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Any more 2016 Helix Updates?

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Ideascale doesn't just look dead. It looks like its where dreams go to die. 

 

They are still culling ideas from Ideascale. It's just the actual management of all the posts is kind of a pain in the butt from what DI says. There's a few things from there that are going to be in the next update.

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I think a lot of folk have bent over backwards here to answer the OP in this thread even if it was really quite rude in nature. That's because this is actually a GOOD forum overall.

 

I think it's lucky that plain text can be misconstrued and that people understand that certain folk still see online interactions as totally abstract and impersonal.  

 

If the forum denizens were all gathered in a room and and a rookie member stormed in and fired off a hostile volley then continued in that vein, do you think the denizens would regard the entrant as anything other than mouthy trash?

 

Have concerns, ideas, questions and opposing views but deliver them with respect; or expect to receive very little in return.

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I was a corporate trainer as well and also trained in Six Sigma to identify problems with companies all the way down from the top to the bottom when it comes to business processes and streamlining. The metrics I track led me to my conclusion. 

 

You might not like my approach but it works.

 

So your a team player eh?. Then you know by that experience you need to "work" with people (not by pointing out their faults or failures so BLUNTLY, but by getting them to look at the issues in a different and better way). Thats what all good "bosses", trainers and idea makers do man. Brow beating here doesn't work well with others. I know ;). So excuse me if thats how I come across when I say the way you act, you wouldn't last long on any kind of yellow belt or black belt team, or any team for that matter. So no, your approach doesn't work as you stated, if its done in the way you are doing it. It just tends to lollipop people off. Like Silver stated, you get more with honey, than with vinegar here, or anywhere. Every one hates a squeaky wheel even if it does need and get the grease bud. No one here is against improving what we have and so these ideas are indeed welcome, but slamming us with innuendos doesn't work.  If you could just take that Helix/MUSIC passion and turn it into a more positive and friendly way, you would indeed be a force to be Reckoned with. Otherwise, your just another bright punk with an attitude.  B) 

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1. is correct. Although they do share SOME things with some folks who are testing their products ahead of time, we don't have a full roadmap.

2. is incorrect. I and others (some in this thread) do indeed beta test their firmware.

3. is incorrect. They may not be regular enough for your tastes, but they are regular.

 

Thanks for your response.

 

Was totally unaware that non-Line 6 Beta testers existed. Thanks for that tidbit. I guess I should have said "public" Beta testing.

 

Also, what is the release cycle for Helix updates? How is it regular?

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Thanks for your response.

 

Was totally unaware that non-Line 6 Beta testers existed. Thanks for that tidbit. I guess I should have said "public" Beta testing.

 

Also, what is the release cycle for Helix updates? How is it regular?

It is a public beta test as it is not conducted in-house. Open beta testing is what you are suggesting but not sure that's a great idea due to the unknown experience levels if users. Having experienced consumers put updates through the mill is advantageous to less experienced or beginner users getting involved.

 

Have a look at the updates from the last year and what was in the updates. Was it poor in terms of timeline or content?

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So the 2.10 update is coming out in 2016 rather than New Years.

 

There seems to be some conflict with what Line6 deems as steady. Which is why I asked.

 

So Yamaha is acting more like a holdings company. They never sell you but they expect you to turn a profit. 

 

I like your iceberg pic but eventually the iceberg melts away and you are left but nothing but seawater. 

As with all technology

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It is a public beta test as it is not conducted in-house. Open beta testing is what you are suggesting but not sure that's a great idea due to the unknown experience levels if users. Having experienced consumers put updates through the mill is advantageous to less experienced or beginner users getting involved.

 

Have a look at the updates from the last year and what was in the updates. Was it poor in terms of timeline or content?

 

If you want an idea of what open beta testing is like, just look at all the people that ran into problems on the last update by not following the directions for installation.  User error is NOT a bug.....  ;)

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If you want an idea of what open beta testing is like, just look at all the people that ran into problems on the last update by not following the directions for installation.  User error is NOT a bug.....   ;)

 

I agree that user error is not a bug and I also think that opening beta tests to EVERYONE might well result in a flood of false error reports, people screwing up their presets, install problems, floods of negative comments on the boards, etc..     But.... part of me says, go ahead and release beta versions of the software to the larger community for those who want to take their chances. Other companies including L6 do it so there is precedent. One of the earlier Helix firmware versions was initially released as a beta version.

