Helix to FOH help setting up patches and cables - digital newbie

[conradkriel]

Hi Guys 

 

Im an experienced analogue gear head with loads of lovely amps and analogue gear but this digital modelling is new to me so please be patient! We gig every weekend and play rock and roll. I use a Les Paul Traditional (57 and classic 57+) pickups and a Bernie Marsden PRS (also with vintage PAF style passive pickups. 

 

Ive just taken delivery of a helix and immediately tried the 4 Cable method (the initial reason I bought it for) and got some ok results.

 

I then tried helix into one of our FOH - pa speakers (after reading various topics on this forum on how to get the best out of helix) - this is a Yamaha DBR12 Powered speaker - i was blown away! Aerosmith patches sound like aerosmith! I have now tweaked several of my tones through this speaker and am loving the tones im getting.

 

I now plan on buying an Alto TS112 or 110 to serve as a cheapish onstage monitor / wedge and ill also use this as my main practice (powered) speaker at home - ill use this to set up my tones. 

 

QUESTION NOW is - how do i transfer these wonderful sounds to a gig environment?

 

Our drummer (who takes care of the desk and FOH sound) says i need to send the desk a FLAT EQ / DI signal - so he suggests i set up a mixed tone (which ive already done using the yamaha DBR12) and then presumably this mix is the one ill send to my alto ts wedge (so i heear the tones ive created at home) and then send one to the desk for FOH with a "flat EQ" as he will then adjust the EQ from the desk - when we are at the venue to allow for room dynamics etc 

 

So Helix friends my questions are as follows: 

 

1) do i need to alter my patches to allow for different signal paths? ie create one signal path to the desk for FOH and one signal path to my monitor? - If so where do i start?

- Do i need two signal paths?

- how do i create this ? what are the outputs etc i would use ?

- what is a flat eq? - do we mean completely flat i.e. no bass , mids or treble or just take them all to for example 4 i..e. very low levels ? what exactly do i have to do to achieve this? 

 

2) In terms of physical cables and outputs do i send an

 

- XLR to the desk for my guitar (same as with analogue gear) and then 

- take a feed from the desk to my onstage monitor or 

- do i / (can i) & is it beneficial to send a direct feed from helix to the monitor (to ensure i hear the EXACT tones i have set up at home) - (with no mixer interference / tweaking)  , 

 

I almost sent helix back (before i tried the powered pa speaker - thank goodness i didn't) - once i had set up my tones i thought great "ill just turn up and plug into the pa (as if i was miking up) and hear the same sounds back i had created.

 

i don't want to spend weeks tweaking endlessly SO YOUR EXPERIENCE AND ADVICE are valued and appreciated.  .

 

 

[silverhead]

Use a single signal path. You don't need two paths. Set the Output block to Multi. In Helix Global Settings -> Inputs/Outputs set the XLR output level to Mic and route the XLRs directly to FOH. Use two channels for stereo. No DI box is necessary. IMPORTANT: Tell the sound guy to make sure there is no phantom power on the Helix input channels.

 

Set the 1/4" output level to Line or Mic, whatever your Alto input is expecting, and route the L/MONO output to your Alto monitor. This sums the stereo signal to mono.

 

I suggest you keep/take responsibility for your own EQ/tone. Don't use Helix Global EQ and don't change anything in the good Aerosmith (or whatever) tone you like. Tell the sound guy to start with flat EQ on the board. He can then tweak to the room requirements. But you should control your own basic tone. His job is to shape your tone to the room, not to define your basic tone. Just be sure the Helix Global EQ is off.

[rvroberts]

Agree totally that the sound you hear and like through a decent pa style box ( FRFR essentially) is the sound you want to send to FOH.

The Sound guy should only make any adjustments needed to suit the room and the total band sound. They shouldn't be much.

Regarding levels, I run 1/4in to my on stage box, and run the XLRs to FOH. There is a ground lift. Any decent desk should be able to take line level. I would only use mic level if your mixer could not deal with line.

