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Paying for patches and the "sense of community"

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First of all, I don't want to hurt anybody's way to make (or help to make) a living. With that out of the way:

There's something that's been bugging me for some time now, and maybe I just don't really understand why some people want to pay for 3rd party patches that they're gonna have to tweak to taste anyway, and, no matter how similar the gear used (to that used in making the patch), they're never gonna sound the same, so I ask myself, what's the point? 

In the past, I've used custom tone to get samples of what others think sounds like a given song or artist, only to find that, even though there were some good patches, some others (even from the same authors as some good ones) weren't even in the ballpark of what they were trying to get. 

I can understand that there can be some reasons to buy other guy's patches, like lazyness, lack of ability, lack of perspective (maybe being helix proficient but not knowing how to get that certain sound), and maybe the most important of them, lack of time, but I'm curious about your reasons, really. 

It's just that, I just want to know what you all think about that matter.

And ...doesn't it harm the sense of community? I mean, why should anybody (specially people whose patches may be just as good as "commercial" ones) share patches on customtone when there are others that don't share theirs?

Any thoughts?

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I bought some just to see how someone else did it. I've also got some from the community. Some great, some not so.

 

The ones I bought were from Glenn Delaunce. I've very much enjoyed his vintage amp pack. Cost me around £14. Which considering a coffee costs me £2.50 ain't too bad.

 

I'm limited time wise. In my younger days I'd of spent all day and night tweaking. But now time is tight.

 

Is say all of Glenn's sounded really good. Where as free ones are a bit more hit and miss.

 

Would I buy any more? No. It's was more something to try to see what I could learn.

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If you consider creating really nice patches that take a lot of work, testing, a great ear, more work, more testing, making videos that demo them and describe how they work as a "service" that is worth a few bucks, they are a good deal.  Most (all) of the patches I've seen for sale you can get for just a few bucks each or even less.  I seriously doubt the folks doing this are getting rich off their hard work.  So in that way, they *are* providing a community service for a very small amount of compensation.  I doubt any of them are buying yachts and living it up in the Caribbean based on these.

 

On the other hand, I've found a few nice things on Custom Tone, but all in all, I have discovered that Custom Tone is not worth my time.  Certainly there are a few gems up there, but it's like searching for a needle in they haystack.

 

But one can spend a few bucks get a set of really great patches from Glenn, Fremen, Scott, or other folks.  If they posted their patches to Custom Tone, chances are one may never find them because of all the chaff on Custom Tone - finding a great tone there is like looking for a needle in a haystack.  But for the cost of a fast-food lunch, you can get a couple handfuls of a great tones.  So maybe just consider the for-pay tones as the VIP concierge treatment for curated Custom Tone service where the tones happened to be created by the curator. :)

 

Saves you the time of filtering through all the chaff - and that's gotta be worth something. :-)

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Again, like anything related to the Helix, it should be prefaced with how you use your Helix.  If you are playing in a cover band where you need to sound like 100 different guitarists on any given night, or if you are looking for "your" sound.

 

I'm a bit of both in that I'm working on "my" sound, but also... I like jamming with others and it's just quicker to dial up a tone that's already 90% there.

 

The other part is how to get the tone I'm looking for.  Time is a factor for me and while my ears for "eq" and "instruments placement" have been a gift, my ability to know if the breakup I'm listening to is distortion, sustain, compression, bias, sag, or ripple is admittedly lacking.   Also, having played with the same gear for so long, I'm not familiar with the subtle differences and nuances of many of the effects.. or more importantly how to invoke them.   

 

Purchasing presets from a reliable source like Scott of the THeHelixChannel or Glenn Delaune or the Fremen set...  enable me to learn how to do what they are doing and how they did it.   So when it's time for me to tweak a patch, I now have a place to start.

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I don't have the time, skill, or patience to create quality tones from scratch. I have gladly paid for many, and will continue to do so. I seldom have to do much more than a little tweaking to get them just right for me. 

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Again, like anything related to the Helix, it should be prefaced with how you use your Helix.  If you are playing in a cover band where you need to sound like 100 different guitarists on any given night, or if you are looking for "your" sound.

Both, really, same as you. I use it for my own stuff, which varies, depending on the band. 

In one of them (electronic rock, to put some name to it) I use a lot of fx, routing tricks, real time control... external GR-55 into a stereo return... extensive use of Helix's flexibility. Helix becomes a source of inspiration, not only in creating my parts, and (heavily) influencing the sound of the band, but also in the very process of creating the patches. It's like I'm always challenged to try new things.

