Best practices for EQ'ing in-ears vs FOH

[johnplanetz]

Great community here!  I've been a long time lurker, now finally in possession of a Helix!!

My Helix and EON 610 arrived last night and I'm busily making presets in prep for tomorrow night's rehearsal (and gig next Friday).  

I'm making the sounds while listening through the EON 610 over XLR line level, and everything is starting to sound pretty awesome.  On the other hand, when I plug in headphones (nice Sony MDR-7509HD) to the back of the Helix though, it just sounds awful.  

The EON 610 will be on stage with me, but just to feel some air, and interact for feedback.  I'll be wearing Shure SE215 in-ears (along the rest of the band), so we need it to sound good in the ears. The Helix will be connected via XLR to Mackie DL32R mixer, to an ART HeadAmp6 Pro headphone amp, and back to the in-ears.  And the DL32R also feeds the house- QSC GX7 power amp into Yamaha Studio S115V.

So the question is-- will my in-ears sound as bad as the Helix headphone jack?  

If so, what's the best way to resolve this?  Helix global EQ?  Or EQ in the mixer?  Treble/bass controls on the headphone amp? Something else?

And I assume the Helix will need EQ'ing for the FOH as well, but will that need to be different or the same EQ settings needed to sound good in-ears?

Bonus questions :)

- is there any way to use the headphone jack on the Helix (like when playing at home at night) that doesn't suck?  

- am I insane for risking a whole new rig for a gig in a week???   I guess I'll take my HD500x and Blackstar Stage 60 as a backup.

Thanks,

-John 

[DunedinDragon]

You definitely may have your hands full getting that passive PA system to sound similar to a modern FRFR speaker like the EON610.  I suspect your in-ears shouldn't be that much different from your EONs, but you're going to have to figure out how to best EQ your signal at the board to better match the response profile of the EON if you want your FOH to be representative of what you are hearing through the EON.  My band used to use the Yamaha Studio series years ago, but unless they've made some pretty significant improvements in the last few years you're going to lose a considerable amount of articulation and presence in your guitar tone in the FOH.  It's not due to anything in the Helix or the EON, it's just the way passive systems work because the speakers themselves aren't powered and therefore don't have any DSL capabilities to help define and maintain a anything close to a flat frequency response.

[jbuhajla]

If you can adjust eq/level in your in ears system, just set up your preset to sound good FOH, then tweak the eq/levels in the in ear monitors at the venue. You don't want to adjust your preset to sound good in the in ears, then sound like crap FOH. 

[MusicLaw]

As your IEMs are being fed by the ART HeadAmp6 Pro headphone amp from the Mackie DL32R mixer from the Helix, the last two two links in the signal chain are where you'll need to make adjustments to what you are individually hearing via your SE215.

 

As for playing at home, I regularly switch between any of several pairs of Sony MDR-V6 plugged directly into the Helix, or a pair of Shure SE530 IEMs. The Sonys and Shure do not sound identical. Yet they each sound very good and switching between them has not proven to be a problem. For convenient low volume near field stereo monitoring, I will often patch the Helix to a Yamaha THR10C's AuxIn, or use my primary near field monitors which are a set of JBL LSR308. Otherwise, I have a set of Yamaha DXR10, I use positioned as wedges or standing vertically as backline.

[jeremyn]

Unless you have the Eon on a pole, make sure you roll off the lows by putting it in floor monitor mode or manually tweaking the EQ (via Bluetooth). Otherwise you'll end up lowering the bass in the Helix amp sims to compensate, which will cause your tone to sound thin and brittle in your headphones/IEMs.

[amsdenj]

If you can adjust eq/level in your in ears system, just set up your preset to sound good FOH, then tweak the eq/levels in the in ear monitors at the venue. You don't want to adjust your preset to sound good in the in ears, then sound like crap FOH.

