Jump to content
jimbob0898

Want to start using FRFR but need to keep it quiet.

Recommended Posts

Hi all, I was hoping to get some opinions on what FRFR direction to take as I am struggling to decide myself of what approach to take as I want to start experimenting with IRs.

 

Up to now I have been using my Helix with my ISP Stealth into a 4x12 at our weekly jam and into my Zilla 2x12 at home.  Sound levels at home need to be kept to sensible levels and the other drawback is the only space I have available to practise is my side of the bedroom, so it is a living space first and I need to see if I can fit something in there to practice with, not an ideal situation but it is what it is.

 

I did have a pair of JBL LSR305s but didn’t get on with them mainly because I would have liked some more volume and there was nowhere I could place them to keep them at head level so I was missing the sweet spot.

 

I can think of three ways to go, one being a single 7 or 8-inch studio monitor in the corner on a stand so it is the right height or getting a PA speaker on the floor like an Alto TS210 or Yamaha DXR10, or thirdly getting a Matrix FR10 which is at the top end of my budget.

 

My main concern with how the Alto, Yamaha or Matrix will sound at low levels as I will not be able to push them at all, it’s probably unlikely I will take them to my weekly jam either as I am happy with the set up there, though it would be nice to have the option to, priority is a good sound at home though.

 

Any thoughts on what way to go?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not low low, just not annoy the neighbours low, I have some good cans but would rather not use them if I can get a good sound going at a reasonable level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think headphones is a good option. But if you don't want that then I think the best option is a studio monitor on a stand. That will eliminate any sound coupling with the floor. Also at the levels you're speaking of I think a 6" speaker would suffice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't stand headphones.  I use a mixer with two 8" studio monitors, Tannoy Reveal.  I can play extremely low at all hours of the night. 

 

I did have some angled metal plates made with some monitor pads and placed the speakers on the floor aimed up at me.  I think it does well to hit the sweet spot a few feet away.  Pads we're about 30$ and had the angled plate made in our shop, I work for a sheet metal shop.

 

 

IMG_2328.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had the JBL LSR305, LSR308, Yamaha HS8, and Yamaha DXR10 all for several weeks with the ability to compare and evaluate them with the Helix and a variety of guitars, sources, and material.

 

At very near field the JBL LSR305 were great. However, at just a few more feet the LSR 308 had more body, fullness and volume. I distinctly preferred the JBL LSR 308 to the Yamaha HS8. Of these three, I opted to keep the JBL LSR308 as near field monitors for use on mounts where their exposed speakers would not be touched.

 

At slightly greater distance or in a slightly larger room, the Yamaha DXR10 were clearly the preferred unit for me! They sound great at all SPLs, and regardless of how positioned or oriented. I found they sound very smooth, have plenty of headroom, and can roar, if needed. I run them with their Input Level control at 12 o'clock and rarely need to raise the Helix Master Volume Knob beyond 12 o'clock. These speakers are jewels. Compact, lightweight, and durable. I'm glad I got them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A good set of headphones is an absolute necessity for a critical listen.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basic rule of thumb for me is, if I can hear the strings over the sound of the speaker, I switch to headphones.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Headphones are great if you don't ever want to play on stage, because what you tweak in with the headphones in most cases won't sound right thru the powered FRFR speaker or amp/cab. If you are planning on using a DAW with host software (Cubase-Pro Tools-Sonar-etc) then yea you need headphones if for nothing else but to lay down vocal tracks while you monitor thru the headphones. But, if you are going to play thru FRFR or play on stage, dont use headphones to set up your patches, or you will spend lots of time redoing them later, when time is not what you have.... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes and no, spikes.

 

If your choice is to go through an FRFR speaker set really quiet or headphones, headphones (or better, IEMs) will probably yield a better result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another issue resulting from what you mentioned, would be corner placement of the speaker. If you go with any sort of a rear ported design such as the JBL LSR's, Yamaha HS, and numerous others, a corner placement will yield a significantly boosted bottom end.

