FRFR fail!!! read before you buy one!

[Rocco_Crocco]

I use a FRFR for convenience. It's light, sits in front of me onstage, and sounds pretty much the same as the PA the audience hears. 

[ricksteruk]

As I said earlier...my worry is that I'm losing harmonics and frequencies that add to the sustain of the instrument when I am forced to artificially EQ my signal. 

It's VERY obvious when you use a clean sound. You put that high cut on it and it just takes away all the sparkle and liveliness of the sound. 

I can only assume that it's taking away from the high gain sound too.

 

I'm getting a great sound...don't get me wrong. Very happy. 

Just questioning WHY we have to apply a high cut to a model of a very nice tube amp. Just seems like something isn't right in the first place if you have to put a high cut on it to get it to sound good.   :)

 

 

Honestly has nobody else noticed this?

 

If you dial in the cab or IR to sufficiently remove the nasty fizz from the high gain amp model, when you switch to a clean it sounds really dull and lacking in sparkle?

 

Really? no one has noticed?

 

It's easy to deal with by saving different cab settings for the clean amp snapshot - but why do we need to?  it's not like you need to swap to a different speaker cab when you swap from clean to gain channel on a regular amp.

[brue58ski]

They have those? ;)

I went back to look at this post thanks to RZUMWALT, and DID do a spit take. I really needed that. It's been a long week.

[BigRalphN]

It is great when people find their sound.  As so many other have said FRFR allows you to get that mike up studio sound. Adin a mix live they still sound amazing and allow multiple flavors.   I don't think the real tube amp market will dwindle any time soon.. Thee is still a great market for modeling and amps. I do think over the next  20 years or so tube amp use will gradually lesson as more artists go to lighter rigs with more flexibility. As major artists continue to embrace Helix, Fractal etc. so will the public.

 

One thing have always wondered about is why are actual tubes used in modelers. I remember tube overdrive and tube compressor pedals had a brief run of popularity but never caught on big (I know there are still some out there).  Put  something like an  old stereo tube circuit in  one. I am sure it has been tried and didn't work for one reason or the other.  I know with the old Vetta's the secret recording sauce was to run it through a tube preamp. It really made iii record well. Sorry if I hijacked things..

[johnfrancis]

I'm still pretty new to Helix. When I first got it, I went 4CM into the FX loop of my Bogner Atma. Sounded fantastic on stage, but I was never really happy with the FOH tone. So I bit the FRFR bullet and now go XLR out into the PA, and digital out to a Line 6 L2m as floor monitor.  I now hear exactly what the audience is hearing. The L2m is beefy enough that I don't really miss the 'real' amp.

[yelldog]

I've used Helix FRFR for years with outstanding results.

[erniedenov]

One thing have always wondered about is why are actual tubes used in modelers.

 

More often than not, I think it was an illusion to give a sense of security to those who believed you couldn't get a good sound without at least one tube. About 12 years or so ago, a buddy of mine bought a Rocktron 2x12 combo amp called the "Taboo Twin." It didn't model specific amps, but it was basically a digital modeling amp. Sounded pretty good too, at least for the time. And it had a glowing preamp tube in it. So...

 

A bit later, they came out with a stomp/preamp version of it. It did not have a tube. I bought it and copied every parameter of a few of the Taboo amplifier's presets. Armed with a Rocktron Velocity (solid state power amp, probably the same as what was in the amp) and two closed back 1x12 cabs with simliar speakers to what was in the Taboo Twin, I did an A/B test between my rig and that amplifier... and they sounded virtually identical! That experience made me believe that the tube in that amplifier was placebo. I think a preamp tube can make a difference in some distortion/overdrive stomp boxes that use them, but in a digital modeling amp? I doubt it.

[mikisb]

In fact, it's pretty simple: Who wants to use speakers only for electric guitar and wishes a certain speaker sound will be happy with a guitar amp or guitar cabinet.

Who wants to use the Helix 's flexibilty to play electric guitar, bass, acoustic guitar... will use a (so called) FRFR amp or speaker with - if needed - speaker/mic simulation.

The second way is certainly more flexible and the resulting sound probably will match better the sound from a PA but at the end of the day, it's a matter of taste.

 

Of course there are differences in FRFR (and PA), as there are differences even between premium class speakers for home hifi, wich all should be FRFR. It's not only linearity that counts, but also distortion, resonances, dissipation...

Some are more linear than others and i did even see 12" speakers without tweeter labeled as FRFR :rolleyes: . They are certainly not what i mean with FRFR and still get worse if measured/listened off axis.