Another band (indie something) requires simpler sounds and a much more conventional use of fx.

...And then there's the band with which I gig the most, a professional cover band where I play "second" guitar and lead vocals.

We cover a lot of ground from soul to metal, but I'm not interested in nailing the tones of the songs we cover.

I could. I used to, but not anymore.

Now I prefer to just find something appropriate, some tone that makes me/us sound better, something that I enjoy playing. It's ok if it resembles the original (or nails it) and it's also ok if it doesn't. Preferable, even, in some cases. 

I create my own patches for every band. It's fun, quick, exciting, and rather easy.

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I bought Glenn's custom artist set and gilmour set. I was massively underwhelmed with both. In my set up everything just sounds very similar. I do however appreciate the time and effort gone into making them and that's worth a couple of quid from my wallet. Iv been spending a huge amount of time creating Floyd tones, so much so I haven't actually been playing. I would never dream of asking for money for them. I did post one on here and asked for feedback. It's been downloaded a lot and no one has commented so I won't be sharing again. Maybe the only way people know how to show gratatude is with £££$$$€€€

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I've never purchased any patches and only downloaded a few from custom tone in the very early days of owning my HD500X.  The reasons for this are multiple:

 

1.  The sound of a patch is highly dependent on what your rig consists of, type of guitar, output/monitor mechnisms.

 

2.  The workflow I use is likely different than the person who created the tone.  For example, I NEVER use snapshots.  I use a patch per song.  I only enable stomp buttons I will need to turn on/off within that song.  I have a consistent placement for these enabled stomps on my board from song to song.  It's highly unlikely a downloaded patch will match my workflow so why should I pay for something I would have to so heavily modify?  My time is worth something too.

 

3.  I can likely get the tone I want on my own in a much faster way than to dissect someone else's work.

 

4.  By creating all my own patches I'm fully in control of what I may need to do to modify them if need be when I get to a gig or at rehearsal.

 

I guess I can understand why some people may not want to invest the time into learning how to create their own patches.  You don't have to be a computer programmer to use a computer.  But that's just not me.  If I spend the money on a Helix, I expect I should be able to master the use of that unit in whatever ways I may need to without being dependent on others.

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I can understand that there can be some reasons to buy other guy's patches, like lazyness, lack of ability, lack of perspective (maybe being helix proficient but not knowing how to get that certain sound), and maybe the most important of them, lack of time, but I'm curious about your reasons, really. 

 

 

 

I personally think that Scott, Fremen, and Glenn add a huge amount to the Helix community. They invest a huge amount of time in unlocking the potential of the Helix and they share a lot of their findings for free. They balance their commercial objectives with a genuine desire to educate, inform, and empower this community. I'm not lazy, lacking of ability or perspective or time. That said, the more I learn (by creating my own patches and studying music etc) the more I want to learn. As good as my patches sound, as well as I can play a great tune, there is always someone out there who can make a better patch and play the tune better. I want to find those people and learn from them........in the case of the aforementioned tutors I can access their creations for the price of a large big mac meal....its a no brainer!

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It's also good to remember that some of them also give you cabinet IRs or "tone match" IRs, which adds to the amount of work.

 

I haven't bought a patch yet, but I understand why people do. Maybe just to see how people go about making patches ans set things up.

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As with synth programming, I enjoy creating my own patches very much. Whether anyone would say I'm good at it or not is an interesting question, but tone is an important part of expressing myself musically, so I'm going to have at it regardless.

 

I don't buy patches to use them as much as to see how other folks approach building them, hear some potentially new sounds, and to some extent, to support some of the people who IMO contribute a lot here. I think of them a lot like the factory patches - ideas for sounds, and/or ideas for Helix manoeuvres. Very few of either end up in regular rotation, but a few do, usually modified, and everything I've seen and heard goes in the hopper for future explorations.

 

In no case have I felt cheated, or regretted buying them, whether I use or learn a lot from them specifically or not. The ones I've bought weren't insanely expensive, and even if all I learned was that the Big Boys don't make stuff that's radically better, for me, or are built radically differently, than what I make myself, that's good to know too.

 

Short version, too late I know... It's all good. Buy patches of you want, not if you don't.

