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So we have a gig next Saturday and the soundguy...


Rocco_Crocco
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Who is this idiot???

I'm a guitarist, an electrical engineer, and a live sound engineer, and I'd really like to know the danger of a direct line in signal versus a Mic on a cab...

 

Does this dude smoke crackrocks??? Meth?

 

He'd get an education one way or another... what an @zzhat...

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Not doing it any more, but I gigged pretty constantly for decades, as a musician, soundperson, and  custom electronics guy, and I get that you don't feel like you have the power to stand up to this guy.

 

In some senses you don't. If you don't play, other warm bodies will, and neither the club or the sound guy will care much about the stand you took, or feel it as a big loss.

 

You're dealing with a guy who has enough experience to make him think he rules the roost, but who hasn't worked with your type of rig before, so uncertainty and defensiveness are kicking in. Didn't think there were many pros left who haven't dealt with modelers, but there you have it.

So you've got two choices: Stick to your guns, or do your best to get along, like it seems your instincts are telling you to. If you go that way, be calm and rational. Offer him choices, so he feels in control. (XLR vs DI, for instance, either of which get you where you want to be.)

 

However it goes, and however you feel about your interaction and the result, you can decide what to do for next time.

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BTW don't forget you can decouple the volume knob from the XLRs so he always gets a constant level max signal regardless of any tweakin' you do onstage.  Not that amp guys don't reach back and crank'er up anyways...

 

Been an FOH guy for decades - this bozo's a hack.....  GImme a stage fulla DI's and I'm in heaven.

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What I would do:

 

Bring the PE, a 1/4in cable and an XLR, run the 1/4 cable from a different, unused output to the PE, let him mic it, and when he isn't looking, before he turns you up in the mix, take the cable out of the mic and plug it into the mono XLR out, plugging the extra XLR you brought into the mic and let it run to somewhere he won't notice. He'll turn you up and once he gets sound from you, he won't think twice about it.

 

Or show up with a full stack and knock him out the park!

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What I would do:

 

Bring the PE, a 1/4in cable and an XLR, run the 1/4 cable from a different, unused output to the PE, let him mic it, and when he isn't looking, before he turns you up in the mix, take the cable out of the mic and plug it into the mono XLR out, plugging the extra XLR you brought into the mic and let it run to somewhere he won't notice. He'll turn you up and once he gets sound from you, he won't think twice about it.

Sneaky. I like it!!!

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I run the sound for my band and I'm trying to get the 2nd guitarist to move to Helix. It's a killer tone machine and gig setup is a total breeze.

That sound guy doesn't know what he's missing. Maybe he likes fighting mic bleed and dealing with loud amps onstage.

 

Have a good gig

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Because I also wear a Producer hat this whole thread has me annoyed.   No matter the trick, even if the soundguy realizes "oops" I made a mistake, the gig has been soured.  You guy's aren't going to be at your best.   That doesn't mean it won't be great, but without this nonsense it would be greater.  Even if at least you didn't know about it.... but you do.   I have had issues at gigs where I'm the engineer.   The band doesn't find out about it... until maybe the very end.   

 

And just to give a realworld example... many years ago we opened for a well known, rather legendary national act.    When we played, we generally played with guitar stage right, keys and bass stage left.   We played this house numberous times.  But on this night...  the soundman came to us... "hey... I got a deal for ya".  We're already setup for the main act...   if you guys could reverse your normal setup, you'll get a pretty killer sound cause you'll be setup like the main act.   If you don't, it's gonna be a hodgepodge and because of the time constraints, it's gonna be a zoo between acts.    It seemed like a reasonable request, it was a great opportunity... and to make matters even better, the national act's soundguy stayed at the board to ensure none of their settings were changed, or at least not far enough to worry about it.   It was one of our best gigs.  It was that day that I learned how a world-class FOH sound engineer becomes a world-class sound engineer, and only part of it is running the board.   We have since become friends.  

 

He didn't come over all cocky and stuff.... and... he could have done nothing, and we probably wouldn't sounded "ok".... but no...  he wanted us to sound the best we could sound, cause that helps set the mood for the whole night for the whole venue.   Make everyone sound as best as they can, make everything work for the common goal.   