 

Also, placing any Studio Monitor without a grill on the floor is inviting damage. The speaker cone(s) are simply too exposed for my comfort. As seen in the photo posted by dirtfarmer, simply crossing legs while sitting on a swivel chair could result in a Murphy's Law toe into or through the speaker cone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a pair of ILOUD micromonitors and they are awsome and take up now space at all. They will fit in your hand. They have excellent range and low end. You can check the review on youtube, etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes and no, spikes.

 

If your choice is to go through an FRFR speaker set really quiet or headphones, headphones (or better, IEMs) will probably yield a better result.

 

yes..., of course you can turn up headphones!  ;)  I was speaking purely on not using them to craft a stage monitors tone with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we need is a pair of specially designed headphones that don't strive to sound studio worthy 'flat', have great low end, or "sound great" but instead emulate the sound of your average FRFR speaker system. There is a lot of variation in PA speakers and custom designed guitar FRFR cabs but create a pair of headphones that would approximate that sound.  Perhaps it's physics and you simply can't get that sound in a pair of headphones, but if you can wouldn't headphones like that be helpful for designing presets to be used in performance?  They might at least get you most of the way there with some fine tuning required once you are actually going through your FRFR speakers.   :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for all the responses, much appreciated!

 

So any kind of PA is out of the question :D

 

Would like to avoid headphones too, I know they give a good representation of the sound but I just don't like wearing them when having a noodle.

 

So a single monitor is the way to go.

 

I can't stand headphones.  I use a mixer with two 8" studio monitors, Tannoy Reveal.  I can play extremely low at all hours of the night. 

 

I did have some angled metal plates made with some monitor pads and placed the speakers on the floor aimed up at me.  I think it does well to hit the sweet spot a few feet away.  Pads we're about 30$ and had the angled plate made in our shop, I work for a sheet metal shop.

 

 

IMG_2328.jpg

 

That looks a nice setup, I think I will be able to get away with putting the monitor horizontally on my 2x12 and use some iso pads to angle it towards me as I will be sitting down when playing.  That way the monitor will be away from the corner too as I do not want to start faffing with bass traps.

 

 

I have a pair of ILOUD micromonitors and they are awsome and take up now space at all. They will fit in your hand. They have excellent range and low end. You can check the review on youtube, etc. 

 

I keep checking those out but this video is what has stopped me from buying as to me they do not sound as good as the Yamahas in the video.  Although I can use both vs just one 8" monitor so maybe it is not a fair comparison.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rywW3ACiU6E

 

So I have whittled it down to a LSR308, a HS8 or a pair of the iLouds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What we need is a pair of specially designed headphones that don't strive to sound studio worthy 'flat', have great low end, or "sound great" but instead emulate the sound of your average FRFR speaker system. 

 

 

I'm sorry but isn't that a contradiction in terms? Your avg. FRFR (full range flat response) speaker better sound and be "flat" or it isn't worth its own salt (or plastic). I dont want "colored" sounding headphones (which most of them are- bass heavy too), and that's the reason for not tweaking with them on Helix or any modeler. I would LOVE to find a pair of studio headphones that were indeed "flat" and represented the sounds of my Mackie HR824 studio monitors (or FH1500), because if they did I could then create studio and stage sounds for Helix with them in silence. Maybe the word "don't" in your sentence was a mistake?  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry but isn't that a contradiction in terms? Your avg. FRFR (full range flat response) speaker better sound and be "flat" or it isn't worth its own salt (or plastic). I dont want "colored" sounding headphones (which most of them are- bass heavy too), and that's the reason for not tweaking with them on Helix or any modeler. I would LOVE to find a pair of studio headphones that were indeed "flat" and represented the sounds of my Mackie HR824 studio monitors (or FH1500), because if they did I could then create studio and stage sounds for Helix with them in silence. Maybe the word "don't" in your sentence was a mistake? :)

You are right, it does sound like a contradiction in terms because an FRFR is supposed to be flat response but nope, no mistake, there are several 'flat' headphones available out there but they don't sound like an FRFR guitar cab or PA. Good studio headphones in essence already are FRFR speakers, just not the kind that are very conducive to designing presets for performance. I was just speculating about headphones that get closer to what FOH sounds like. Let's put it that way. Probably difficult or impossible but man would they be handy for designing presets intended to be played on a stage. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with headphones is not flatness of frequency response. It's the fact that it's a totally different way of hearing sound than speakers/pa/etc. It's why they aren't good for a primary source of monitoring for mixing, too.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you felt a pair of JBL LSR305 were lacking volume, at the same listening distance, the iLoud spkrs will also be deficient.

