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MIDI Patch Change BUG


CulBoji
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Hi,

 

I have a problem with my Helix (floor edition):

 

When playing live I am using backing tracks that are played from the computer.

I set 4 of the Helix buttons to send MIDI CC messages for Start, Stop, Next, Previous to my DAW.

I also made a MIDI track in my DAW that sends PC's and CC's to change patches and snapshots on my Helix automatically while playing the songs.

 

The problem is this: the Helix footswitches stop working after I use the footswitches to jump to the next song and the DAW sends the MIDI PC to change the patch on the Helix.

 

This is what happens: footswitch pressed> sends CC to jump to the next song> DAW jumps to the next song> DAW transmits the PC and CC to change patch and snapshot> Helix changes patch but footswitches do not work anymore

 

The footswitches will start working again after I manually change to another patch and back.

 

This problem does not happen when I change the songs on my DAW manually on the computer, patches on the Helix change and behave like they should. So I think this is a bug in the firmware that happens when a footswitch is pressed while getting a PC command.

 

The problem also does not happen if the DAW only sends CC's for changing snapshots and not PC's for changing patches.

 

The DAW is Cubase 9.

 

The Helix has the latest firmware (2.12) installed.

 

The Helix is connected to the computer via USB.

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When you say the Helix footswitches stop working do you mean for everything, or just for MIDI commands? This may be a dumb question, but do you have the CC messages you're using set up in every patch you're using?

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Yes the footswitch with the CC's are setup identically in all the patches.

 

Only the footswitches that send MIDI commands stop working, they don't seem to send MIDI commands anymore. 

If I change to a different patch manually then they start working again but after I press the footswitch to change song/patch it stops working again.

 

I tested again and it actually sends 2 CC's to switch songs instead of 1 before stoping to work: press footswitch to send CC to change song> DAW changes song and sends PC> Helix changes to the next patch and sends the CC to change song again> DAW changes song again

 

The CC's should only be sent on button down and not momentary so after changing the patch it should wait for me to depress the footswitch and then press it again to send the CC. The footswitch is set to "MIDI CC", channel 1, CC#1/2/3/4, value 0 in the Command Center.

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If not, you should be using the "BANK/Program" setting for the Program changes and the CC commands for all the other.  If I have time I'll try to replicate this although I'll be using REAPER rather than Cubase 9.

 

Also, you might try taking a working program, do a copy/pase of that program - change Only the AMP type in the copied program and then see if all goes well.  If it does, than that would indicate that there is something MIDI wise different between the two. (or there is a bug in the switch process.)  Good luck.

 

 

Also,  it would help to know your GLOBAL settings for the switches as that may have an effect on what is "active" after a program change.

 

Bo Baker

 

UPDATE ON 2/21/2017

 

What I am seeing using REAPER as a DAW is that a program change PC sent from Reaper will change the Bank/Program and default to the Snapshot that is the Snapshot saved with the preset.  In order to change to a differennt snapshot a new CC#69 with the snapshot's number must be sent (noet this is an offset number i.e.  0 = 1, 1 = 2, 2=3.  etc.

 

Your Globals/Preferences setting for Snapshots should be set as "Discard" so any changes to that's Snapshot will be discarded when you leave the Snapshot.

 

Everything else seems to work OK for me.  I'll see if I can get it to break tomorrow.

 

Bo

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I attached a pic of how I have my footswitches setup in the patches. All my patches are set the same way.

 

My setting for Snapshots is set to "Discard" but I don't see how that would affect changing patches. My problem happens when my DAW changes the patches, not the snapshots in the patch. Changing snapshots in the patch goes well.

 

HelixMIDI.JPG

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Hello:  Well I have everything working as far as sending and receiving Present changes, MIDI control messages and Snapshot changes after a DAW send.  All switches are working after the DAW send.

 

What I am not clear on is how you are using the Helix to "send" jump to next song" messages.  What foot switch are you using and what command(s) and what channel are you sending the message.

 

I can use the Helix Preset up/down to change the  presents manually but have not attempted (yet) to use that switch to send "song" messages to a DAW.  Since a "Song" is a file to your DAW not sure how to call up a new file using MIDI unless you are in a "juke Box" type of program which just goes from song to song.  Any help??

 

Here are the Globals I am using.:

 

Present Mode = Snap/Stomp

Stomp Mode = 8 switches

Mnapshot Mode = Manual

MIDI Base = 1

Midi thru = ON, Midi over USP = ON, Midi PC = On

 

 

Bo

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In Cubase you can put markers in a project and you have functions to jump to the next marker or the previous one.

So all songs are in the same project and have a marker on where they start.

 

I setup Cubase to listen to CC1 for jump back and CC2 for jump forward, the Prev footswitch sends CC1 and the Next footswitch sends CC2.

The MIDI track in Cubase sends a PC to the Helix with the patch when it reaches the songs start point (the marker point)

 

So: you press Next> goes to the next marker in Cubase> Cubase goes to the marker and sends a PC to Helix> Helix changes the patch. This happens almost instantaneous and you will have the Next footswitch still pressed when the Helix changes the patch.