Regarding EQ, if you like what you are hearing, that's what you want your audience to hear. However you got that sound is totally fine. I use a global EQ, but it's definitely not the only way to address tailoring your sound for a realistic guitar sound.

[jbuhajla]

You can just connect one XLR from FOH directly to you Helix. Ask you sound guy if he want mic or line level from your Helix via the XLR. To change the XLR output you go to Global Settings>ins/outs, page over once, then you will see XLR outs. I set mine to mic, but your sound guy may want line level. 

 

I create all my tones at home either through a PA speaker or though IEM plugged into Helix phones jack. I found that it is close enough for FOH and don't add global EQ, but I play in the same venue every week. What I create at home is pretty much what I get out of our QSC FOH system. 

 

If you want just your guitar out of your wedge, then you just go 1/4" out of the Helix directly to your powered wedge. If you want the entire band in your wedge, you'll have to get the monitor mix from your board to your wedge. 

[Joepeggio]

You will find many opinions on how to connect. We all have had different experiences.

 

Currently, I do one path like Silver recommends with Multi out.

 

Personnaly i go 1/4 out to an ISO box to FOH. This isolates me from any phantom power issues, and other equipment connected to the FOH mixer. XLR out to my 2 TS110a's. I usually set them as a "backline" if thats how we all are setting up. I assign the main volume knob to control only the xlr outs so i can turn up and not affect FOH. All in stereo or mono.

 

Now for the TS110. They are really designed to 'fly' or pole mount and sound good. On the floor, they have very strong punch which sounds and feels good but may not match the tone of the PA. I find i need to global eq the xlr only to match the FOH tone. My suggestion is set up, turn 110s off and get good sound from the FOH. Then eq the xlr only (110's) to match. I pull 300 hz or so down 7db and low cut around 100 (i dont want to fight the bass, they usually win)

 

 

My personnal choice of ISO box is the ART DTI. I know there are better brands, but this one has all formats in to all formats out without any boost or loss. Its about $60 (USA) and passive. Its very versatile not a one trick pony.

[DunedinDragon]

 

Our drummer (who takes care of the desk and FOH sound) says i need to send the desk a FLAT EQ / DI signal - so he suggests i set up a mixed tone (which ive already done using the yamaha DBR12) and then presumably this mix is the one ill send to my alto ts wedge (so i heear the tones ive created at home) and then send one to the desk for FOH with a "flat EQ" as he will then adjust the EQ from the desk - when we are at the venue to allow for room dynamics etc 

 

 

Well, it's pretty clear you're dealing with a drummer and not a guitar player.  He clearly has no background in working with distributed systems such as the Helix.

 

Take everyone's advice here.  Once you set your tones through the FRFR speaker, the FOH tone is going to be VERY similar.  There may be some adjustment for the room, but I personally never trust the sound man to do that and prefer to correct it with my Global EQ...that's what it's for.

 

At best have him start (after gain staging the signal) with a flat EQ which should be a good match to your stage monitor.  Hopefully he knows and understands how to correctly gain stage the signal to achieve the appropriate signal strength and blend with the rest of the channels.  Personally I leave my global outputs on the default of Line for both the XLR and 1/4 inch.  I might change the XLR out to Mic if it were a very long run to the board.  Line level is never a problem as long as the sound man understands how to correctly gain stage the signal, which I've never run into a problem because I insist on it in every performance and every venue.  As long as you're not clipping through the limiter on your FRFR speaker, you shouldn't be clipping through the board unless he doesn't gain stage you correctly.

 

I personally go direct to the board with the XLR L(Mono) line out but use a phantom power protector on my cable just to be sure.  I go from my 1/4 L(Mono) out to my FRFR speaker which I position behind me on the floor.  In my case my speaker has a 'Monitor' setting which corrects for the bass buildup on floor monitors.  If you don't have that you're probably best to mount it on a pole rather than try to correct the signal via EQ.  Alternatively you could use an amp stand or even a plastic milk crate to isolate the speaker from the actual floor.

