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Helix Native

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Well, that's a lot of trouble and effort for a $99.00 piece of software, isn't it?

That's his point, the software is $99 to helix owners only, helix lt owners have to stump $299 and non owners $399. So the question is what prevents a non owner buying a helix then paying $99 for native before simply returning the hardware? Worth it to save $300 don't you think? So I guess there must be some system planned to prevent such abuse. A possible solution is they might require you to have registered your purchase for a minimum time that exceeds retailers return window. Line 6 have yet to clarify how any of this works they've so far only stated the prices.

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They also haven't made it clear if this pricing model will work globally or for US customers only.

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Well, that's a lot of trouble and effort for a $99.00 piece of software, isn't it?

Not really. It's a $400 peice of software. Free returns and delivery are common. You're saving $300. People would put it on a credit card and just send it back.

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Then If I were Line-6, I think what I would do is make it so that if you got the $99.00 deal, once the Hardware is de-authorized (returned within a timeframe), then the software won't work either. The sold units would be re-bought and need to be re-registered at some point, so they would know. Returning Helix to get a software is NUTS in my opinion anyway just to get a software deal. Not only is that dishonest but it shows that people don't care what they have, just as long as they get a deal on it.

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The sad truth of the matter is without a system in place to protect against such abuse it is certain to happen. They've said they won't require Internet access once the software is installed and active except for during the 15 day trial so who knows what they could do to restrict access after someone sells or returns their hardware.

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Obviously I'm not talking about the many fine members of this forum who already own the helix. This applies to people who don't have it but would happily go through that kind of process to get the fantastic helix tones for only $99 regardless how dishonest it would be.

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I expect (but don't know for sure) that Line 6 has planned to protect themselves against this. Even if not it could be fixed quickly with an update that solves things. For instance, Helix Native could require that a Helix device be connected periodically (monthly? quarterly?) in order to keep operating. Any benefit from this user tactic would be short lived at best.

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The sad truth of the matter is without a system in place to protect against such abuse it is certain to happen. They've said they won't require Internet access once the software is installed and active except for during the 15 day trial so who knows what they could do to restrict access after someone sells or returns their hardware.

 

You won't need to have an internet connection to run the software, but you do need one to activate it, and presumably install updates after the initial install. So I imagine that if someone sells and de-registers their hardware after the initial install, they would be able to use the plug-in for some time after the sale, but they couldn't update it or re-install it anywhere since they no longer own the license.

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...For instance, Helix Native could require that a Helix device be connected periodically (monthly? quarterly?) in order to keep operating...

I am pretty sure Eric has indicated it will not work this way. That Helix Native will be, regardless of "level" completely independent of hardware.

...So I imagine that if someone sells and de-registers their hardware after the initial install, they would be able to use the plug-in for some time after the sale, but they couldn't update it or re-install it anywhere since they no longer own the license.

 

I have no doubt that this is the way it will work.

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Shame we have to wait longer than 2 days to find out. Oh well I'm enjoying the helix I've got, just don't like having to keep moving it from home to work and back etc.

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maybe Line 6 figures they're getting the Helix product out there and that it will eventually stoke even more hardware sales down the road

to Native only users.

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In any case I probably won't be buying it.

 

So, is it meant to sound exactly like the Floorboard/Rack?

Yes.

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In any case I probably won't be buying it.

 

So, is it meant to sound exactly like the Floorboard/Rack?

 

 

it will indeed, sound exactly like the Floorboard/Rack. There is some functionality that will not be there that is only possible in hardware, but it is MORE than overcome by the ability to do several instances of Native within a recording or MainStage project.

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it will indeed, sound exactly like the Floorboard/Rack. There is some functionality that will not be there that is only possible in hardware, but it is MORE than overcome by the ability to do several instances of Native within a recording or MainStage project.

 

 

Well... I just spent £950 on a brand new one that's mostly gonna stay attached to my computer! I guess I have the pedal and the option to take it with me if I ever decided to join a band again, but really I could've saved myself £600!

 

I didn't become a guitarist to save money, so **** it.

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Well... I just spent £950 on a brand new one that's mostly gonna stay attached to my computer! I guess I have the pedal and the option to take it with me if I ever decided to join a band again, but really I could've saved myself £600!

 

I didn't become a guitarist to save money, so **** it.

There are a TON of reasons to have the hardware. Snapshot, switching and changing parameters on the fly. Basically, live performance will be way way easier with hardware I expect, based on what they have revealed thus far.

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The sad truth of the matter is without a system in place to protect against such abuse it is certain to happen. 

 

 

Keyword here."Abuse". And the crazy thing about it is that most who even are thinking of doing this have no idea just how great Helix really does sound.

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As to those who have purchased the Rack or Floor Model and had the same thoughts as I when we heard about Native - namely - why have the hardware when the software does the same thing? For me - it is a CPU issue. I do not use my Rack for live - just recording. Native will suck up CPU power and the hardware will not. Simple as that for me. 

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As to those who have purchased the Rack or Floor Model and had the same thoughts as I when we heard about Native - namely - why have the hardware when the software does the same thing? For me - it is a CPU issue. I do not use my Rack for live - just recording. Native will suck up CPU power and the hardware will not. Simple as that for me. 