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I don't buy patches to use them as much as to see how other folks approach building them

 

I think this is key.  When I look back over the last couple of years I learned FAR more about best practices and approaches for building patches by watching a video.  MUCH easier, more informative and more efficient than dissecting someone else's patch.

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I'm glad you started this topic because I kind of feel the same way you do. 

 

While I heard great things about Glenn's patches, I too was underwhelmed. 

 

However, after investing in a helix I bit the bullet and purchased the Fremen pack.  The tones were so amazing and so much better than what I could create or find on custom tone, I have to admit, it was wroth every penny as it made my helix sound so much better. 

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I think it says a lot in general about the general spoon feeding requirement of the average Joe. It's that American Idol/X-Factor mentality of wanting it now without the graft for your craft.

 

I'm not against charging for patches because if people are willing pay for them then it's a valid market.

 

Never thought about it before but do they try to claim copyright on the patches they sell? I'm not sure anyone has the right to dictate what you can and cant do with a product of limited parameters. If you create a patch that is the same or very similar to theirs are they then going to pull you into the legal system? The IRs they create are a different matter of course.

 

Regardless, I suppose as with everything else it's 'horses for courses'.

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I think it says a lot in general about the general spoon feeding requirement of the average Joe. It's that American Idol/X-Factor mentality of wanting it now without the graft for your craft.

Amen. Ours is an instant gratification society. Give us an app, a button to push, or a pill to take, and we're off to the races...at least the one saving grace is that there is no magic shortcut for learning how to play one's instrument. Still have to do that the old fashioned way...

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Far be it from me to discourage enterprising souls from making a bit of money for their expertise and hard work but personally I have never been inclined to purchase someone else's presets. I think the point the OP brings up about the sense of community regarding the sharing of free presets is valid. I truly appreciate the efforts of those who have shared their time and effort by offering presets and even IRs in the case of Roscoe5 and jroseberry (probably missed some others) for free, just as I appreciate the efforts of Line6 to provide additional features, effects, and amps without charging a fee. It is an act of laudable generosity and community to take one's own time to develop a good preset, IR, or video to assist your fellow musicians. Is there room for both Line6 and users to design additional assets for the Helix that require purchase, sure there is, as long as I am not expected to jump for joy at the prospect of shelling out hard-earned cash or applaud their money making venture as some form of altruism, much as I may admire their skill and perhaps even use their product.

 

I do think there is a bit of the 'patent' dilemma issue here as well. I don't think people will feel comfortable sharing concepts that were initially advanced in a tweaked preset by Glenn or Fremen, even if that concept or something similar to it would have been stumbled on by others along the way.  That issue of how to handle first discovery when that discovery first surfaces in a purchased preset can be a bit difficult to navigate.

 

A tip 'o the hat to all those who have done their best to add value here with everything from posts to presets and IRs without asking for something in return. This is a great forum!

 

Btw, I do appreciate the more tangible product that Glenn Delaune offers in the form of a protective screen for the Helix.

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I personally think that Scott, Fremen, and Glenn add a huge amount to the Helix community. They invest a huge amount of time in unlocking the potential of the Helix and they share a lot of their findings for free. They balance their commercial objectives with a genuine desire to educate, inform, and empower this community. I'm not lazy, lacking of ability or perspective or time. That said, the more I learn (by creating my own patches and studying music etc) the more I want to learn. As good as my patches sound, as well as I can play a great tune, there is always someone out there who can make a better patch and play the tune better. I want to find those people and learn from them........in the case of the aforementioned tutors I can access their creations for the price of a large big mac meal....its a no brainer!

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I don't besmirch anybody selling patches.

But not only would I probably never buy them, I've never even used anything but a patch I made totally from scratch ever since about 2000 when I started this whole modeling thing.

Maybe I should be selling my patches...

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I can understand the benefits of buying those patches to get a glimpse of how these guys set up their sounds; use routing, model choices, etc. I haven't done so, mostly because I like to figure things out on my own, which is not to say I haven't benefited from much of the great advice that is shared at this forum.

 

The reason you may very well find these patches to be underwhelming should be obvious; they weren't made with your guitar. Even if they were made with a guitar that's the same make and model as yours, the pickups may have been adjusted differently or they used a different string brand and/or gauge... not to mention the percentage of tone that comes from your own hands. I'd guess most of us have experienced the phenomenon of playing through someone else's entire rig (or having someone play ours) and having it sound completely different.