 

Bear in mind if you do it this way your Helix Master Volume will affect both signal to the FRFR monitor speaker as well as the signal you're sending to the board.  That's why I'm very careful to get all of my patches at the same relative voluem levels so I can set the Helix Master Volume correctly for the stage level I need with the Master Volume, then have the FOH gain stage that signal, then I leave it alone through the rest of the performance.

 

I've used this process both on the Helix and the HD500X for a few years and have never run into a problem at any venue I've played at.  But I can't over-emphasize the importance of correct gain staging and consistent volumes across patches.  If done correctly at the board leaving ample headroom at unity setting on the fader for your channel as should be the normal process, you shouldn't have any problems with clipping in the FOH or on your stage monitor.

[silverhead]

....

Bear in mind if you do it this way your Helix Master Volume will affect both signal to the FRFR monitor speaker as well as the signal you're sending to the board.  ....

 

That's adjustable. You can change the behaviour of the Master Volume knob so that it controls only the XLR or 1/4" outputs.

[conradkriel]

You people are gents 

 

I''m going to read all of this, digest and try early next week in rehearsal - we are recording tomorrow night so im going traditional cab and amp - unfortunately as i don't have any tweaking time available  

 

Thank you again everyone - its REALLY is appreciated and i am glad to hear that i won't have to change the patches i've created as they sound bloody fantastic!! Best tone i've heard in 20 years of playing ! Never thought id be saying that about a modeller !!

[jbuhajla]

 

 Best tone i've heard in 20 years of playing ! Never thought id be saying that about a modeller !!

Yes, the times have officially changed. Digital is equal to the tubes/analog world, just a different interfacing method. 

[MusicLaw]

All good with the various comments above.

 

I'll add that I found a discernable difference between the sound of the Yamaha DXR10 vs. an Alto TS210A. The same goes for the DXR12 vs. Alto TS212A.

 

In both instances, I preferred the Yamaha.

 

Although the Altos are certainly attractively priced, I went with the DXR10. The DXR10's onboard Contour switch works wonders when positioned as a Wedge Monitor. Yes, it is more expensive, but it sounds great and is covered by Yamaha's 7 year warranty.

[DunedinDragon]

That's adjustable. You can change the behaviour of the Master Volume knob so that it controls only the XLR or 1/4" outputs.

 

Yeah, I kind of forgot about that.  I don't use it because doing it the other way kind of forces a certain amount of volume discipline so that we don't end up getting into volume wars.

[conradkriel]

Thanks for all the help guys

 

I've ordered an alto ts 210 which arrives tomorrow. We have 2x Yamaha dxr 12's for the pa - so I went for the lower cost alto option to serve as a

 

practice tool

For setting up patches at home and then as a

monitor for gigs.

 

My research suggests the 210 has a more focused tone than the 212 - most patches I'm reducing bass so I didn't don't want any more !

 

I'm going to take all the advice given and send my signal path to the alto and foh.

 

I'll assign master volume to only control my monitor signal only so I don't blow the audience out the room (great suggestion silverhead! )

[conradkriel]

Thanks for all the help guys

 

I've ordered an alto ts 210 which arrives tomorrow. We have 2x Yamaha dxr 12's for the pa - so I went for the lower cost alto option to serve as a

 

practice tool

For setting up patches at home and then as a

monitor for gigs.

 

My research suggests the 210 has a more focused tone than the 212 - on most patches I'm reducing bass so I didn't don't want any more !

 

I'm going to take all the advice given and send my signal path to the alto and foh via xlr

 

I'll assign master volume to only control my monitor signal only so I don't blow the audience out the room (great suggestion silverhead! )

[silverhead]

The manual is your friend. See page 42 for details. It's in GLobal Settings -> Ins/Outs -> pg 3.

[conradkriel]

Thanks - I'll reread the manual this week