 

There are so many more  users with so many more alternate configurations and methods for using the Helix that the chances of catching actual bugs could potentially be way higher (providing L6 could filter out the false bug reports). That way the firmware you have spent months waiting for has less chance of arriving with bugs that the relatively small beta testing community simply had no way of catching (through no fault of their own, their sample size just isn't large enough). I am sure there are plenty of folks who would be strongly opposed to doing things this way for some very good reasons but I am not convinced the net effect would not be a gain. Line6 and our beta testers (most of whom contribute to the forum) do a fine job, perhaps even an an amazing job, of catching most bugs but perhaps a larger beta test community would reduce the number down even further, contribute some good ideas on how to better implement the new features earlier in the process, and mean that those months spent developing were maximally efficient and that an official firmware release had the highest possible chance of arriving bug-free.

 

I am in no way challenging the way beta testing is done, L6 may well have determined that the current process is the best method and be correct in that assumption.  I hope this post does not sound critical of the way they are doing things in any way. One possible pitfall for any company opening a beta test up to a large community would be that the beta caused a catastrophic problem (like a frozen firmware update that could not be remedied by the user) that caused thousands of people to have to send in their devices for factory intervention, or, as mentioned earlier cause needless bad publicity. Hopefully these sorts of problems would be sorted out in alpha tests though.

 

Another good reason I can see for not releasing the beta to the wider public is the sheer amount of moaning and griping that would occur on the forum as users realized that their pet feature was not going to be appearing in the upcoming update. Of course that happens anyway already but I could see it reaching epic proportions and potentially impacting sales. There is also the issue of giving an edge to your competitors by giving them a huge headstart on what you are planning to release, Heh, the more I think about it the more negatives I see but there are some potential advantages as well.  :)

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I actually think the term 'public beta' is an oxymoron. If it's not already a quite robust piece of software then imho it's not ready for public release at all. And if it is already a quite robust piece of software that's ready for any kind of public release then is it really still a beta? Does a release finally only become non-beta when it is 100% bug free? Is a company using its customer base as public beta testers as long as bugs continue to be found? Where do you draw the line with the terminology?

 

After a certain point it's just semantics. The 'beta' v2.1 that is now 'soaking' is a very stable set of firmware and editor. Is it completely bug-free? Almost certainly not, though I haven't found any new bugs. If a new bug (or even a few) is/are found after public release, does that mean it's still somehow a beta release? Depends on how you define beta I guess.

 

I think Line 6 thinks it's ready to go public, pending something unforeseen in the next few days. It will be released 'soon', and whether or not anyone considers it a beta release I guess is up to them based on their own definition of beta. So those who would like to feel included in a public beta, you can feel that way if you wish - especially if you find and report a new bug!

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Personally my advise to everyone on open BETA updates is, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it...."

 

The big problem with open BETA programs is that it's going into the hands of people that are unprepared to be involved in a potentially problematic update.  I remember a few years ago a friend of mine decided he wanted to download a BETA version of a new Windows release.  He did this in spite of not having a backup plan in place for his computer and ended up losing a considerable amount of his files.  Of course he blamed Microsoft for it, but the reality is he agreed to take on an operating system that wasn't fully cooked yet without any significant knowledge or plan to protect himself, so it was really his own fault.

 

The truth is, some of the most likely people to get involved in a BETA release are the one's least prepared and/or capable of dealing with the potential issues simply because they just can't wait to get their hands on it.  That's probably fine if you're not gigging with it, but it's a disaster waiting to happen if your dependent on it for shows.  Unfortunately some folks can't be counted on to be sensible, then guess who gets the blame???

 

As for myself, I wouldn't take on an open BETA under any circumstances.  The truth is, I'm typically one of the last people to download full releases until I'm confident it's stable.  This paid off in my case with the last update as I never downloaded 2.0 and only upgraded to 2.01 once it proved itself stable.

