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roscoe5

IR Test - Mesa Recto 212, Multiple Mics, Tube Amp/Cab Interaction, Tube Power Amp Tone Neutralized

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From info and research from the IR Deep Dive/Impedance Curve thread I posted, I am testing a new (to me) IR method. Thanks to all of the info in the Fractal community and the contributions from @CabIR here on the Helix forum (and Fourier transforms :) ) .

Helix seems to lack some of the speaker/amp interaction modeling and controls of Fractal Axe II, but the Helix amp models themselves are phenomenal. IMO baking some of that interaction back into the IR can improve the realism for Helix. As we have covered on some threads here, and as can be seen in some of the factory Helix presets as well as 3rd party, parametric eq with specific settings between amp/cab blocks or after the cab can also simulate the resonance of the cabs resulting from tube amp/cab interaction.

The goal of this exercise was to capture the linear and time based response of tube amp & speaker cab interaction (impedance curve, etc.) that is lost when a solid state amp is used for capture, but remove the tonal coloration of the tube amp itself.

This approach should yield a better feeling IR than ones created with solid state amps, but not as colored as some made with tube amps.

I chose the AKG D112 (1in from the grille slightly off center) for its wider frequency response, which is a good start for the Mesa Recto 212 cab. IMO, it is easier to trim the frequencies off using the hi/lo cuts in the IR block than to add them back with EQ. It makes this Celestion Vintage 30 based IR pretty versatile for cleans. This also leaves a lot of tonal control to the amp model controls and guitar tone knobs.

I'll probably do more tweaking and more mics, positions, speakers and IR mixes, but I want to stew on this one for a while. I think it accomplished what I was after for a first pass.

MesRec212_D112_1in_1.wav

MesRec212_D112_15in_2.wav (smoother, not as bright)

MesRec212_D112_1in_OA.wav 

MesRec212_D57_1in.wav 

MesRec212_D57_1in_OA.wav 

MesRec212_D57_2in_OA_Enh.wav

MesRec212_D58_1in.wav 

MesRec212_D58_1in_OA.wav 

MesRec212_D609_1in.wav 

 

Mic Mixes posted!!! New!!!  So much smoother and fuller than the single mics alone.  Changing out my FOH IR with one of these.

 

MesRec212_MX_57_57OA.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_58.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_58_112_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_58_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_112.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_58_112.wav

MesRec212_MX_58_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_112_57_58.wav

MesRec212_MX_112_57_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_112_58_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_112_609.wav

 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mm1y9x4s75d9oh4/AABljWBWiNEzDlA3_rgB6XNka?dl=0

For the really distorted high gain stuff (i.e. Bogner Uberschall), you may want to pull the high cut down to around 8-10,000 Hz and the low cut up to 80 Hz since the AKG D112 has extended low and high frequency response.

http://www.akg.com/pro/p/d112mkii

Here is a good video I refer to often comparing an SM57 and D112 on a Mesa Recto 412 cab. I think this IR with the Helix Cali Rectifire amp (gain 7, presence 6) model almost nails the AKG D112 tone in this video.



Here's a clip I made of the same (approximate) riff with Helix Cali Rectifire amp model through the IR with only a tiny bit of room reverb. I actually left the low and high cuts on the IR block off. No other eq or effects are in the patch. Apologies for the dead strings and ringing trem on that PRS.

https://soundcloud.com/michael-potts-995394155/mesrec212-d112-1in-1-clip
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I'll definitely give this a shot tomorrow....I just saw the post as I was going to bed. Thanks!!!

 

Chappie

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The Helix forum's resident genius and mad scientist roscoe5 back in the lab. Very cool things you have been working on lately. The info from the Fractal community was quite detailed and made for an interesting if somewhat overwhelming read. Please keep us posted as you find new and improved ways to EQ and leverage IRs and native Helix amps/cabs. Thanks for all your hard work on this stuff and also for posting your results!  :)

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Been jamming on this for a few days. It's working really well for Fender cleans and Brit crunch too. The Helix Soldano trio and Brit 2204 regular and mod sound really good through it. That AKG D112 mic really opens up the highs and lows.

 

It's killing me not to have time to make some more of these. Ah well, maybe Santa will bring me an AKG C214 :)

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Been jamming on this for a few days. It's working really well for Fender cleans and Brit crunch too. The Helix Soldano trio and Brit 2204 regular and mod sound really good through it. That AKG D112 mic really opens up the highs and lows.

 

It's killing me not to have time to make some more of these. Ah well, maybe Santa will bring me an AKG C214 :)

 

I'm going to play around with it over the holidays. Thanks!

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I was able to briefly test the ir by replacing one of my other ir's in a plexi patch that I really like. It sounded good but was much brighter than what I had in the patch. I think I'll try it in a two cab setup when I get some time. Thanks for being the mad scientist of ir's!!!!

 

Chappie

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Thanks, Roscoe5.  I really like the sound of this IR, but compared to the OwnHammer Mesa IR I have (and other cabinets) it is very trebly - just dropping it into the same patch with no other changes.  Otherwise, sounds great.  I'm using the ANGL Meteor @ default settings if that matters, and IR lo/hi cuts at 72 and 6kHz.  Still very trebly, though, almost piercing to my ears.  Not sure if that was the intent or not.

 

I would definitely use this IR, I like it that much.  But for me, at least, I'll need to tame the very highs with something more aggressive than an IR hi-cut.

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Actually, dropping in a parametric eq with a narrow q and sweeping, the problem frequency to my ears appears around 2.6kHz.  Resetting the q to .7 and dropping the gain there to about -3.0dB seems to take care of most of it.