 

Does your preferred installation location (in the bedroom) have any available wall space where you could bracket mount speakers to the wall on articulated brackets?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I decided to try the iLouds out first, mainly as they can be mounted on mic stands so I can have them at the right height and move them when not being used plus also have the luxury of stereo.

 

They turned up today but due to going away for a few days I have only had a couple of minutes with them, volume is not an issue though as they plenty loud enough and then some.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to get a great sound out of any number of FRFR powered speakers at a low volume. Just be aware that they're going to sound very different when and if you turn them up, because of the Fletcher Munson Curve (how we perceive frequencies differently according to volume). Though I agree that headphones are more ideal for what you want to do, if you don't like them, you don't like them.

 

Headphones are great if you don't ever want to play on stage, because what you tweak in with the headphones in most cases won't sound right thru the powered FRFR speaker or amp/cab. If you are planning on using a DAW with host software (Cubase-Pro Tools-Sonar-etc) then yea you need headphones if for nothing else but to lay down vocal tracks while you monitor thru the headphones. But, if you are going to play thru FRFR or play on stage, dont use headphones to set up your patches, or you will spend lots of time redoing them later, when time is not what you have.... 

 

I have separate setlists for headphones and for live with my powered FRFR speaker. My patches were initially made with headphones... well actually with my Shure 535 in-ear monitors, which have triple drivers and sound pretty great. When I set out to make a setlist for playing live with the powered speaker, I used those same patches. Obviously, I had to use the global EQ (which I bypass for the headphone setlist) to cut hi and low frequencies and had to do some additional patch to patch EQing and modifying, but it's not like I had to start over from scratch. In a matter of a few hours, I had those patches sounding pretty great with the powered speaker. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it didn't take lots of time. I think starting over from scratch would've taken much more time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to get a great sound out of any number of FRFR powered speakers at a low volume. Just be aware that they're going to sound very different when and if you turn them up, because of the Fletcher Munson Curve (how we perceive frequencies differently according to volume). Though I agree that headphones are more ideal for what you want to do, if you don't like them, you don't like them.

 

 

I have separate setlists for headphones and for live with my powered FRFR speaker. My patches were initially made with headphones... well actually with my Shure 535 in-ear monitors, which have triple drivers and sound pretty great. When I set out to make a setlist for playing live with the powered speaker, I used those same patches. Obviously, I had to use the global EQ (which I bypass for the headphone setlist) to cut hi and low frequencies and had to do some additional patch to patch EQing and modifying, but it's not like I had to start over from scratch. In a matter of a few hours, I had those patches sounding pretty great with the powered speaker. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it didn't take lots of time. I think starting over from scratch would've taken much more time.

Ok so you had to redo them, cut hi and low freqs, then adding in additional patch eq,  modifying them some more, and it took a few hours of your time, but that's not like starting over from scratch. Those of you that like to redo your patches by using headphones the 1st time out , please follow this man's advice because it doesn't take lots of time. Did I cover that pretty well?   ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to get a great sound out of any number of FRFR powered speakers at a low volume. Just be aware that they're going to sound very different when and if you turn them up, because of the Fletcher Munson Curve (how we perceive frequencies differently according to volume). Though I agree that headphones are more ideal for what you want to do, if you don't like them, you don't like them.

 

 

I have separate setlists for headphones and for live with my powered FRFR speaker. My patches were initially made with headphones... well actually with my Shure 535 in-ear monitors, which have triple drivers and sound pretty great. When I set out to make a setlist for playing live with the powered speaker, I used those same patches. Obviously, I had to use the global EQ (which I bypass for the headphone setlist) to cut hi and low frequencies and had to do some additional patch to patch EQing and modifying, but it's not like I had to start over from scratch. In a matter of a few hours, I had those patches sounding pretty great with the powered speaker. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it didn't take lots of time. I think starting over from scratch would've taken much more time.