 

There could be another advantage for FRFR speakers: I allways was a bit pissed on that my amps/combos had a completly different sound on and off axis, wich is the nature of a bigger speaker driver.

With a 2- or 3way speaker, the range/angle of higher frequencies can be much wider due to the smaller drivers (midrange/tweeter), so the sound can be more even over different angles. With the right cab sim, this would be my way.

As there are a lot of so called FRFR speakers on the marked wich aren't really FRFR for my definition, with their weight and their form factor, i decided to build my amp/cab by myself: 12" coaxial (useful for nearfield use), 2way poweramp, fully configurable dsp in a classic combo form factor and a XPS/Carbon sandwich baffle should mach my needs.

All this with less than 10 kg/22 pund and i will be happy. The linearity is'nt a problem with good drivers and a powerfull dsp.

As a gimmick, one could rebuild the frequency response of a guitar cabinet as a preset in the dsp (tweeter off, "big mountain" around 2-3 KHz, highpass at 100 Hz) to have the same angle dependent dissipation as a normal 12" speaker. But who should want this?

To do the inverse (even dissipation and a wide frequency response) with a 12" or 10" guitar speaker is out of reach ;)

[robbieb61]

I've used Helix FRFR for years with outstanding results.

I think you mean: "For less than 2 years"

I got my Helix in the first shipments from Sweetwater in Oct. 2015...today is August 19 2017

Not even 2 years since the Helix hit the street. 😊

[glideman]

It is great when people find their sound.  As so many other have said FRFR allows you to get that mike up studio sound. Adin a mix live they still sound amazing and allow multiple flavors.   I don't think the real tube amp market will dwindle any time soon.. Thee is still a great market for modeling and amps. I do think over the next  20 years or so tube amp use will gradually lesson as more artists go to lighter rigs with more flexibility. As major artists continue to embrace Helix, Fractal etc. so will the public.

 

One thing have always wondered about is why are actual tubes used in modelers. I remember tube overdrive and tube compressor pedals had a brief run of popularity but never caught on big (I know there are still some out there).  Put  something like an  old stereo tube circuit in  one. I am sure it has been tried and didn't work for one reason or the other.  I know with the old Vetta's the secret recording sauce was to run it through a tube preamp. It really made iii record well. Sorry if I hijacked things..

 

Vox used the preamp tubes in the early Tonelab series well (SE and LE).  The preamp tube did actually warm it up.  You could even hit the secret buttons and

eventually get to a "bias" setting for the preamp tube that was used in a little mini "power amp" circuit.  I still have a Tonelab SE and an LE.  Had they done what

Line 6 has done with Helix with the Tonelab concept (they went cheaper with the Tonelab series and have practically killed it), who knows what might have been.

 

Even though Tonelab made it more of a simulated power amp tube section with the tube preamp, you could probably get the same effect with Helix running

it through a really nice studio tube preamp... but it would probably be overkill at this point with Helix.

[GenoBluzGtr]

Whew!!   I'm just glad that the thread did NOT turn out to be what I thought when I read the title!  I love the sound I'm getting through my K-Series monitor.  I bought Helix to AVOID carrying an amp to gigs.... so when I read the title, I though there would some catastrophic reason I needed to stop what I'm doing and start lugging a heavy amp around again.  Okay.. .back to building presets with cab models.

[cruisinon2]

I though there would some catastrophic reason I needed to stop what I'm doing and start lugging a heavy amp around again. Okay...

What could possibly have been in this thread that would have dictated that you give up a rig that suits your needs? Not for nothing, but 98% of internet content is some blithering idiot's tale of woe. Making decisions based on forum ramblings is guaranteed to leave you disappointed eventually. If something is working for you, run with it. Just because Bob from French Lick, Indiana decided he didn't like it, doesn't mean you have to give it up too...

[GenoBluzGtr]

I guess I should have put a "sarcasm" icon in my post... it was to call attention to the dramatic title to the post.  "FRFR Fail!!  Read before you buy!" - very click-baitish to me.  

 

But you're correct, we should never be lemmings.  

[willjrock]

More often than not, I think it was an illusion to give a sense of security to those who believed you couldn't get a good sound without at least one tube. About 12 years or so ago, a buddy of mine bought a Rocktron 2x12 combo amp called the "Taboo Twin." It didn't model specific amps, but it was basically a digital modeling amp. Sounded pretty good too, at least for the time. And it had a glowing preamp tube in it. So...

