the POD, and turn the amp gain up to 8-9 without getting the amp's natural valve distortion.  As I said, it's not a problem.  I just can't work out how it's happening!

[BillBee]

Yep, that is a problem with going in the front of an amp. As you discovered with the GT you can actually push the pre-amp to distortion even with it set on clean. The only thing I can see without being there hands on is what Nico is implying "the Pod's output is not driving it like the GT's based on output volume". Could be what you have the HD's input set to - impedance - 1 meg? Remember there are a boat load of things affecting the HD's output volume (mixer, amp model vol, master, eqs....etc).

 

I do like that head too real nice with a TS cranked in front.

[gbr13697]

Thanks for the replies guys.  On comparing results on other amps, including my Blackstar HT5R, I now realise that there is a significant signal loss through the POD. I get more volume, gain, and frequency response, with the guitar straight into any of the amps.  With no effects or amps on the POD chain, I have to increase the Mixer volumes by 6-8db to achieve the same volume and gain and, even then, there is noticeable tone suck.  I think I have found and adjusted the "usual culprits" listed by Guru.  

You can obviously get acceptable volume, gain, and tone, by inserting boost, EQ, and amps into the POD signal chain, but I think the natural characteristics of different guitars will inevitably get lost.  I have some nice guitars, so that is a little disappointing.  However, I have now been reminded of the obvious - that putting anything in the signal chain will change the sound, and almost nothing is really transparent.  I will just work on getting some new and different sounds from the POD, and use other effects or amps for other sounds.  At least this has prompted me to just plug my guitars straight into the amp occasionally!

[gbr13697]

Thanks Hurghanico.  I can't use the 4 cable method with the Bassbreaker 007 as it doesn't have an effects loop.  I can try it on my Blackstar HT5.  I am already experimenting with the Mixer volumes and pan, and impedance settings.  I will get there eventually.  I'm pleased that I'm not the only one seeing signal loss and tone suck through the POD, and that there are solutions.  I was thinking I had a faulty unit, given the assurance in the manual that turning volume and master up to 100% should give signal parity.  Even without adjustments there can benefits such as the increased clean headroom on the Bassbreaker.

[gbr13697]

Hurghanico - as you say, that is interesting, and largely confirms what I have found by ear as opposed to accurate instrumentation.  I have adopted the suggestions you brought to my attention, particularly the mixer panning/volumes, impedance setting, and putting in a Noise Gate as suggested by Tyler.  This certainly brings the gain/volume into line.  The other notable item I have found is Settings > Outputs > High where Line6 have put in a default substantial attenuation.  After restoring this to Flat my Strat sounds like a Strat again!

It seems strange that Line6 would have chosen such a tone changing setting by default.  It is nice to have some adjustment available for particular guitars and rigs, but to have a default substantial attenuation for Highs and Lows is an odd starting point.

[gbr13697]

Hi Hughanico (again!).  Why would there be a distinction with using amp models that would make the attenuation more appropriate?

If you are using the POD as a stomp box with amp modelling into a normal guitar amp, most people would set the EQ on the real amp.  If they were also using the amp models, they might also use the EQ in the amp models, particularly if they were creating patches for a number of different guitars.  However, if the high and low parts of the guitar's natural characteristics have already been taken out in the Setup>Output settings, nothing you can do of the amp models or on the real amp will ever properly put them back. The user's perception will simply be that the POD has sucked all the tone out.  

Most new users will have accepted the manual's recommendation to set the output for Combo, Stack or whatever, and are unlikely to choose the transparent Studio/Direct option.  They might also accept (or not even notice) the Low/High attenuation on the basis of thinking that Line6 probably know best.  

This default setting certainly has a detrimental effect on the sound of my guitars.  I am struggling to see the reasoning behind tucking away such a major EQ adjustment in a global setting, and how it could be better for using amp models into a real amp.

[gbr13697]

Thank you for the explanation Hurghanico.  I can see the reasoning in there, provided that the adjustment really is in the output stage of the POD.  However, I still don't think it is a good idea to put EQ in globally, where the less initiated user might be totally unaware of it.  I would think that the advice you quote of turning down the bass and treble on the guitar amp at the end of the chain is by far the better option.  You also have the option of EQ in the modeled amps.

If the same uninitiated user is just using effects and no amps, it's just a tone sucker. Once you have taken tone out of a signal you can never put it back.

Thanks for all your input to my queries.  You have been a great help.