Anyone All In? - Modeling + Tube Amp(s) + FRFR

[roscoe5]

It seems like a lot of us choose either full modeling + FRFR or 4cm with tube amps, but I cant say that I have seen much discussion on using modeling AND tube heads through FRFR live.

 

Inspired by Pete Thorn's Helix rack video on this forum, I spent a lot of time on and off the past few days with two Mesa heads, a 6L6 Triple Recto and EL34 Stiletto II, with their slave outs in loops in Helix (speaker outs loaded), an RJM Gizmo for channel switching, and a Radial HeadBone VT to switch between the heads.  I know there has been a lot of talk about this application into a DAW, but dang it sounds good live through full range speakers (just JBL Eon 515xt's as my current reference).

 

It was pretty freakin' awesome to have access to all the Helix models/effects/IRs, my favorite two Mesa heads, all the Helix routing/switching/eq/level-gain control, Variax control & acoustic sounds in a live setup (well just in my house so far).  I can envision one or both heads sitting atop a Mission Gemini 2 and looking great on a backline.  Wouldn't really even bother me to set the tube amps on the stage in front of me and let the audience see the glowing tubes if I was just going through monitors.

 

It seems like something that is probably already done on large pro touring setups, but I was wondering if there is any experience or thoughts on implementing this on a small scale.

[DunedinDragon]

Interesting setup.

 

4 hours to load it, unpack it at the gig, and set it up.

 

Play 4 one hour sets

 

4 hours to tear it down, take it home and unload it.

 

12 hours of labor that (if your lucky) equates to minimum wage.  Sounds like a plan!!!!!!!!!!!   :huh:

[roscoe5]

Appreciate the reality check as always ;)

 

There should be some opportunities to prewire for portability.  Just using a single head with Helix shouldn't require much more than 4CM with a full traditional rig does.  The only thing you would be swapping out is the traditional cab with an FRFR cab and a load box on the amp.

[spikey]

Interesting setup.

 

4 hours to load it, unpack it at the gig, and set it up.

 

Play 4 one hour sets

 

4 hours to tear it down, take it home and unload it.

 

12 hours of labor that (if your lucky) equates to minimum wage.  Sounds like a plan!!!!!!!!!!!   :huh:

SOP and thats not unusual when you play anything but C&W in the middle "southern" part of the country. Oh you can get away with 1/2 a set of good old Rock&Roll by the drunken 4th set, IF you don't push it too hard and have a Haggard or Jones ready just in case.  :D  Best money (and food) I ever saw was playin my rock styles in a very connected and talented Country band hitting most of the Summer rodeo's. 

 

 

That said back to the now- Ive decided Im gonna use my Fryette PS 2 as a mono 50 watt amp for Helix. Tried it several different ways (including jumping the amp in to the speaker out) and to me this tube amp is just awesome into a cab with V-30's.

[roscoe5]

Awesome to hear about the PS2, Spikey!

 

I wad just curious if anyone around here was integrating tube amp heads with load boxes into FRFR rigs.

[SymphonicDischord]

Honestly roscoe, my personal favorite results have been with either my DT25 (L6 Link) dummied into my Mesa Cab Clone (which has a great sounding cab emulation in it's own right) or 4CM into my Hughes & Kettner Tubemeister 36 (with a great built in dummy load and Red Box DI). As great as the Helix sounds on it's own I'm still a sucker for the warmth imparted by the tubes and with my lunchbox amps, why not.

[MusicLaw]

No more tube amps here!

Helix feeds any of the following:

Two Yamaha DXR10 FRFR monitors.

Fender Mustang IV v.2 2x12 (as stereo 2x12 Powered Cab, or 4cm)

Fender Mustang III v.2 (as 1x12 Powered Cab, or 4cm)

Yamaha THR10C (as stereo 2x3 FRFR Powered Cab)

Two JBL LSR305 near field Studio Monitors

Two Yamaha HS8 Studio Monitors

Two JBL LSR308 Studio Monitors (on the way)

Sony MDR V6 headphones

Shure SE530 IEMs

 

Learning the Helix with the above is an audio engineering delight! I enjoy it as much as playing guitar. I do not find it tedious. Moreover, Helix's on board UI makes it downright fun. Connecting cables is a nominal task.

[strabes]

I cant say that I have seen much discussion on using modeling AND tube heads through FRFR live.