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So your a team player eh?. Then you know by that experience you need to "work" with people (not by pointing out their faults or failures so BLUNTLY, but by getting them to look at the issues in a different and better way). Thats what all good "bosses", trainers and idea makers do man. Brow beating here doesn't work well with others. I know ;). So excuse me if thats how I come across when I say the way you act, you wouldn't last long on any kind of yellow belt or black belt team, or any team for that matter. So no, your approach doesn't work as you stated, if its done in the way you are doing it. It just tends to lollipop people off. Like Silver stated, you get more with honey, than with vinegar here, or anywhere. Every one hates a squeaky wheel even if it does need and get the grease bud. No one here is against improving what we have and so these ideas are indeed welcome, but slamming us with innuendos doesn't work.  If you could just take that Helix/MUSIC passion and turn it into a more positive and friendly way, you would indeed be a force to be Reckoned with. Otherwise, your just another bright punk with an attitude.  B) 

I am pretty sure you are a non-confrontational person. And you have never been turned down for being nice. I have seen projects die because people were too busy not saying what needs to be said. Out loud. Pink Elephant in the room. A good trainer is not just a boss. Steve Jobs favorite thing to do was to confront people about things he wasn't happy with and that is how we got Apple. I've lasted pretty long on yellow and a black belt teams btw. I am pretty sure if you were trained in Generational Diversity you would know that people don't always come in happy little bundles of conformity. Not everyone takes everything said personal either. If you noticed that no one that knew what the truth was has made any personal attacks. Only the ones that wanted to feel they were injured did. People that know what they are doing don't get bent out of shape. They applied the knowledge they had. They offered an explanation and they moved on without injury to their pride knowing that if I didn't like the answer it doesn't even matter because they provided what useful knowledge they could. 

 

And someone that said this is not the place should know that people don't always use the tools you give them the way you expect it. That's definitely something you learn from Support. You could consider my entire post a feature request if you really wanted to.

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They are still culling ideas from Ideascale. It's just the actual management of all the posts is kind of a pain in the butt from what DI says. There's a few things from there that are going to be in the next update.

 

I saw that note about the update. I'll be looking forward to it.

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I agree that user error is not a bug and I also think that opening beta tests to EVERYONE might well result in a flood of false error reports, people screwing up their presets, install problems, floods of negative comments on the boards, etc..     But.... part of me says, go ahead and release beta versions of the software to the larger community for those who want to take their chances. Other companies including L6 do it so there is precedent. One of the earlier Helix firmware versions was initially released as a beta version.

 

There are so many more  users with so many more alternate configurations and methods for using the Helix that the chances of catching actual bugs could potentially be way higher (providing L6 could filter out the false bug reports). That way the firmware you have spent months waiting for has less chance of arriving with bugs that the relatively small beta testing community simply had no way of catching (through no fault of their own, their sample size just isn't large enough). I am sure there are plenty of folks who would be strongly opposed to doing things this way for some very good reasons but I am not convinced the net effect would not be a gain. Line6 and our beta testers (most of whom contribute to the forum) do a fine job, perhaps even an an amazing job, of catching most bugs but perhaps a larger beta test community would reduce the number down even further, contribute some good ideas on how to better implement the new features earlier in the process, and mean that those months spent developing were maximally efficient and that an official firmware release had the highest possible chance of arriving bug-free.

 

I am in no way challenging the way beta testing is done, L6 may well have determined that the current process is the best method and be correct in that assumption.  I hope this post does not sound critical of the way they are doing things in any way. One possible pitfall for any company opening a beta test up to a large community would be that the beta caused a catastrophic problem (like a frozen firmware update that could not be remedied by the user) that caused thousands of people to have to send in their devices for factory intervention, or, as mentioned earlier cause needless bad publicity. Hopefully these sorts of problems would be sorted out in alpha tests though.