 

That's how it should go.   We never made it more than essentially garage band that did a few gigs, but from that day forward, that is how I expected to be treated and that's how I treated others.  As soon as "attitudes" came out...  it was time to find another gig if we wanted to play.   Note again that word... PLAY !!!!!  It's supposed to be fun.   No one really says... "Hey, lets go work some music.."   It's  lets "play" some music.  

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Why let this guy dictate what gear YOUR band has to use?

 

To hell with him...show up with your Helix and a guitar. If there's no cabinet to throw a mic on, what's he gonna do? Refuse to let you play? Unless he owns the venue, that probably won't go over well with the guy who's paying you to be there. When you're on stage, it's your sand box. Don't let him pi$$ in it.

 

Yep Im thinking ol cruisinon2 is spot on here. Show up with Helix and let him try n mic that HAHAHA....

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I agree with all of the sentiments expressed here.  I currently am the sound guy for my band and have worked with quite a few house sound guys in my gigging career and have never met one that did not PREFER going direct out of the modeler.  The only thing I could possibly think would be his problem is if he is relying heavily on stage volume for the guitars.

 

Asking for a DI box is probably a good way to break the ice and open it to discussion, but I do find that telling the band what type of equipment they will HAVE to show up with seems pretty disingenuous.

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I'm guessing there's a miscommunication here. I've played in many venues that just can't or won't accommodate line level signals. In those cases, I just plug into direct boxes(supplied by the venue) and the engineer can deal with them like they're mic signals. 

 

No biggee, though I do cringe a bit seeing Behringer in my chain at the crappier places.

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will not run anything (guitar-wise) direct. He insists on mic'ing everything, to protect his equipment.
 
I have a Helix, as does the other guitarist. I'm not gonna be in bad shape as I have a Tech 21 Power Engine cab, which is small and weighs next to nothing.
 
The other guitarist, however, has to drag his Marshall 4x12 and buy a power amp. A power amp that will only ever be used at this particular venue.
 
Apparently the sound guy is very good, but is kind of a lollipop as far as personality goes, and is obviously set in his ways. The only way I can see his gear getting damaged is if the volume knob gets inexplicably (possibly by an apparition?) cranked up on whatever modeler a guitarist or bassist is using, thus sending a massive signal to his board. Other than that ...
 
Any of you guys have an experience like this with your band?

 

 

Tell him to treat your Helix the same way he would a keyboard line. Have him run your Helix's (what is the plural of "Helix" anyway??)  into DI boxes. That will also prevent any issues with phantom power from his gear messing with your Helix. 

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As a sound engineer for my group and occasional for others. I'm going to offer a different point of view. I agree with what each of you has written about XLR out being fine and even preferable. This guy likely is not familiar with guitar modelers.

 

I offer you one BUT.  This guy sounds like he has been at this venue for long time and has established relationship with the venue owner. Do you? Do you think the venue owner is going to give a crap about what you have say? Maybe he will if you bring with you a couple hundred fans but otherwise he is likely not going to care. He likely knows this guy can be set in his ways. Get something to work with he can mic (rent or borrow something if you must). You lollipop him off and guess how your going to sound in the mains? Crap. Plus again unless you pack the place you will likely never play the venue again. Get to know the guy and maybe you can educate him a bit and he will feel comfortable with the Helix going direct.

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As a sound engineer for my group and occasional for others. I'm going to offer a different point of view. I agree with what each of you has written about XLR out being fine and even preferable. This guy likely is not familiar with guitar modelers.

 

I offer you one BUT.  This guy sounds like he has been at this venue for long time and has established relationship with the venue owner. Do you? Do you think the venue owner is going to give a crap about what you have say? Maybe he will if you bring with you a couple hundred fans but otherwise he is likely not going to care. He likely knows this guy can be set in his ways. Get something to work with he can mic (rent or borrow something if you must). You lollipop him off and guess how your going to sound in the mains? Crap. Plus again unless you pack the place you will likely never play the venue again. Get to know the guy and maybe you can educate him a bit and he will feel comfortable with the Helix going direct.

 

This is what I would do too.