Good point. Native sounds interesting, but I'm not all that sure that I have any real need for it.

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I don't expect Helix Native to be any heavier on the CPU than some of the VSTi's I'm currently using, not even close, in fact, I'm expecting to be able to run several instances as part of big projects. It's not like I'm gonna need 32 blocks on any instance, or 6 instances with 2 amps+IRs each... And there's also the possibility that they make individual blocks available, as is the case with POD Farm.
As Native is intended to be, patchwise and otherwise, fully (or almost fully) compatible with the hardware, I expect it will have a certain "artificial" DSP limit per instance, so that you don't load your Native patch with more than the hardware can process. If that's the case, I hope that limit is optional, something you can turn off if you wish.
Even a modest laptop should be able to run more than one instance, provided you have a trusty, low latency interface.
Anyway, for live use, computer+interface doesn't do it for me. Don't get me started on the reasons...

Months ago, I used Helix to record guitars for my electronic rock band. The first two songs were recorded in full takes, from beginning to end, just one stereo track from the best take made it to the mix.
I know, that seems like a stone age mindset nowadays, but I had my reasons, the first one being "because I can": I've been playing those songs for a year at least and I was pretty confident I could nail them (FYI, I didn't, but they're close enough, I guess :D )
The second reason is that I didn't want to multitrack anything, do more layers or any other kind of arrangement one does in the studio, It was (is) just a demo, intended to reflect what we do live.
And the third that comes to mind, is that I didn't want to use too much "outboard" processing, meaning I wanted the sound of Helix as I use it live. I use a lot of real time control with expression pedals and switching, and trying to replicate all that on Cubase (or any other daw for that matter) would have taken a LOT of work, finding the right plugins, programming them, and/or automating Helix via MIDI... 

The third song would have been a pain in the as$ if I had done the same. Seven minutes long, mixing synth sounds and modeling from the GR-55, beat (not signature, nor tempo) changes... not the kind of stuff I want to do in one take, so I did it in chunks, as smart humans do in the studio :D and as I was finding the right delay and reverb plugins and programming them, routing and setting everything up to get the sound as close to the live version as possible, I thought how much easier that would have been if only Helix was available as a plugin, so I could record my guitars dry and stick the ambient effects later, on a bus, or whatever, but at least not having to program anything just to get the sound right, just import the settings and maybe splitting the chain in several instances, if I want some external (plugin or hardware) processing.

Some days later, Helix Native was announced :D

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As to those who have purchased the Rack or Floor Model and had the same thoughts as I when we heard about Native - namely - why have the hardware when the software does the same thing? 

 

 

 

 

 

That is assuming the software does act and sound exactly like the hardware does (using a PC and or Interface), and that may or may not be the case. 

 

Why? Because just as DI said, "Very few audio interfaces have Helix's level of A/D conversion and op amps and almost none have its 123dB of dynamic range."   

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I don't expect Helix Native to be any heavier on the CPU than some of the VSTi's I'm currently using, not even close, in fact, I'm expecting to be able to run several instances as part of big projects.

 

 

not sure, but what if Native reserves the entire Helix-sized block of CPU in every instance? Even if it doesn't, and you only use one amp and one cab, I think that might be more CPU power than other plug-ins, by far.

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That is assuming the software does act and sound exactly like the hardware does (using a PC and or Interface), and that may or may not be the case. 

 

Why? Because just as DI said, "Very few audio interfaces have Helix's level of A/D conversion and op amps and almost none have its 123dB of dynamic range."   

 

Once you get past the I/O (and in my case, I'll be using Helix's I/O as it's my only audio interface currently), we've been instructed that the sound of Helix Native will be exactly the same as Helix hardware.

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Are you sure you and Phil are not on the Helix Native Beta test program?

:)

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Are you sure you and Phil are not on the Helix Native Beta test program?

:)

I'm merely repeating what has already been said by the powers that be.

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I just bought the Helix. Not sure if I'd need this really. I'd just use the Helix. It's got a pedal and o could connect a Variax if I ever get one. Plus I could use it to play live. But $99 is a good price.

 

What if I got this and then sold the helix down the line?

 

Couldn't someone buy a Helix, buy the VST for the reduced price and then just send it back?

 

Just curious as to how his all works.

 

Someone doing this probably wouldn't pay full price for it anyway... So for Line6, it's still an extra $99 compared to the $0 they were otherwise getting.

Sucks for the retailer though, who sold a Helix and has to take it back, for no real reason.

 

 

not sure, but what if Native reserves the entire Helix-sized block of CPU in every instance? Even if it doesn't, and you only use one amp and one cab, I think that might be more CPU power than other plug-ins, by far.

 

Don't think it's possible to reserve blocks of CPU. This is not RAM. To do something similar to that, they'd have to basically give the CPU nonsense to work on when they don't need it, and that would pretty much be insane.

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...Don't think it's possible to reserve blocks of CPU. This is not RAM. To do something similar to that, they'd have to basically give the CPU nonsense to work on when they don't need it, and that would pretty much be insane.