 

Another good reason I can see for not releasing the beta to the wider public is the sheer amount of moaning and griping that would occur on the forum as users realized that their pet feature was not going to be appearing in the upcoming update. Of course that happens anyway already but I could see it reaching epic proportions and potentially impacting sales. There is also the issue of giving an edge to your competitors by giving them a huge headstart on what you are planning to release, Heh, the more I think about it the more negatives I see but there are some potential advantages as well.  :)

 

I don't know that Line 6 has completely closed the door on public betas, but I think one reason they haven't done much of them simply comes down to resources. I think people always assume Line 6 is bigger than it is, and that they have huge teams of programmers working on stuff. That's generally not the case. So I think it could quickly become unmanageable for them to be getting hundreds of reports in and digging through them. Also, the way that I've experienced beta testing with them is that it's a very dynamic process with developers emailing testers frequently, and there were some times when I got three or four firmware builds in a week. So, with a public beta, most users probably are going to be willing to update at that pace, so you would have the case where people might be using outdated firmware, even it is a few days outdated.

 

I also think that Line 6 is in a different position as far as the market goes than say Fractal or Kemper. I think that for the most part an Axe FX or Kemper user may be a little more sophisticated than the average Helix user. Not saying that there aren't those types of Helix users, but just because Line 6 is bigger brand, there are people who aren't even necessarily aware of brands like Fractal and Kemper who may use a Helix. I know that's kind of hard to believe, but I have actually met such people. I'm still amazed that there are people who get their gear information from Guitar Center... Anyway, I think Line 6 probably wants to very careful about not creating unneeded confusion if it doesn't need to.

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I really think the more you educate your users on a product the more likely they are to use advanced features. Not everyone that uses the Kemper or the AxeFX knows what they are doing for sure but you have to always make sure there is something there for those who want to learn more.

 

I'm not one of those people that fears bricking my device so I do beta updates and test features if they are relevant to my interests. As long as betas are setup behind a qualification wall you really don't have to worry too much about the public. Betas attract people that like to see change. If you want to make sure to keep out the people that don't read user's guides you just have to make sure they agree to be a tester and that they understand the rules.

 

Between Guitar Center, Sweetwater, and local music scenes, there is always alot of talk about Line6 products.

 

Houston has 5 locations. That is more than in any other city here. Texas has 50 stores. There are 3 of them that I have spent quite alot of time in. And I regularly get updates from them and Sweetwater. 

 

I also work for IATSE and work stage, conventions and theaters. I do backline support and I've talked to touring crews and conventions about Line6 products as well.

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I don't know that Line 6 has completely closed the door on public betas, but I think one reason they haven't done much of them simply comes down to resources. I think people always assume Line 6 is bigger than it is, and that they have huge teams of programmers working on stuff. That's generally not the case. So I think it could quickly become unmanageable for them to be getting hundreds of reports in and digging through them. Also, the way that I've experienced beta testing with them is that it's a very dynamic process with developers emailing testers frequently, and there were some times when I got three or four firmware builds in a week. So, with a public beta, most users probably are going to be willing to update at that pace, so you would have the case where people might be using outdated firmware, even it is a few days outdated.

....

 

Yep, I totally get it, two more very good reasons why it might not be a good idea in most firmware update scenarios - resources required to sort through and filter bug reports from that many people, many of which might be incorrect, and the additional possibility of obsolete bug reports that are no longer pertinent since the latest build. The obsoleted bug reports issue can be mitigated to some extent by simply attaching the build version to the bug report and sending alerts to users when the build changes.

 

 

.....

I also think that Line 6 is in a different position as far as the market goes than say Fractal or Kemper. I think that for the most part an Axe FX or Kemper user may be a little more sophisticated than the average Helix user. Not saying that there aren't those types of Helix users, but just because Line 6 is bigger brand, there are people who aren't even necessarily aware of brands like Fractal and Kemper who may use a Helix. I know that's kind of hard to believe, but I have actually met such people. I'm still amazed that there are people who get their gear information from Guitar Center... Anyway, I think Line 6 probably wants to very careful about not creating unneeded confusion if it doesn't need to.