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Horror story: we once turned up to a gig and the sound guy said this to us. My whole band is digital, at the time it was an Axe, 2 HD500s and a keyboardist; and the sound guy has said all the guitarist needed to use amps. We'd provided - as we always do - our stage requirements weeks ahead of time, saying that we ran direct and needed 4 channels of direct sound, but apparently this guy hadn't read it and was unwilling to try and fit us in.

 

Because he wouldn't budge we ended up having to use the gear from one of the other support acts.

 

Needless to say, horrible gig.

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As a sound engineer for my group and occasional for others. I'm going to offer a different point of view. I agree with what each of you has written about XLR out being fine and even preferable. This guy likely is not familiar with guitar modelers.

 

I offer you one BUT. This guy sounds like he has been at this venue for long time and has established relationship with the venue owner. Do you? Do you think the venue owner is going to give a crap about what you have say? Maybe he will if you bring with you a couple hundred fans but otherwise he is likely not going to care. He likely knows this guy can be set in his ways. Get something to work with he can mic (rent or borrow something if you must). You lollipop him off and guess how your going to sound in the mains? Crap. Plus again unless you pack the place you will likely never play the venue again. Get to know the guy and maybe you can educate him a bit and he will feel comfortable with the Helix going direct.

Yes the guy has been there for years. It almost a certainty that MANY guitarists have bitched about the direct thing. Yet he is still there. Its obvious he makes up the rules and the club allows him to do so. I'm really not that worried about it. I am more interested to see what my little tech 21 PE plus Helix sounds like mic'd up.
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Yes the guy has been there for years. It almost a certainty that MANY guitarists have bitched about the direct thing. Yet he is still there. Its obvious he makes up the rules and the club allows him to do so. I'm really not that worried about it. I am more interested to see what my little tech 21 PE plus Helix sounds like mic'd up.

 

Willing to bet it will still sound good. I've mic'ed up little 8" speaker cabs and got pretty decent results with a bit of EQ. Let us know how it goes!

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What's easier to replace?  Two entire guitar rigs?  Or a sound guy? ;)

That depends on who's doing the replacing. Replacing the sound guy is not the band's decision. It's up to the pub owner and apparently he is not inclined to do so. So the band can stand on principle all the way to the poor house, or accept a fairly simple revision to their usual setup and earn several well-paying gigs. I think they've made the practical choice with the PE option.

 

Good luck, Rocco_Crocco. Let us know how it goes!

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Willing to bet it will still sound good. I've mic'ed up little 8" speaker cabs and got pretty decent results with a bit of EQ. Let us know how it goes!

When he is not looking, just take the XLR off the mic and plug it into the Helix and leave a "dummy" cable plugged into the mic. Leave a pile of cables in the area so he can not see that it's re-routed. He'll never know the difference. 

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When he is not looking, just take the XLR off the mic and plug it into the Helix and leave a "dummy" cable plugged into the mic. Leave a pile of cables in the area so he can not see that it's re-routed. He'll never know the difference. 

 

Might take a bit to figure out but unless you match the gain output of the mic, he will see an drop or spike in the output meters and start looking. Also depends on how sloppy he is with his cord routing. I mean I'm not super clean with it but some are.

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The problem is not that the sound guy has his preferences. We all do. The problem is that he's not willing to even "consider" listening or learning from what everyone is saying, which is that today there is another (and better) alternative, and its not 1969 when you needed to basically mic everything to FOH. 

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The problem is not that the sound guy has his preferences. We all do. The problem is that he's not willing to even "consider" listening or learning from what everyone is saying, which is that today there is another (and better) alternative, and its not 1969 when you needed to basically mic everything to FOH. 

 

Um... just for clarification... in 1969 unless you were in a huuuuuge venue... generally only Vocals went via the PA, everything else was stage volume.   In the 70's in smaller venues we started adding kick and snare to the PA...   Full mix to PA on the smaller scale didn't start to get popular until the mid-late 80's.

 

I still remember doing outdoor gigs where I would have my guitar rig directly behind me.  When I was singing or playing rhythm I stayed in front of the mic as the "human attenuation" for the guitar.   When it was time for a lead, I would step away from the mic so it had a direct shot at the amps behind me and bleed out into the PA.

 

I think I just gave away my age....  :(

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Well back then we also mic'ed the drums and amps too, so not just vocals went to the FoH for us. And that was in most of the mid sized clubs, not huge at all. The point is its "not" 1969, 79 or even 89 any more and the sound guy needs to understand that line outs actually work well these days.

