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Upgrade then restore bundle inserts old factory presets?


chrisvermaak
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Upgraded this morning. Backed up the Bundle (not setlist) That means also the factory presets?

 

Then after upgrade I played around a bit listening to the rebuilt (now new factory presets). Used some pedal switching on effects etc. Then I decided to restore my backed up BUNDLE. When I did that I noted that the factory presets changed (footswitches went off as per the original preset). 

 

Now my question is that if you restore the bundle then do you overwrite the factory presets (assumedly latest version with the latest upgrade) to the previous upgrade.

 

I assumed this must have happened so I then exported setlist only. Then did Globals reset again to rebuild again the factory presets to newest version then restored the setlist back to get my presets.

 

Am I wrong in assuming that restoring the bundle will replace the newest factory presets with the previous version factory presets? 

 

If not then maybe the instructions should emphasize that one must backup the setlist for restoration and not restore a previous bundle?

 

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Bundle, by definition, is a backup of all presets so yes, it overwrites all presets including factory presets.  That's the nature of ANY kind of backup/restore operation.  If you don't want to overwrite factory presets then do a setlist backup or a backup of individual presets.

 

I would think that's pretty obvious.  If not, maybe they can document that along with how to turn on your computer.

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Now my question is that if you restore the bundle then do you overwrite the factory presets (assumedly latest version with the latest upgrade) to the previous upgrade.

 

Exactly... and I had found this out myself as well, I don't think it is clear either... I got the Helix on the first shipment and the very first FW update I did the same thing and everybody was saying how the presets sounded so much better now that the amps had the right cab mike and the new factory preset were good and well I finally figured it out too...

 

They should change the wording in the FW update to explain that the bundle will overwrite the new factory presets so you should just save the set lists separately (I had to do the whole process over after saving each set list) and if that's the case why even have the bundle option... makes no sense at all. also I thought at first the bundle saved the IR's too, doesn't it imply everything?!?!? 

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I think the best path with updates would be automatic backups by the update process of everything, bundle, setlists, IRs, and global settings. Short of that, nothing should be taken for granted and nothing is obvious to everyone. Some people learn the score by reading the forums but not everyone has the time or inclination for that. If it were obvious what a bundle backup included then a bundle might include IRs and be able to restore them to their correct slots, as well global settings (a bundle includes neither IRs nor global settings).

 

The firmware instructions have to be absolutely clear and it would not hurt to at least pop up a dialog box when you went to update your firmware that asked "Have you backed up a bundle, your setlists, your presets, your IRs, and taken note of which slots the IRs are in and what your global settings are?". This would be especially helpful to new users. Pretty wordy i know but those are essentially the tasks you want to execute before every firmware update.

 

I have been reading the forum since soon after the Helix appeared so I have been lucky and not had any mishaps with backups and updates but I think the process could be a lot better. For what its worth Line6 has indicated that they are working on improving it in the future and the release notes certainly have improved dramatically since the first firmware update. In Line6's defense they did include the instruction below in the release notes from the 2.11 firmware update. The note would have been clearer however with an explicit warning that a bundle restore would overwrite the Factory and Template lists in addition to everything else.  

 

From the 2.11 release notes:

NOTE: You may want to back up individual Setlists so you can restore them to empty setlists without affecting the 2.11 factory presets.

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Bundle, by definition, is a backup of all presets so yes, it overwrites all presets including factory presets.  That's the nature of ANY kind of backup/restore operation.  If you don't want to overwrite factory presets then do a setlist backup or a backup of individual presets.

 

I would think that's pretty obvious.  If not, maybe they can document that along with how to turn on your computer.

 

 

Exactly... and I had found this out myself as well, I don't think it is clear either... I got the Helix on the first shipment and the very first FW update I did the same thing and everybody was saying how the presets sounded so much better now that the amps had the right cab mike and the new factory preset were good and well I finally figured it out too...

 

They should change the wording in the FW update to explain that the bundle will overwrite the new factory presets so you should just save the set lists separately (I had to do the whole process over after saving each set list) and if that's the case why even have the bundle option... makes no sense at all. also I thought at first the bundle saved the IR's too, doesn't it imply everything?!?!? 

 

 

I think the best path with updates would be automatic backups by the update process of everything, bundle, setlists, IRs, and global settings. Short of that, nothing should be taken for granted and nothing is obvious to everyone. Some people learn the score by reading the forums but not everyone has the time or inclination for that. If it were obvious what a bundle backup included then a bundle might include IRs and be able to restore them to their correct slots, as well global settings (a bundle includes neither IRs nor global settings).