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Hello,  OK  I thought that that might be the case.  So . . . . one BIG  MIDI File with "Measure Markers" (most DAWS can do this) for the separation of "Songs".  So it is really just a "jump" to next marker.

 

I am guessing that there is not enough "time" between sends of data back and forth.  Place a few measures of time between sending the "next marker CC and the CC to HELIX for patch change.  That should do it.  You have the right process and the fact that when it's done "manually" tends to lead to a "timeout" type of issue between the two units.

 

Let me know how that works out.

 

Bo

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Hello.  OK   Well refering to pages 57 and 58 of the HELIX User Manual on MIDI;  the CC #  1,2 and 3 are "reserved" commands for the EXP 1,2,3 Pedals.  Several 
other CC# are reserved (refer to the MIDI Chapter in the User Manual.).   I would suggest changing the Next/Previous Marker CC Commands to  CC#77 and CC#78 as these are not "reserved" according to the HELIX documentation.

 

Let me know if that gets it working!

 

Also, remember to put some distance in time between the "NEXT command" from the Helix Footswitch and the return Patch/Snapshot commands from the DAW.  The HELIX needs some time to grab those commands and will most likely get "confused" if it is left "hanging".

 

Bo

 

UPDATE:  2/25

I now have everything working between the HELIX and my REAPER DAW. My foot switches go to Next or Previous Marker in the DAW and the other switches  work fine.

 

As mentioned above, I used CC# 19 and CC# 20 to make the Next/Previous jumps.

 

Going to creat a few "songs" in the DAW today and use the Markers to jump to the start of each song and see what happens.  You having any luck in getting your set up to work?

 

Bo

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I set the CC# to 100/101/102/103 and have the Helix MIDI channel set to 2 and the DAW channel set to 1. I still have freezing buttons issues.

 

The issues do not happen if I mute the MIDI track that sends CCs and PCs to the Helix. It only happens if the Helix sends MIDI data while receiving MIDI data.

 

The Windows Helix editor also crashes a lot if it's open while I send MIDI data to the Helix.

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Humm . . . .    I have everything working at my end On REAPER.  My set up is HELIX and REAPER send to channel 1.  Only one recorded track with Songs identified with 'Markers" to jump to next song.  Markers are numbered 1,2,3,4  which in MIDI terms is 0,1,2,3.

 

The NEXT and PREVIOUS stomps send CC#19 and CC#20  and the other Stomp switches are set to MMC commands PLAY and STOP.

 

I think you need to identify why you are getting two CC commands  AND  make sure if you have not already that you give the HELIX some time to capture and post the Marker command before sending you next song's patch changes.  I still think that it is a timing issue between the computer and the HELIX.  Also could be caused by the less than high quality USB cable that ships with he HELIX.  If you have other USB chords try a few and see if that helps.

 

Other than that, I guess it''s time for a post to Line6  support.   Good luck!

 

Bo

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Another day, another thought . . . . in reviewing the documentation I ran across this little gem on page 11 in the second pinned NOTE:  "While in Stomp mode, stepping on the Bank Up or Bank Down temporarily enters Preset mode.  Once you have selected a preset, Helix returns to Stomp mode."

 

Perhaps this is what is happening to you.  When your DAW sends a BANK Change while in STOMP MODE the Helix is waiting for a Preset change as if it is in Preset Mode.  Therefore, none of the Stomps are able to receive a message.  Then when you manually change the preset it returns to stomp mode and all is well.

 

If this is the case than a second Preset message after the first Bank/present message from your DAW should return you to the stomp mode.  In other words - send two bank/preset messages.  The first changes to the correct bank, the second chooses which Present in that new bank and returns control back to the Stomp switches.

 

Rather convoluted - but that is how the Helix is set up to work.

 

Good luck getting this all sorted out.

 

Bo

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I tried everything and nothing worked, it's something to do with the Helix sending and receiving MIDI at the same time.

 

I bought a iRig Blueboard (Bluetooth MIDI footswitch) and I am using that to change the songs while the Helix only receives MIDI data from the DAW.

This works great but it's pretty stupid to not be able to use the Helix for this.

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  • 1 year later...
On 3/1/2017 at 12:33 PM, CulBoji said:

I tried everything and nothing worked, it's something to do with the Helix sending and receiving MIDI at the same time.

 

I bought a iRig Blueboard (Bluetooth MIDI footswitch) and I am using that to change the songs while the Helix only receives MIDI data from the DAW.

This works great but it's pretty stupid to not be able to use the Helix for this.

I'd like to resurrect this with Line 6, as I just bought the full Helix instead of the LT for this command center capability to replace a MIDI controller on my pedalboard, used for the same purpose as yours.

 

There is 100% a problem with the Helix both sending and receiving MIDI data at the same time which results in all kinds of weird things happening. I've spent countless hours working around it but sequencing MIDI commends to be 30--100ms apart from each other though this has created all kinds of latency challenges with my use case. 

 

Line 6 needs to respond to this as they're touting the Command Center capabilities as differentiating over competitors. Very disappointing. If I hadn't have so much invested in Line 6 presets for 10 years, I'd move to a competitor. 

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