 

I spent a lot of time at the unofficial Line 6 forum, Institute of Noise .com, which was very active when items like the Vetta and Variax were new (these days, it's just an unpopulated Internet watering hole, where a handful of guys just shoot the lollipop about anything). I was active in the Vetta forum there and we used to share a lot of patches via the patch database there; much like Custom Tone. Though I learned a few things from other people's patches, I found the vast majority of them to be unusable for my needs unless (in a handful of cases) I heavily modified them. I eventually stopped checking them out.

 

I guess I'm just saying that I have nothing against people selling their patches... or buying them, for that matter. If it works for you; great! If you're not interested in doing that... well it's not a problem, is it?!

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Interesting... I was there at the Institute of Noise for a while myself,  back when the Vetta was hot stuff.

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Interesting... I was there at the Institute of Noise for a while myself,  back when the Vetta was hot stuff.

I was too. Remember me?????  "Gangsterusa"  I've contributed my free patches there and here on the old Line 6 forums. I've shared my patches starting from the POD XT-Live, the POD X3-Live, the POD-HD, POD HD500, POD HD500X. I've even uploaded free tracks to my upcoming albums on the old Line 6 forums. You new guys probably weren't around then.  I'm talking about 7 and even up to 5 years ago. That's how long I've been using Line 6 products and contributing to the community!! How about you guys?? 

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For me, purchasing Freman's big pack was well worth the price of entry because it gave me workable patchs in styles of music that I otherwise would not have been in.

My personal songwriting is high gain metal. For my style, I know how to dial in my cleans, my gainy patches and my bass tones and have been doing it since the Pod X3.

 

But recently, my prog band was going through the reamping for our album and we notices that for a few bars in a couple of songs we needed a different edge-of-break up sound to round out the tone. Being able to jump to an amp that I otherwise wouldn't use, spend five minutes tweaking a patch to get it right in the pocket and reamp those few bars saved literal hours of work I would have had to do to dial in the right tone to match that particular song section from scratch.

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Personally, I am not into buying patches and I find the custom tone stuff largely excruciating. However, I see nothing wrong in someone offering a product and if someone wants to buy it then that's great, there is always a market for selling just about anything. 

Not only is it true that ones guitar sound delivery system and their very hands and technique will be infinitely different but sort of the whole point the entire issue of the Helix itself is the programming and tweaking aspect. 

If you do not wish to program anything or figure out how to create your own personal presets, then I ponder why you would want such a tool which was created with that in mind. Seems like trying to cop a band's sound or a songs sound might be novel but seems largely more novice or that trapped in a cover band thing and even then if you really try to play exactly like someone else what are you really accomplishing as a musician?

I think one thing should be apparent when playing someone else's tune that you interpret it and add your own touch to it. While I dearly love playing a lot of Jimmy Page's more exotic works they always sound like me and I often play things differently than he would do but the same notes and overall composition but adding my own sense of how I would approach the tune. If you watch Pagey a lot he plays things differently all the time and god how does he sound just like a song when he changes his gear like the rest of us a lot, he doesn't sound the same is how. 

While I can see the value in perhaps using more advanced well designed presets to improve your sense of programming and how things are done, sounding like something had always seemed like the marketing tool to entice young players. Can't say I ever designed a rig to sound like someone else. But get that Les Paul mid position cool tone, a certain overdrive or distortion structure but using it to play my own stuff or twice removed from its origin. 

Now probably when you are going to need to pay for and buy for the Helix are better IRs and finding the ones you like can be a learning experience. I found I was picky on them as I was a preset. I tried hundreds of free ones, and was starting to wonder what everyone was talking about. Got some that Roseberry created and suddenly, oh there is something hear that does make amps sound better. I discovered I love Ribbon mics and I like 4x12 cabs so I went after IRs using that and man has that improved my very best designed presets to the point where I am keeping my Helix. Cheese effects and other's presets, not my thing but if you dig them have at them. 

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I was at institute of noise too. It was far better, and infinitely more helpful than anything L6 officially did back then.
I remember Teleplayer and his first variax transplants, and there was this guy that was always coming with crazy ideas... named "monkey with a wang bar" maybe?

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99.9% of everything I sample off the custom tone thing failed my 2 sec test, just a short sound test and yep that was a waste of time. Mysterious Ways, that one I remember was as if someone had not heard the song much less knew what that filter was. 