 

The firmware instructions have to be absolutely clear and it would not hurt to at least pop up a dialog box when you went to update your firmware that asked "Have you backed up a bundle, your setlists, your presets, your IRs, and taken note of which slots the IRs are in and what your global settings are?". This would be especially helpful to new users. Pretty wordy i know but those are essentially the tasks you want to execute before every firmware update.

 

I have been reading the forum since soon after the Helix appeared so I have been lucky and not had any mishaps with backups and updates but I think the process could be a lot better. For what its worth Line6 has indicated that they are working on improving it in the future and the release notes certainly have improved dramatically since the first firmware update. In Line6's defense they did include the instruction below in the release notes from the 2.11 firmware update. The note would have been clearer however with an explicit warning that a bundle restore would overwrite the Factory and Template lists in addition to everything else.  

 

From the 2.11 release notes:

NOTE: You may want to back up individual Setlists so you can restore them to empty setlists without affecting the 2.11 factory presets.

 

 

Well then it is not as obvious as Dunedin Dragon states

His sarcasm though is very obvious

 

Ok so how do I backup the setlists and IR's and Global settings. Each then must have an individual file? Hope this does not lead to another obvious sarcastic retort though. Thought the forum is where stupid idiots like me may ask a question. My question can also be ignored if it is so totally stupendous obvious. 

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Well then it is not as obvious as Dunedin Dragon states

His sarcasm though is very obvious

 

Ok so how do I backup the setlists and IR's and Global settings. Each then must have an individual file? Hope this does not lead to another obvious sarcastic retort though. Thought the forum is where stupid idiots like me may ask a question. My question can also be ignored if it is so totally stupendous obvious. 

 

Backup a setlist with the Editor using the 'Export Setlist' link. You can also highlight all of your presets in a setlist and hit 'Export' to have them backup as individual files all at the same time. IRs are backed up from the IR tab in the Editor. Take a screenshot so you know which slots to restore them to. Alternatively you can number them. Global settings you have to write down or remember.

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HI HonestOpinion

Thank you so much for your assistance. 

 

But I have a suspicion that restoring the 2.0 backed up bundle kind of scrapped my updated 2.11 firmware factory presets. I maybe imagine but now the factory preset does not sound so nice on AC30 (factory preset 2). Even though I did the reboot 9+10 to rebuild the presets. I think it just rebuilt the installed 2.0 presets from the restore bundle which was then already installed. It just does not sound so nice. Maybe I am imagining this. Also the unit did the rebuild again after I powered down and then up a bit later. That means the 2 times rebuilding presets. Just does not seem or sound right.

 

But I have a suspicion I would have to re-install version 2.11 but do not know if that is feasible or safe.

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.... 

 

But I have a suspicion that restoring the 2.0 backed up bundle kind of scrapped my updated 2.11 firmware factory presets....

 

But I have a suspicion I would have to re-install version 2.11 but do not know if that is feasible or safe.

 

You're right - restoring the 2.0 bundle replaced the new 2.11 factory presets with the old. But you don't need to reinstall the 2.11 firmware - just restart Helix holding down FS 7&8  (see link below) to restore the v2.11 factory presets.

 

But this will also replace any non-factory setlists with the empty factory setlists. So if you haven't already backed up any custom setlists do that first. Do not export the bundle - just your custom setlists one at a time. Then restore all factory v2.11 setlists and finally restore your custom setlists.

 

http://line6.com/support/page/kb/_/effects-controllers/helix/helix-reset-procedures-and-troubleshooting-tricks-r768

 

After doing all that, restart Helix one final time. It will rebuild all presets in your newly installed custom setlists.

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Thank you so much Silverhead.

Your help came a bit late since I already started installing 2.11 again. But reading the link and your advice made me this time not screw it up.

 

Now the sound is great. I have been doing this stupid bundle backup and install on each of my upgrades. Lesson learnt

 

And for general information doing this now correctly there was not a 2nd rebuild of presets after power down (after globals reset). So if you find this 2nd rebuild then something is wrong.

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...

 

And for general information doing this now correctly there was not a 2nd rebuild of presets after power down (after globals reset). So if you find this 2nd rebuild then something is wrong.

That's because your presets had already been loaded (and rebuilt) from their v2.0 (or v2.1) state into v2.11 when you restored the older bundle. In general, and in future, you will usually find that all presets loaded for the first time into a newer firmware version need to be rebuilt. It's best to do that by restarting Helix immediately after importing the setlist of older presets - before doing any editing.

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Ok Silverhead you are right

After importing the setlist and then power on off rebuild happened again from preset 256 upwards. (Assume user presets start at 256).