 

I agree with jbuhajla. You will have a hard time getting any IEM to sound and feel like a guitar amp or good FRFR with Helix. What you need to do is focus on what you're feeding to FOH, and make your IEM tolerable and sufficient to provide you the feedback that supports real-time performance. This can be much improved if you have a mixer capable of providing individual mixes for each IEM user. Our PA (X-32 Core) does this, and I try to provide each performer with their own monitor mix. But its very difficult to control all that while you are also performing, which many of us do. Good patches created in realistic rehearsal environments is a must.

 

I have found that we can adapt to a lot more than we might expect. I hated IEMs at first. I was getting FOH in my IEMs since I run the PA for the band while also performing. Using a FOH mix I just couldn't hear my guitar the way I needed to in order to perform well. But once we used a similar setup at rehearsal (all through headphones), I got use to it and now prefer to hear myself in the mix instead of standing out. So it takes some practice and patience, like a lot of things in life.

[waymda]

If you'd like a low cost, yet very sophisticated IEM solution have a look at the POSSE personal monitoring system.

 

I run one and it allows me to blend:

• Helix outputs (stereo 1/4 inch sends set to amp level)
• A send from the desk (just vox and mono but could be stereo)
• My vocal mic (dry and direct - pre-desk)
• A stereo pair of condensor mics on the unit

All balanced from a small unit on my mic stand with a small box on the floor next to the Helix, whilst sending the balanced outputs to a pair of small wedges for stage monitoring for the band, then onto FoH.  

 

I run this up a long stereo 3.5mm extension lead gaffered to my Variax lead allowing a pick up point for my in ears at the guitar.

 

This allows me to have fully sealed IEMs (I use 1964 triple drivers), and still hear the band and audience without needing to mic anyone else up.  We just run vocals and kick (and now Helix) for most gigs.

 

I have bi-lateral conductive deafness with about 60 db defeat requiring hearing aids to work in the real world and they can't supply the level of clean clear volume I get from my IEM solution and it runs at about half.  So I hear better on stage than off - how many of you can say that?  I can be as quiet as anyone wants on stage and still have a roaring loud energetic sound hitting my ears - which is how I always ran real amps, yes I was always the guy getting told to turn down.

 

The POSSE cost me about half what the IEMs did, and I couldn't be happier.  I had some minor issues early on using an OEM PSU that didn't supply enough amperage, but that's fixed easily.

 

Sorry if this sounds like an advert - it just seems a very good solution for lots of pro-am guys.  

[jbuhajla]

I agree with jbuhajla. You will have a hard time getting any IEM to sound and feel like a guitar amp or good FRFR with Helix. What you need to do is focus on what you're feeding to FOH, and make your IEM tolerable and sufficient to provide you the feedback that supports real-time performance. This can be much improved if you have a mixer capable of providing individual mixes for each IEM user. Our PA (X-32 Core) does this, and I try to provide each performer with their own monitor mix. But its very difficult to control all that while you are also performing, which many of us do. Good patches created in realistic rehearsal environments is a must.

 

I have found that we can adapt to a lot more than we might expect. I hated IEMs at first. I was getting FOH in my IEMs since I run the PA for the band while also performing. Using a FOH mix I just couldn't hear my guitar the way I needed to in order to perform well. But once we used a similar setup at rehearsal (all through headphones), I got use to it and now prefer to hear myself in the mix instead of standing out. So it takes some practice and patience, like a lot of things in life.

 

 

Spot on. We are also using the x32 board, but we use the P-16s on stage for IEM mix/control. Don't expect to get your "dream tone" through IEM. Amsdenj hit it on the head when he said "make your IEM TOLERABLE". It took me a couple of months to get used to them, but I prefer it now. 

 

Unfortunately, we are fully isolated, so no sound coming from the stage at all. I would love to have a wedge or two in front of me to get some sound waves interacting with my guitar, but that's not the case. I play Helix only to FOH and monitor through IEMs. 

[johnplanetz]

Thanks for the feedback!  I'm happy to report that the Helix sounded fantastic in my IEM's at the rehearsal.  I didn't do any radical EQ'ing in the mixer- I just rolled off some lows and highs.  