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Interesting... I was there at the Institute of Noise for a while myself,  back when the Vetta was hot stuff.

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised to find a few former IONers here, especially since there's very little Line 6 conversation going on there now.

 

I was too. Remember me?????  "Gangsterusa"  I've contributed my free patches there and here on the old Line 6 forums. I've shared my patches starting from the POD XT-Live, the POD X3-Live, the POD-HD, POD HD500, POD HD500X. I've even uploaded free tracks to my upcoming albums on the old Line 6 forums. You new guys probably weren't around then.  I'm talking about 7 and even up to 5 years ago. That's how long I've been using Line 6 products and contributing to the community!! How about you guys?? 

 

I started my Line 6 journey with the AxSys 212 and joined that site when I got a Vetta  in 2002. My handle name was "No Pride." I was mostly hanging at the Vetta forum, but participated in Coffee Talk (still do, with about 8 other people).  Andy Z, father of the site worked for Line 6 for a few years before he was laid off.

 

I was at institute of noise too. It was far better, and infinitely more helpful than anything L6 officially did back then.

I remember Teleplayer and his first variax transplants, and there was this guy that was always coming with crazy ideas... named "monkey with a wang bar" maybe?

 

Monkey was (and I'm sure still is) crazy as a bedbug! It took him over a year to discover the Vetta's edit button, and then only when his son pointed it out to him. LOL! 

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I was too. Remember me?????  "Gangsterusa"  I've contributed my free patches there and here on the old Line 6 forums. I've shared my patches starting from the POD XT-Live, the POD X3-Live, the POD-HD, POD HD500, POD HD500X. I've even uploaded free tracks to my upcoming albums on the old Line 6 forums. You new guys probably weren't around then.  I'm talking about 7 and even up to 5 years ago. That's how long I've been using Line 6 products and contributing to the community!! How about you guys?? 

 

Well said! I suspect what is happening here is a case of "Customer Segmentation".  There are:

 

1. Those who are professional musicians who operate at the top of the pyramid who rightly would not pay money for stuff they already know 

2. Those Advanced amateurs who might buy patches to enhance their learning of the Helix and use the know-how to improve their own

3. Those Intermediate Amateurs who buy the patches to learn how to improve their own patches AND to use out of the box Live (ME!)

4. Those level one digital converts who are just happy to use the acquired patch for everything, full stop.

 

Maybe the OP is in segment number one. I'm in segment 3 and love your work!!!!

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I don't have any problem with people selling patches, in general - especially the people mentioned in this post. They actually have been active here and other places online in interacting with people quite a lot. Personally, I haven't ever paid for patches, just because I've never really felt the need, but I understand why people do it. I've also never really used any patches from CustomTone. I've put a few up at the request of other, but I generally think that it works out best for me to set up my tones from scratch myself.

 

I guess from my perspective the whole patch sharing thing is a relatively small part of what makes this a community. I think the fact that people can come here and have questions answered or leave their two cents on what features they'd like to see is much more important.

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Probably anything that I can add to the discussion has been said, but I'll throw in my .02 worth. 

 

I think it's fair for the people who put a lot of their time into creating patches to charge for them if they choose to.  I think if creating patches is something you don't have the skillset for, or the time, then commercially available patches make sense.  Also if you're new then buying a few patches to learn from would be well worth it if you didn't have an understanding of amps, effects, signal flow, etc.  You could then use the same techniques to build your own patches.  

 

Personally I don't see the point of buying patches for myself.  I've been using Line 6 gear since the AxSys 212 and at this point I know exactly how to get the tone I'm looking for from their gear.  After 20 years I should be able to right :)

 

I could see purchasing IR's or the custom tone IR's that Glenn has done with his boutique pack because that goes past just tweaking parameters.  

 

If I wasn't completely satisfied with my tone I'd consider Glenn's boutique pack.  He had me at the word Dumble :)  As is, I love my tone and like using everything in the box without any IR's.  But one day curiosity may get the better of me...

 

I forgot all about the Institute of Noise.  Spent a lot of time over there back in the Vetta days!

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I buy patches and tweak them, I create patches from scratch... I appreciate both methods.

 

I like having extra opinions/takes on a tone.

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1. People can do what they want

 

2. If you find yourself having philosophical debates about Helix patches then I would suggest a walk in the woods or perhaps a bike ride.

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1. People can do what they want

 

 

Agreed. Everyone's opinions are just that. There is a market for patches, and people who provide them.