 

Also does this mean it is updating the effects and models in my restored preset list?

 

Thank you so much.

 

Also want to thank HonestOpinion and JaminJimlp for their assistance

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....

 

Also does this mean it is updating the effects and models in my restored preset list?

 

...

 

Can't say for sure. It's doing what it needs to do - and only it knows what's needed! :lol:

 

But a preset is only a specification of the amps, cabs, FX models etc. The actual modeling of those elements is what's updated in the firmware itself, done during the update process before you start reloading setlists and presets.

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HI HonestOpinion

Thank you so much for your assistance. 

 

But I have a suspicion that restoring the 2.0 backed up bundle kind of scrapped my updated 2.11 firmware factory presets. I maybe imagine but now the factory preset does not sound so nice on AC30 (factory preset 2). Even though I did the reboot 9+10 to rebuild the presets. I think it just rebuilt the installed 2.0 presets from the restore bundle which was then already installed. It just does not sound so nice. Maybe I am imagining this. Also the unit did the rebuild again after I powered down and then up a bit later. That means the 2 times rebuilding presets. Just does not seem or sound right.

 

But I have a suspicion I would have to re-install version 2.11 but do not know if that is feasible or safe.

 

Glad to help. Btw, sometimes there is a  'placebo effect' many have experienced where presets either sound worse or better after an update when actually there has been little to no change. However, often the cause of a real change in the sound of the presets is that after the 9&10 global reset all of the global settings go back to their defaults. So you may want to check your global settings for things like Mic/Line settings on your outputs or if you had the pad set or generally anything in your global settings that might be different after your update. The rebuilding of your presets after restoring them is normal. You will see this anytime you restore presets from a prior backup.

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Thanks a lot HonestOpionion

 

But I am sure this is more than placebo

 

I have been doing this bundle backup and restore since beginning of time

 

This is the first time I think I have the improvements of 4 upgrades. It does sound better for sure.

 

Can I bother you once more:  What is the pad setting in global on guitar input. No clue. So just leave it off at the moment.

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From Helix User Guide 2.0 Rev D (latest version) PDF, Page 50, regarding the Global Settings > Ins/Outs

Guitar In Pad: "If your guitar or bass has active or really loud pickups, you may want to turn this on. There's really no rule; use what sounds best."

 

AFAIK, Line 6 has not published their I/0 Specs. They really should!

 

Without actually measuring it (perhaps someone already has?) we don't know precisely what Line 6 has done with the Guitar In Pad. As the term Pad implies, it is an attenuated input.

 

Also feel free to explore the Aux In. The Aux in is a 10kΩ input for an active-pickup equipped guitar or bass. If it sounds good, use it.

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Bundle= all setlists including the two factory setlists and the template setlist. Does NOT include global settings and IRs. If you restore a backed up bundle, you are restoring the old factory setlists and the old factory setlist as well as the setlists that you made. 

Setlist= a group of presets 1a-32d, 128 presets total

Preset= a single "patch"

 

I too was a little foggy on the terminology at first. I back up bundles periodically between firmware updates. I also back up individual presets periodically. I only backup setlists and individual presets within each setlist for restoring right before a firmware upgrade. 

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No problem brother anything I can do to help I'm not the swiftest at the helix but there are some experiences that I have had that I can share to help someone I will do it

 

If you have been doing the bundle since the beginning the original firmware, we'll there was a glitch where most cabs we're using the same microphone and did not sound very well so that is probably what was going on there rather than the placebo effect that is definitely a proven fact from the original firmware the Helix was shipped with at its Inception into the market.

 

I have seen after one of the firmware updates the same thing where I did the global reset on the factory presets after the firmware update it built the patches I turned it off and turned it back on again and it rebuilt them a second time where every other time it has always been one time it would go through that rebuild I don't know what that is all about either but it has happened to me as well.

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I guess any product is as strong as it's weakest feature.   General "management" of the Helix is an epic fail, period.   There are PUBLISHED multiple ways to do updates, multiple options of what needs to be backed up or restored, none if it includes handling IR's which is another bag of beans and Globals are sometimes affected depending on if you are facing east or west on alternate days of the week while doing the backup or restore.

 

I deal with it, you deal with it, we all deal with it because we don't have a choice.   But it's lollipop poor and there is no way to defend it.  

 

There should be consistency.   I had been using the Line6 Updater with great success until this last update.  Previously it would update the editor and the firmware.  This time I only saw the firmware listed, so I aborted and followed the instructions on the web page.  I can't imagine what the "non-forum" folks do other than spend a lot of time talking on the phone with the nice folks at Line 6 support.   