 

Great method under the right circumstances for the right user but many people are unpleasantly surprised when they first hear their headphone designed presets on a stage.  I would think there are probably some headphones that work better for this than others. I can certainly see this being a huge timesaver if you designed your presets already on headphones as all your routing, blocks, and parameters are mostly set. The problem I have found is that presets I have designed on headphones require many changes until they sound right to me for stage monitor and FOH. Not only do I end up having to reset the obvious like the EQ and the tonestack in the amp, but sometimes other parameters require adjustment such as reverb/delay mix, etc., because even though they sounded perfect in the headphones they just don't sound quite right to me in a stage mix. Still and all, if you can use this method I can see it saving a lot of time rather than rebuilding all your presets. I just cut out the middle man from the start and design my presets with an FRFR speaker cab. However, if one designs their presets late at night, is an apartment or townhome dweller, or has grumpy neighbors/family they may not have that option.  :)

 

One further note, I like being able to use the Global EQ for tuning to the room. In your scenario, you are using the Global EQ to adjust for moving from monitoring with headphones to an FRFR as well as presumably adjusting to the room. I can see this making the Global EQ adjustment a bit trickier but perhaps no more than it would be when you have to adjust for different PAs and stage monitors. The main problem for me would be that there are other parameters than EQ, as I mentioned above, that require adjustment IMHO when you move from headphones to FRFR that cannot be adjusted with the Global EQ. I think in your scenario I might opt for a snapshot approach for each preset with one set of snapshots for each preset being geared towards headphones and another for FRFR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Shure SE535 IEM (and their predecessor SE530) are truly outstanding! They sound phenomenal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so you had to redo them, cut hi and low freqs, then adding in additional patch eq,  modifying them some more, and it took a few hours of your time, but that's not like starting over from scratch. Those of you that like to redo your patches by using headphones the 1st time out , please follow this man's advice because it doesn't take lots of time. Did I cover that pretty well?   ;)

 

If you're auditioning for the position of being my editor, the gig is yours!

 

Great method under the right circumstances for the right user but many people are unpleasantly surprised when they first hear their headphone designed presets on a stage.  I would think there are probably some headphones that work better for this than others. I can certainly see this being a huge timesaver if you designed your presets already on headphones as all your routing, blocks, and parameters are mostly set. The problem I have found is that presets I have designed on headphones require many changes until they sound right to me for stage monitor and FOH. Not only do I end up having to reset the obvious like the EQ and the tonestack in the amp, but sometimes other parameters require adjustment such as reverb/delay mix, etc., because even though they sounded perfect in the headphones they just don't sound quite right to me in a stage mix. Still and all, if you can use this method I can see it saving a lot of time rather than rebuilding all your presets. I just cut out the middle man from the start and design my presets with an FRFR speaker cab. However, if one designs their presets late at night, is an apartment or townhome dweller, or has grumpy neighbors/family they may not have that option.  :)

 

One further note, I like being able to use the Global EQ for tuning to the room. In your scenario, you are using the Global EQ to adjust for moving from monitoring with headphones to an FRFR as well as presumably adjusting to the room. I can see this making the Global EQ adjustment a bit trickier but perhaps no more than it would be when you have to adjust for different PAs and stage monitors. The main problem for me would be that there are other parameters than EQ, as I mentioned above, that require adjustment IMHO when you move from headphones to FRFR that cannot be adjusted with the Global EQ. I think in your scenario I might opt for a snapshot approach for each preset with one set of snapshots for each preset being geared towards headphones and another for FRFR.

 

That all makes sense. The truth is that I've never tried building my patches for FRFR from the ground up. I'm pretty happy with what I've got from the method I described, but perhaps I'd be happier doing it your way. I do indeed have to tweak everything to adapt those headphone jack patches to FRFR, not just the EQ and what you say about tuning the global EQ to the room is (or should be) obvious. But one problem I have with starting over is that I've got my wife, stepdaughter, her boyfriend and their 4 month old baby living with me for now and my windows of opportunity for blasting away in my home when everybody's out of the house are few. Also, my ears are messed up; I've had tinnitus for 30 years and prolonged high decibel tweaking sessions aren't helping. I realize that all of that is more than anybody needs or wants to know; the point is that I'd like to be done tweaking. But don't hold me to that!