Doesn't seem worth it in a live setting. The main advantages of modeling for me are:

 

1) quick set up

2) reliability

3) price

4) flexible amp tones

5) lightweight rig

 

Using a tube amp head in 4CM with the Helix eliminates all of those. Besides, I can't tell the difference between mic'd up tube amps and the helix models when they're monitored the same way. I think the main reason people think tubes are magic is because they're used to playing amps through loud cabs, not listening to amps mic'd up through monitors/FRFR/headphones. 

[amsdenj]

I tried Helix into the Normal channel of my old Fender Showman amp and then into my FRFR cabinet. I had modified that Normal channel years ago to have Hi-Fi tone controls instead of the Fender all-boost controls. It did sound great, but not that different than using the Haffler power amp I normally use. And the Haffler and FRFR are stereo.

 

I think the larger difference between Helix/Modeler+PA vs Modeler+4CM vs Modeler+Guitar amp's power amp and speakers is the stage setup. Having a 100W tube amp and 2-4 x 12" cabinet behind you is going to sound and feel wonderful, loud full and powerful. Helix into a 1 x 10" monitor in front of you or IEMs is just never going to be the same.

 

I prefer using a backing amp if I can, and use the Haffler and FRFR with Helix driven from the headphone output (so I get two controls, one for FOH and one for stage amp). My FRFR is a Fender Tremolux style cabinet with 2 x 10" coaxial speakers. So its not that big. But we're a 5 piece band and the clubs we play in are often space and volume challenged. So I don't get to use it that often. In the summer we play outside a lot - 6 gigs in a row last summer. I use it all the time in those situations.

 

All that said, I use -10dB ear plugs all the time. Unfortunately that takes away some of that stage amp feeling. But my ears would ring for days without them.

[roscoe5]

I have to agree that through the monitors there is very little difference between Helix amps and my Mesa heads in a send return loop. I can often make the Helix amps sound better.

[spikey]

As great as the Helix sounds on it's own I'm still a sucker for the warmth imparted by the tubes and with my lunchbox amps, why not. 

 

 

Exactly. With my Fryette PS-2 powering a 2x12 cab with V-30's, theres an added "organic" tubey tone thats just sweet to the ears.

[roscoe5]

Exactly. With my Fryette PS-2 powering a 2x12 cab with V-30's, theres an added "organic" tubey tone thats just sweet to the ears.

I agree. My current preference is the same with the SV HD100 power section and Mesa 212 v30 cab. I haven't gotten better tones in any other Helix config.

 

Integration of traditional tube heads with load boxes and IRs, seems to be mainly a studio approach, especially with the quality of the amp models.

[hideout]

I'm saying goodbye to my Fender Princeton and to tube amps in general. I can get pretty darned close to the Princeton's chime with my THR100HD and it does things no tube amp can.

[shatters]

Exactly. With my Fryette PS-2 powering a 2x12 cab with V-30's, theres an added "organic" tubey tone thats just sweet to the ears.

This post is right where I am with my experience of Helix.

Searching for the stage sound. 

 

I'm happy sending FOH from my Helix XLR out, and using IEM with no problem for my Church setup, maybe even using my Lt2 for stage monitor. To me this is like doing cover songs as I'm matching Vox, etc. tones to the songs we are playing, and this setup is always everything is through FOH.

 

But in my Southern rock band I love the sound of my Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue amp on stage, and the true tube sound! (Not the mic'd sound out of my Lt2 FRFR) But I have to only use the Helix as a pedalboard, I have tried adding preamps, but just haven't liked them.

We play more gig's that are small bars and clubs or outside where the only thing going through FOH is Vocals and harmonica and maybe a an acoustic.

 

I'm liking the idea of the Fryette PS-2 powering a 2x12 cab with V-30's, Real curious to hear it!

 

Since my Fender DR doesn't have Effect return I just haven't got to try a tube power amp.

The only thing close that I have is using the Lt2 in Electric guitar mode (Simulating a 2x12 speaker) it comes close, but definitely missing the tube sound (My Glenn D. Bassman amp patch minus speaker/IR cab came so close!).

 

I a/b the 2 setups while playing with band, and we all agreed the Fender DR was better.

So hearing a mic'd amp on stage is tuff for me, when I have played with side fill and my guitar coming in monitor in front of me I always tend to step back to hear my amp more....

 

So my thinking is I could be happy with the Fryette with all the amp sims with no cab to a tube power amp with a 1 or 2x12 speaker cab for stage....  and then add a cab sim at end of chain for XLR out to FOH.

 

 Now it is all about forking out the $$ to test to see if I like it.... :o