Everyone in the band was impressed with the sound.  It honestly sounds better than my previous rig.  And I was thrilled with the flexibility, visibility, ease of use, and minimal setup!

Furthermore, I set up the PA in my garage and tested my sound through the mains and it sounded fine. Not exactly representative of how it'll sound at the venue, so maybe it'll require a bit of tweaking.  But I'm now quite confident to use the Helix at our gig on Friday.

The only things I'm struggling with a bit are getting consistent volumes across presets, and getting the same character of high-gain musical feedback with the EON 610 compared with what I was able to get before with my 2x12 tube amp.   Oh, and having enough hours in the day to play! :)

-John

[jroseberry]

Any reason why the headphone amp is being used for your IEMs?

The Mackie DL32R should have plenty of sends (to connect to your IEM receiver).

 

I'd worry about your FOH sound first-and-foremost.

If you have to make some minor tweaks for the venue, that's a perfect use for the master EQ.

 

The Shure 215s are decent ear-buds.

Bass player friend of mine uses the 215s.

I use a pair of 425s (similar)... and they work well.

 

Getting used to IEMs can take a minute.

At first, it can feel really disconnected (from the room audience).

The sound guy can put up a condenser mic (only routed to the IEMs).

This help dramatically... as it puts some room/audience back into your ears.

 

If the IEMs aren't sounding quite right, your engineer can EQ the send.

 

It's great to be able to move anywhere in the club and be able to hear tight/immediate sound.

[jbuhajla]

Thanks for the feedback!  I'm happy to report that the Helix sounded fantastic in my IEM's at the rehearsal.  I didn't do any radical EQ'ing in the mixer- I just rolled off some lows and highs.  

Everyone in the band was impressed with the sound.  It honestly sounds better than my previous rig.  And I was thrilled with the flexibility, visibility, ease of use, and minimal setup!

Furthermore, I set up the PA in my garage and tested my sound through the mains and it sounded fine. Not exactly representative of how it'll sound at the venue, so maybe it'll require a bit of tweaking.  But I'm now quite confident to use the Helix at our gig on Friday.

The only things I'm struggling with a bit are getting consistent volumes across presets, and getting the same character of high-gain musical feedback with the EON 610 compared with what I was able to get before with my 2x12 tube amp.   Oh, and having enough hours in the day to play! :)

-John

If it sounds fine in your PA in your garage, wait to tweak it at the venue. It's a different room and won't sound the same anyway. You'll be in good shape. 

[johnplanetz]

Any reason why the headphone amp is being used for your IEMs?

The Mackie DL32R should have plenty of sends (to connect to your IEM receiver).

We're currently running wired IEM's instead of wireless. One day we'll switch to wireless, but it's a big investment. 

6 aux outs from the DL32R for 6 independent IEM mixes into the 6-channel headphone amp, then extension cords out to each player position. I just run a spiral wrapped wire up my guitar cable to my waist, where I plug in my SE215's. 

This was an inexpensive way to get into IEM's (< $1000 for the entire IEM rig for 6 guys) and we've been running it for a couple years now. It's sooooooo much better than floor wedges. You're right about feeling a bit disconnected, but you get used to it. We tried running an audience mic for awhile, but we decided we didn't need it.

-John

[PeterHamm]

The original post was for "best practices".

imho, that involves... imho.

1. Get the best sound for your audience  and put up with the difference in the IEMs. Don't favor getting the IEMs perfect. The audience is who you are playing for, not yourself.

 

2. Either use a wedge or IEMs. If you're using IEMs, turn off the wedge. You're just adding stage noise that you were ostensibly trying to get rid of when you switched to IEMs in the first place.

 

3. Always know that (imho) the IEMs will sound more like a PA than a pair of headphones will. They are designed that way.

 

4. when playing in headphones, it's okay to tweak certain things imho, BUT... only in the first few minutes of playing through them. Ear fatigue with headphones or IEMS kicks in FAST and you are EQing for tired ears.