 

 

I also agree with this point, my only comment would be that the fact that Line6 may well cover a wider range of users from the extremely technically sophisticated to the relative Luddite can sometimes actually be a good justification for more public beta testing as the developers at L6 and the beta testers tend to be at the technically sophisticated end of the spectrum. I have seen this in my own software development career, where an unsophisticated user is able to find a bug within five minutes that every tester has missed over months of testing because a novice approaches the system in a way that a more knowledgeable user would never think to do. These novice users can also expose features that are lacking ease of use or intuitive implementations as well. Not saying these benefits override the challenges you have detailed to public betas just trying to point out that sometimes a wide spectrum of users including the ones who seem to be able to break every piece of software they touch out of sheer ignorance or lack of familiarity with the system can actually be beneficial to a beta test.  :)

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 You could consider my entire post a feature request if you really wanted to.

 

I have considered your post. A feature request? Would you like the stump your standing on included?  I found your transmitter is keyed up and the receiver is shorted to ground. The arrogance is astounding and matched only by your inability to use the tools (for everyone here) given without getting crap on them just for lollipops and grins. You know, theres a way to voice your views without being destructive, and yes being nice is usually the way to agreements being made.  OTOH you seem very astute for not being able to listen and learn, I grant you that much. You must have done this at some point. Oh Ive suffered from that as well so you are not alone my friend. Experience says to me that comes from knowing you know more than everyone else does. Sigh, so be it. I would very much enjoy having you with me in a fox hole fighting the enemy, because they wouldn't stand a chance! :lol: And then, after the carnage,  never seeing each other again. Respectfully parting ways of course.  ;)

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Do you always cry this much in public? I am pretty sure I can call a psychiatrist for you to get a prescription. 

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I also think that Line 6 is in a different position as far as the market goes than say Fractal or Kemper. I think that for the most part an Axe FX or Kemper user may be a little more sophisticated than the average Helix user.

 

I don't think you can judge the intelligence of those by what processor they use. If that were really the case, then all PC users are just stupid compared to Mac users. 

And you know what the PC group would then think about that... The same as I would.  ;)

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Do you always cry this much in public? I am pretty sure I can call a psychologist for you to get a prescription. 

I have no need for a humility pill , but I can send you some.  :P

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Do you always cry this much in public? I am pretty sure I can call a psychologist for you to get a prescription. 

 

That psychologist will get jailed for prescribing anything....maybe you meant psychiatrist? :D

 

Let's move on guys...

 

In fact let's get back to not caring? Who remembers not caring and caring about not caring? #carefest2016

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Let's move on guys...

 

Agreed- Need Oil for my compass and Im good to go! 

 

 

LOL Phil!

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....

 

Let's move on guys...

 

In fact let's get back to not caring? Who remembers not caring and caring about not caring? #carefest2016

 

"Does anyone remember laughter?" (Led Zeppelin 'Stairway To Heaven')  :P

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That psychologist will get jailed for prescribing anything....maybe you meant psychiatrist? :D

 

Let's move on guys...

 

In fact let's get back to not caring? Who remembers not caring and caring about not caring? #carefest2016

Pepperidge farm remembers.

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So what's wrong with a pc?

Nothing. Just using an example above as to why one group using X is no different (other than tastes and choice) than the other group using Y. 

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Forget the effort in developing new models and features for a second—testing new models and features is a long, arduous process. And we can't just test the new stuff; the whole system needs an über-detailed, soup-to-nuts analysis, both standalone and with the editor on every supported Mac/Windows OS. Any tiny change should and does require weeks of testing.

 

Why don't you just model the human ear and then you can automate your testing?  A few parameters for lobe size, piercings and tinnitus levels and BOOM, done.

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Why don't you just model the human ear and then you can automate your testing?  A few parameters for lobe size, piercings and tinnitus levels and BOOM, done.

 

;)

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Why don't you just model the human ear and then you can automate your testing? A few parameters for lobe size, piercings and tinnitus levels and BOOM, done.

Who's ear(s), though?

 

Frankly, the possibility of having to endure threads where we debate the relative merits of the "Pavarotti" ear model vs. "Paul McCartney", or Dr. Dre vs. Eminem...is too depressing to contemplate. ;)

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Who's ear(s), though?

 

Frankly, the possibility of having to endure threads where we debate the relative merits of the "Pavarotti" ear model vs. "Paul McCartney", or Dr. Dre vs. Eminem...is too depressing to contemplate. ;)

 

I say we model Horton's ear, he can even hear a 'Who'. 

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