 

 

I actually have no idea. I don't understand programming on that level, just thinkin' it through...

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I actually have no idea. I don't understand programming on that level, just thinkin' it through...

 

Clearly I don't either, because I just realised that virtual machines do exactly that, so it would possible :)

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As Native is intended to be, patchwise and otherwise, fully (or almost fully) compatible with the hardware, I expect it will have a certain "artificial" DSP limit per instance, so that you don't load your Native patch with more than the hardware can process. If that's the case, I hope that limit is optional, something you can turn off if you wish.

 

Helix Native 1.00 will indeed be artificially limited to match the DSP usage of Helix, but this is per instance. You can always just open a second Helix Native plugin.

 

Of course, this isn't very elegant, especially for plug-in users who have no interest in hardware preset compatibility, so sometime after launch, we'll add the ability to remove this limitation.

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Helix Native 1.00 will indeed be artificially limited to match the DSP usage of Helix, but this is per instance. You can always just open a second Helix Native plugin.

 

Of course, this isn't very elegant, especially for plug-in users who have no interest in hardware preset compatibility, so sometime after launch, we'll add the ability to remove this limitation.

Any news on when said launch will be? Spring ends tomorrow and I realise we've already been told not to expect it then but how close are we?

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Any news on when said launch will be? Spring ends tomorrow and I realise we've already been told not to expect it then but how close are we?

We've been told that beta testing has begun. That means it's reasonably close, but it's also unpredictable. If beta testing goes smoothly and only relatively minor and non-critical issues are found, that can be readily fixed, it will be released 'soon'. However it's always possible, for any product, that beta testing might uncover something more serious that might result in a unanticipated delay. I'm sure we'll be kept up to date if that happens.

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not sure, but what if Native reserves the entire Helix-sized block of CPU in every instance? Even if it doesn't, and you only use one amp and one cab, I think that might be more CPU power than other plug-ins, by far.

I can't (yet) establish a fair comparison between the performance of two ADSP-21469 SHARCs and an i7, but we'll get to that point when Native is released.

Meanwhile, we can just guess

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sometime after launch, we'll add the ability to remove this limitation.

Yay!! 

 

What about being able to load separate blocks "a la POD Farm"? Not at launch? ;-)

 

I know I can just load more instances to fit my needs but, y'know...

 

Thanks for the response

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Yay!! 

 

What about being able to load separate blocks "a la POD Farm"? Not at launch? ;-)

 

I know I can just load more instances to fit my needs but, y'know...

 

Thanks for the response

 

 

Let's not forget, as with any plug-in, just freeze the track after you've recorded. Voila. More CPU available.

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No negativity intended, but I'll be more than impressed if the software sounds as good as Helix hardware does. I plan on setting both up with the same blocks and settings (within the boundaries of both) using the same studio monitors. The only difference will be my Apollo Quad interface running the Helix VST software,  versus the Helix hardware itself.

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No negativity intended, but I'll be more than impressed if the software sounds as good as Helix hardware does. I plan on setting both up with the same blocks and settings (within the boundaries of both) using the same studio monitors. The only difference will be my Apollo Quad interface running the Helix VST software,  versus the Helix hardware itself.

 

Curious why you keep expressing that doubt, I think I read that like 10 times now (no offence, just curious about why you seem to be so sceptic about that)... Since it's the same algorithms, it will sound the same, unless there's some kind of bug, which they would then iron out at some point... The only variable is the input / ad conversion, so as long as you have a good dry signal, it should sound good. The hardware isn't affecting the signal directly, the software is.

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I can't (yet) establish a fair comparison between the performance of two ADSP-21469 SHARCs and an i7, but we'll get to that point when Native is released.

Meanwhile, we can just guess

 

 

21469s depending on clock speed: 2.4 to 2.7 GFLOPS, an I7 is significantly faster, just had a quick look a 6700k is around 113 GFLOPS, so around 28 GFLOPS per core.

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Curious why you keep expressing that doubt, I think I read that like 10 times now (no offence, just curious about why you seem to be so sceptic about that)... Since it's the same algorithms, it will sound the same, unless there's some kind of bug, which they would then iron out at some point... The only variable is the input / ad conversion, so as long as you have a good dry signal, it should sound good. The hardware isn't affecting the signal directly, the software is.

Simply because I have used the latest versions of Guitar Rig, and Amplitube thru both an iMac and a PC with plenty of processing power, and using a nice powerful audio interface, and neither one (to my ears) would make a pimple on Helix's lollipop sound wise. THAT is why I will be a skeptic until I try it myself.  :D

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Thats because the code in Guitar Rig and Amplitude isn't as good as the helix code, it has nothing to do with the processor it is running on.

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No negativity intended, but I'll be more than impressed if the software sounds as good as Helix hardware does. I plan on setting both up with the same blocks and settings (within the boundaries of both) using the same studio monitors. The only difference will be my Apollo Quad interface running the Helix VST software,  versus the Helix hardware itself.

 

 

They have indicated, on more than one occasion, that the software sounds the same as the hardware. I have no reason to doubt that this is the case.

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