 

Sorry for the rant...  just seems silly that a product with so many great features, designed to be updated often (more than once every few years), doesn't have a simple... "update" button.   In fact, based on how the presets are saved (it's just an xml formatted text file), "new" presets should be an option.   Update should be exactly that... an update.   You want to load the latest presets, "click here to load latest presets... previous presets will be backed up"   done...

 

While the inside (read guts) of the helix is a complicated and beautiful work of engineering art in my opinion...  the "management/maintenance" of the unit is embarrassing...

 

There... I said it... flame me if you wish...   It's how I feel.

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No argument here. The update process is klunky, overly manual and hence error prone. Line 6 is very aware and is working on streamlining it. But it will take time.

 

I'm asking myself this question, and I don't have my own answer yet. Would I prefer updates with new features sooner using the current update mechanism, or would I rather that Line 6 reallocate development resources to improving the update process before proceeding with any new updates?

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No argument here. The update process is klunky, overly manual and hence error prone. Line 6 is very aware and is working on streamlining it. But it will take time.

 

I'm asking myself this question, and I don't have my own answer yet. Would I prefer updates with new features sooner using the current update mechanism, or would I rather that Line 6 reallocate development resources to improving the update process before proceeding with any new updates?

 

I would like to see them work out the updates and IR management first so that follow on updates are less cumbersome, and they can be frequent or infrequent as they like moving forward.

 

I specifically held off doing the 2.10 update until the 2.11 because of the additional time I needed to organize my IR's and dink with reloading presets.  As complicated as a desktop is, or just desktop software... or even mobile software...    rarely does any device require more than a restart after the update and you're good to go (barring an actually update fail).

 

With the Helix...  not only do you have the added steps, but as we have seen...  and as one would expect, there are still the occasional fails on TOP of that making a cumbersome process even worse.  

 

Speaking of cumbersome processes...    Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but the whole "RESET" after update thing gets me every time.  The software automatically restarts the Helix..  so I have to wait for the whole "rebuilding" crap to take place, just to shut it off, and turn it back on again, to reset everything.  A completely wasted step.   Either it should reset on it's own, or the shutdown after update should be a shutdown, not a reboot.   It's just another of what seems like an eternity of waiting just to shut it off so I can reset it.   

 

Sorry... but the more I think about it.. the sillier it seems..

 

Back to your point silverhead, I think knocking out the update/ir management issues now would make the next hopefully many years of use go a lot smoother and be much more enjoyable.

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I would like to see them work out the updates and IR management first so that follow on updates are less cumbersome, and they can be frequent or infrequent as they like moving forward.

 

I specifically held off doing the 2.10 update until the 2.11 because of the additional time I needed to organize my IR's and dink with reloading presets. As complicated as a desktop is, or just desktop software... or even mobile software... rarely does any device require more than a restart after the update and you're good to go (barring an actually update fail).

 

With the Helix... not only do you have the added steps, but as we have seen... and as one would expect, there are still the occasional fails on TOP of that making a cumbersome process even worse.

 

Speaking of cumbersome processes... Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but the whole "RESET" after update thing gets me every time. The software automatically restarts the Helix.. so I have to wait for the whole "rebuilding" crap to take place, just to shut it off, and turn it back on again, to reset everything. A completely wasted step. Either it should reset on it's own, or the shutdown after update should be a shutdown, not a reboot. It's just another of what seems like an eternity of waiting just to shut it off so I can reset it.

 

Sorry... but the more I think about it.. the sillier it seems..

 

Back to your point silverhead, I think knocking out the update/ir management issues now would make the next hopefully many years of use go a lot smoother and be much more enjoyable.

You don't have to wait for all the presets to rebuild after the Helix reboots after the update. You can power down once that process starts, and then do the 9+10 reset upon powering up again. There's no sense in rebuilding presets that are just going to be deleted with the reset anyway.

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No argument here. The update process is klunky, overly manual and hence error prone. Line 6 is very aware and is working on streamlining it. But it will take time.

 

I'm asking myself this question, and I don't have my own answer yet. Would I prefer updates with new features sooner using the current update mechanism, or would I rather that Line 6 reallocate development resources to improving the update process before proceeding with any new updates?

 

I hear you Silverhead, as I have not had any issues with updates I would definitely rather see resources go towards features, new effects/amps, etc... However, I am willing to compromise  my own priorities a bit on this one as I can see from hundreds of posts how many people have had difficulties with firmware upgrades. Of course if I had my druthers I would prefer Line6 hire 'some temporary extra guy' to improve the update process and keep the rest of the team rolling ahead on feature oriented updates.  :)

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