 

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Some people have just been looking to use the Helix as a cash cow since the day it was announced.

One in particular, Chad Boston, really grinds my gears. Here we have someone who is not a great reviewer, not a great player, and definitely not known outside of his little Mansonesque helix club who not only crowd funded his gear after he cracked the sads, but charges for patches, sells his own line of helix shirts and charges for access to a forum where you can get "special helix tips and tricks." What pisses me off about people like this is the fact that they have no input in the product itself but are certainly milking it for what its worth, how line 6 isn't dragging people like him over the coals is beyond me as he is making money off and from using their name.
What ever happened to musos helping each other out? Not once have I ever considered charging someone to offer help when they have asked a question about helix on any other forums, and neither have the other users.

Could you imagine, before modelers, asking people for settings they are using on there amps and pedals only to charge them to tell them where to turn their knobs? This is the same thing with helix, only because its digital and can be saved people are of the impression they are some sort of Hackerman wiz so in fact should be able to charge for their time.

I've downloaded a few patches here and there, even bought one, to see where I could improve etc, the one I paid for was in no way more valuable to me than the free patches and not one, paid or free, made me think they would be worth the money.

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I don't begrudge anybody EVER for asking money to do something simple, and yet something that somebody will pay for.

 

There are folks out there who are ready to pay for help or pay for patches or whatever. If they'd do a search, they might find what they are looking for easily, but they don't. That's on them, not on the guy willing to take their money.

 

I, personally, have consulted with a BUNCH of folks on how to use Helix (and before that HD 500) to do what they wanted. I have always said, it's free help (even if I spent an hour on skype, which I have a few times) and I have said when asked (ONLY when asked) if you want to give me a "tip" that's entirely up to you, but I'm not asking for it. And a few times, they have.

Would I do that for money, as in... for a job...? Probably not. Did I take the money? Hell yeah. 

Nothing wrong with what Chad and others are doing at all. Do I need their help? No, so I wouldn't pay for it. Do some others. Apparently, yes.

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2. If you find yourself having philosophical debates about Helix patches then I would suggest a walk in the woods or perhaps a bike ride.

Lmao...

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I don't begrudge anybody EVER for asking money to do something simple, and yet something that somebody will pay for.

 

George Carlin said it best:

 

"If you take two things that have never been nailed together before, and nail them together...some $chmuck will buy it from you". ;)

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1. People can do what they want

 

2. If you find yourself having philosophical debates about Helix patches then I would suggest a walk in the woods or perhaps a bike ride.

 

1- Exactly, and I want to have (what you call) a philosophical debate about Helix patches (if it only was just that)  May I? Please?  :) 

 

2- That's actually funny. I ride my bike everyday, sometimes through a forest. Are you sure you're not spying on me or something?

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George Carlin said it best:

 

"If you take two things that have never been nailed together before, and nail them together...some $chmuck will buy it from you". ;)

 

It's not just that, though.

 

I have a cousin who fixes everything in his cars. He thinks I'm NUTS for not doing that.

 

Well... if I take my brakes apart and then put them back together, I guarantee that I will die the next time I drive that car.

 

We aren't all built with the same capacities.

 

It's like the guys at Best Buy's Geek Squad and stuff like that. 90% or more of what they do is stuff the user can learn them selves if they are smart and savvy enough or strive to become that way.

 

But if everybody knows how to fix stuff on their computer, then those guys are out of work, and they're on unemployment, then they end up getting really angry at the world and they buy a gun and shoot everyone.

 

It's a public safety issue, really...

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Like some of the other forum embers in this thread I started my Line 6 "career" with the AX212 and worked my way through POD XT Live, X3 Live, HD500, HD500X, VAX 700, VAC700, JTV59, JTV89F and finally Helix.  I used custom tone many times over the years to give myself a starting point and have purchased from various people such as Glenn and Chris after seeing demos of the patches etc.  These have been very helpful to me and have given me a jump start into some of the nuances and capabilities of the Helix.  Especially the use of IRs.  Most if not all of these guys offer free patches also with demos of the sounds they are producing,  which quite frankly is what would entice me into paying for the marketed collections.  I can understand the OPs original point and query but I am a little confused at some of the "pushback" against this I am seeing in some of the comments.

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1- Exactly, and I want to have (what you call) a philosophical debate about Helix patches (if it only was just that)  May I? Please?  :) 

 

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