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When he is not looking, just take the XLR off the mic and plug it into the Helix and leave a "dummy" cable plugged into the mic. Leave a pile of cables in the area so he can not see that it's re-routed. He'll never know the difference. 

...this soundguy may be dumb, but I wouldn't play childish games with him, anyway.

 

And again (page 37 of the manual):

 

25.    XLR OUT [...]

IMPORTANT! Never connect the Helix device's XLR outputs to a device

whose XLR inputs have 48V phantom power enabled!

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I've been using a PE60 for years (no Helix though) and it has always sounded real good when mic'd so chances are you will be pleased. The PE60 does have a balanced XLR out on it. The sound guy has to run a mic cable there so that would be the time to have him test it out of the PE60's XLR during sound check. If he doesn't like it then pop the cable back to the mic.  It should be no different than DIing a bass for him. Run the EQ flat and watch the levels.

 

I would schmooze the guy a bit, let him believe he is "the man". $$ are worth a decent working relationship and his misplaced pride could screw up decent future opportunities. My $0.02

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I've been using a PE60 for years (no Helix though) and it has always sounded real good when mic'd so chances are you will be pleased. The PE60 does have a balanced XLR out on it. The sound guy has to run a mic cable there so that would be the time to have him test it out of the PE60's XLR during sound check. If he doesn't like it then pop the cable back to the mic. It should be no different than DIing a bass for him. Run the EQ flat and watch the levels.

 

I would schmooze the guy a bit, let him believe he is "the man". $$ are worth a decent working relationship and his misplaced pride could screw up decent future opportunities. My $0.02

He wont run an xlr out of the PE. In his mind thats direct. He only uses mics.

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That is one rock headed sound guy. Try to fire up the PE60 at or as close as you can get to gig level in case you have to hit the global EQ (just remember the settings before and after so you can switch back). While I love the PE60 it is not FRFR and may require some adjustments.

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Almost all the sound guys in my area of the world drink a lot and dont give two " blanks" about what I ask for. I usually just take the crappy SM57 developed in 1948 off of the mic stand and stick the xlr into any output from my various modelers. But I live in California so most of these fellows know what a modeler is and are also drunk so one less mic to pack up gets them excited and they have another couple of pops during the gig.Except for the sound guy at the casino who is really good but wont shut up LMFWAO!!!

 

for the love of God please keep this whoopin' the sound monkeys butt alive!

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...this soundguy may be dumb, but I wouldn't play childish games with him, anyway.

 

And again (page 37 of the manual):

 

25.    XLR OUT [...]IMPORTANT! Never connect the Helix device's XLR outputs to a device

whose XLR inputs have 48V phantom power enabled!

Idiot proof it using a DI

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I'd like about 10-15 minutes to rip this guy's head back out of his @zzhole!!!

 

No way I could keep from whuppin his @zz sideways... At least verbally if nothing else. LoL! What an idiot!!!!! He's a sound guy, and I'm a pink fiddler crab with blue polka dots...

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Yes the guy has been there for years. It almost a certainty that MANY guitarists have bitched about the direct thing. Yet he is still there. Its obvious he makes up the rules and the club allows him to do so.

 

I'm going to take a wild guess that the soundman and the club owner are longtime buddies and their friendship is more important to the owner than anything the musicians have to say about the soundman's competency or lack thereof. I've dealt with that situation on a couple of occasions. There was one house soundman who refused to set up overhead mics for the drums; he said the cymbals were loud enough without them. Then after the set, several audience members told me they couldn't hear the cymbals (and I never asked or mentioned the issue to anyone). That was just one out of many ways he wouldn't accommodate any requests. And he was paid a fixed rate per night while the band was getting the door, so he'd make more than any of us. We stopped playing there after a couple of gigs, but the guy remained for years, although fairly recently, I heard that he committed suicide, in case there's any doubt that the guy had issues.  :wacko:

 

Anyway, I'd try to reason with this guy, but I wouldn't push it; it's not worth the heartache. After the gig, you can decide if you want to continue playing there and who knows, if the attendance is good and the club owner wants you back, perhaps you'll be in a better position to negotiate. Or not...

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