 

I also noticed, as compared to the OH IRs I have, the OH's appear to have a lot more low end/body.  Not trying to be critical at all, please don't take it that way.  Just comparing to what I'm used to in the OH IRs and provide some feedback.

 

All in all, I like it.  Nice job!

 

 

EDIT: Actually, in fact, maybe I'm easy, but with the eq above, this is quickly becoming one of my favorites. :)

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Thanks for trying it out guys!!! I really appreciate the feedback!

 

I agree, it is super trebley.  I think it's the nature of that AKG mic near the center of the cap.  the YouTube video of it was pretty trebley too.  I ended up pulling the high cut even even lower to around 5kHz.

 

I think I will keep it around for the cleans though.

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I had the same experience as several others here.  It sounded very trebly and thin in comparison to the OwnHammer version of the cabinet using a combo SM57 and ribbon mic.

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Attached the magnitude, FYI :)

 

 

 

That is cool!

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Attached the magnitude, FYI :)

 

 

 

 

I had the same experience as several others here.  It sounded very trebly and thin in comparison to the OwnHammer version of the cabinet using a combo SM57 and ribbon mic.

 

 

That is cool!

 

 

Holy crap guys, thanks or the test drives and comments!!!

 

And thanks for the plot CabIR!!!

 

I just made one more with some adjustments to smooth it out.  A tiny bit more off the cone and a tiny bit back.  Dang what a difference slight adjustments in mic position make.

 

MesRec212_D112_15in_2.wav NEW!!! (smoother, not as bright)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mm1y9x4s75d9oh4/AABljWBWiNEzDlA3_rgB6XNka?dl=0

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I went ahead and did a few more mics, SM57, SM58 (got idea from Ola Englund video), and Sennheiser e609.

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Very interesting and awesome! I've been a professional live engineer (as well as a guitarist and fiddle player) for around 20 years and have never considered a d112 on chunky guitar. Duh! Of course! I'm going to have to try a 52a for some scooped sounds also!

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I went ahead and did a few more mics, SM57, SM58 (got idea from Ola Englund video), and Sennheiser e609.

 

Again, these are very very nice.  My favorite is in this group is the SM57 Off-Axis.

 

It's actually very close to Fremen's HG (high gain) IRs - he has a 1-10 numbering for different eq's, but I found it very close to his LX TDR HG3 or thereabouts.

 

Very nice job.  Thank you!  Merry IR Christmas. :)

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Mic Mixes posted!!! New!!!  So much smoother and fuller than the single mics alone.  Changing out my FOH IR with one of these.

 

MesRec212_MX_57_57OA.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_58.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_58_112_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_58_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_112.wav

MesRec212_MX_57_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_58_112.wav

MesRec212_MX_58_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_112_57_58.wav

MesRec212_MX_112_57_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_112_58_609.wav

MesRec212_MX_112_609.wav

 

I just purchased the Ownhammer Cali Duo pack yesterday thanks to Jon Symons post here on the Helix forum. Some of my favorite ones were the mixes.  I mixed mine in Helix and really like them, but I didn't want to eat up all of that processing power and routing space with two 2048 sample IR blocks in parallel.  So I mixed them down in the DAW.

 

This v5 version of IR's are made using a modified Fractal DI method 2 with the SV HD100.  Of course I don't have an AxeFx to take advantage of all of the automation and creation utilities.  I don't think the AxeFX will give you a WAV file anyway.  I had to get creative with tools I have :)

 

http://www.fractalaudio.com/downloads/manuals/axe-fx-2/Axe-Fx-II-ir-capture.pdf

 

Again, these are positioned near the speaker cap edge for a live-application-type micing and have a lot of highs.  I chose to address highs in Helix with the IR block high cut rather than make a bunch of IR's of different positions.

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I must say though, no matter how I slice and dice my Mesa 212, it's not a 412.  The Ownhammer California Duo Mesa 412 Traditional cab is really nice.

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The reason is that you get different acoustic coupling from four speakers and their cabinet than you will with two. You'd think that would be overwhelmed by positioning the mic so close to an individual speaker, but there could be some reasons it doesn't:

  1. Individual speakers interact as a whole inside a cabinet rather than isolated individuals
  2. Acoustic coupling based on surface area of the speakers and room volume could impact the tone of an individual speaker
  3. They're simply different speakers - different models of the same speaker will often sound different. When recording a cabinet, recording engineers will often explore mic'ing different speakers in the same cabinet to see which one sounds best

This article is pretty interesting: http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html.

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Great article, thanks!  I skimmed through it last night and will dive into some parts of it later.

 

But without getting into the fine details, I hear the common "thump" differences in the physical Mesa 212 & 412 cabs as well as just about any IR of the two from OH, 3Sigma or even the Amplitube 4 Mesa cabs.

 

The AKG D112 mic did give a bit more of that 412 thump to that 212 cab.  It pairs really well in the 212 SM57 + D112 IR mix.  I'm pretty satisfied with that when I need more thump on a preset.

 

I have found some very nice OH Cali Duo 412 cab mixes in the Quick Start folder as well.  I think I am all set for a while.  It was a good exercise overall.  Running back through the IR process again with specific goals on my own cab helped me understand what I was trying to achieve and appreciate what was available in the OH Cali Duo pack.

 

On another note, I also picked up the OH Marshall checker 412 cab with two greenaback speaker types, plus the EV-L and V30 speaker expansion packs.  What a great cab as well!  EV's in that cab are great for clean to metal!

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