 

 

The Shure SE535 IEM (and their predecessor SE530) are truly outstanding! They sound phenomenal.

 

Yes they do! I was forced into the in-ear monitor thing; first with one band where the leader didn't want amps on stage anymore and then with my touring band, where I was the last holdout, still using a wedge monitor that the singers were tripping over (which I admit was pretty funny in a sadistic way). I got on the bandwagon begrudgingly, but I've come to appreciate the advantages of in-ear monitoring. I decided early on that I wanted some reasonably high end in-ears and I'm very pleased with the Shures! One of the band members recently switched to them from the Sensaphonics he was using (which cost twice as much) and he prefers the Shures. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you're auditioning for the position of being my editor, the gig is yours! 
Obviously, I had to use the global EQ (which I bypass for the headphone setlist) to cut hi and low frequencies and had to do some additional patch to patch EQing and modifying, but it's not like I had to start over from scratch. In a matter of a few hours, I had those patches sounding pretty great with the powered speaker. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it didn't take lots of time. I think starting over from scratch would've taken much more time.

 

 

 

Here's what I was getting at. Instead of headphones on creating stage tone's in Helix, let's use a VW engine on an Indy 500 racecar analogy. All you need to do is replace the piston's, add a racing cam, add a bigger block so the cam will fit, and special fuel injected intake manifold,  blueprint and then send the head off for proper machining, add racing rods and lifters and oh yea special air intakes and a turbocharger... 

 

In other words why don't you just create stage tones in a stage like setting? Wouldn't that be easier than all these headphone redo's, was my point.  :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's what I was getting at. Instead of headphones on creating stage tone's in Helix, let's use a VW engine on an Indy 500 racecar analogy. All you need to do is replace the piston's, add a racing cam, add a bigger block so the cam will fit, and special fuel injected intake manifold,  blueprint and then send the head off for proper machining, add racing rods and lifters and oh yea special air intakes and a turbocharger... 

 

In other words why don't you just create stage tones in a stage like setting? Wouldn't that be easier than all these headphone redo's, was my point.  :D

 

Well I think (or hope) that I explained that here:

The truth is that I've never tried building my patches for FRFR from the ground up. I'm pretty happy with what I've got from the method I described, but perhaps I'd be happier doing it your way. I do indeed have to tweak everything to adapt those headphone jack patches to FRFR, not just the EQ and what you say about tuning the global EQ to the room is (or should be) obvious. But one problem I have with starting over is that I've got my wife, stepdaughter, her boyfriend and their 4 month old baby living with me for now and my windows of opportunity for blasting away in my home when everybody's out of the house are few. Also, my ears are messed up; I've had tinnitus for 30 years and prolonged high decibel tweaking sessions aren't helping. I realize that all of that is more than anybody needs or wants to know; the point is that I'd like to be done tweaking. But don't hold me to that!

 

I'm willing to admit that maybe I'm going about it the hard way, but I'm doing so mostly because of my situation. The bottom line is that I'm still getting great results with my powered speaker. The destination is what matters, not the route you took to get there. But I'll tell you what; next time I'm able to blast away in my home, I'll try making a patch from scratch and experience the difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The bottom line is that I'm still getting great results with my powered speaker.

 

 

 

Yep- and that's the most important part I agree !  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quick update, so I have had the ILouds for a few days now and I am more than happy so have decided to keep them.

 

Whilst I know there are better (and maybe cheaper) options out there sound wise, they are the most suitable for my setup.  Plus they are stereo and take up barely any room!  In regards to volume I have both them and the Helix at 12 o’clock and they kick out a good volume, plenty more if I need it too.

 

Thanks for all of the suggestions :)

post-897293-0-87475800-1487372183_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice setup! With the table top Helix, G10 & battery pack, and Line 6 backpack!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×