 

A bit later, they came out with a stomp/preamp version of it. It did not have a tube. I bought it and copied every parameter of a few of the Taboo amplifier's presets. Armed with a Rocktron Velocity (solid state power amp, probably the same as what was in the amp) and two closed back 1x12 cabs with simliar speakers to what was in the Taboo Twin, I did an A/B test between my rig and that amplifier... and they sounded virtually identical! That experience made me believe that the tube in that amplifier was placebo. I think a preamp tube can make a difference in some distortion/overdrive stomp boxes that use them, but in a digital modeling amp? I doubt it.

Im going to say you are dead on. A single preamp tube isnt going to make much difference at all. I mean it can, but this isnt really the proper application. Poweramp tubes would be the thing, which would offer a whole host of problems, but they'd do a much better job of "refining" the original sound..... and then at that point you may as well call it a tube amp. It makes more sense to simply run it into a tube poweramp if thats the sound you want.

 

98% of internet content is some blithering idiot's tale of woe.

 

lol that number might be a little high because what i see a lot of, are dudes who looooove giving themselvs a pat on the back.

[cruisinon2]

lol that number might be a little high because what i see a lot of, are dudes who looooove giving themselvs a pat on the back.

Nah...the "check out my awesomeness" types are just louder and more ceremonial in their presentations. The excessive pageantry makes it seem like they're everywhere, but the whiners will always outnumber them. In contrast, it's hard to throw a fit in style, which makes those folks easier to ignore... ;)

[PeterHamm]

Nah...the "check out my awesomeness" types are just louder and more ceremonial in their presentations. The excessive pageantry makes it seem like they're everywhere, but the whiners will always outnumber them. It's hard to throw a fit in style, which makes them easier to ignore... ;)

 

Yeah... but... unboxing videos for the WIN!

[MonkeyXT]

Nah...the "check out my awesomeness" types are just louder and more ceremonial in their presentations. The excessive pageantry makes it seem like they're everywhere, but the whiners will always outnumber them. It's hard to throw a fit in style, which makes them easier to ignore... ;)

 

One of the most perfectly worded comments I've read in my personal history of reading on the internet.

Perfect summation.

 

(We now return you to the thread topic, already in progress...)

[Lachdanan0121]

One of the most perfectly worded comments I've read in my personal history of reading on the internet.

Perfect summation.

 

(We now return you to the thread topic, already in progress...)

As a poet myself, I have to say Cruisinon2 is quite the "wordsmith."  ;)

[cruisinon2]

As a poet myself, I have to say Cruisinon2 is quite the "wordsmith." ;)

I do my best...;)

[Old-Rocker]

I know as I type this I shouldn't get involved in the FRFR discussion,but i'm too old to start learning lessons now :rolleyes: .

In fact I may be learning I've deleted my long winded response :D 

[darknight]

 

"It's work to get rid of, and I wish I didn't have to do it too. Point is, I'm not sure there's any other way for them to do it. The "amp in the room"thing that so many lust after would require modeling a dizzying number of mic positions and distances in an 180 degree arc from the cabinet. In front, above, left, right.."As soon as these amp modellers start heading the direction that 2 Notes Torpedo is going with mic placement, and more importantly the addition of convolution reverbs that simulate the reverb that is generated from the mics placement, and location in the room you will have nearly solved the problems the current modelers face, with having to high cut, or low pass the frequencies that we can not stand. This is one of the defining features I feel is necessary for me to buy another modeller in the future. I currently went back to a real amp/ cab, and use the 2 Notes Torpedo live, or Reload, because I like the fact that if I want to I can use the 2 notes BlendIr software to copy my ideal cab, and mic placement if I so choose. It is not the most Ideal thing because I need a nice linear solid state power amp to create a IR/ Tur file that I can use that sounds pretty dang close to my real amp, which would then be sent to front of hall, and my real amp gets the thru jack sound, which allows me to have the real amp sound, live or just mute it entirely with the load box that the Live, or Reload has.

[hdsteele]

On 3/26/2017 at 5:10 PM, boynigel said:

"FRFR fail" was merely a way to possibly get someone's attention who might be shopping for one and to let them possibly take from my experience and learn that maybe they don't need one. 

 

And here I am 2 years later in that exact position.  Appreciate everyone commenting on the subject and the OP thread. Some of us out here are newbs and just trying to learn. Was looking at Rokits, Yamahas, JBLs, etc.  Maybe I will give it a shot through my little Vox AC4 first to see if I really need "FRFR".  Personal playing, won't ever leave the house. 

[AdamAndroidFG]

On 3/24/2017 at 8:14 PM, Verne-Bunsen said:

I'm with you, it wouldn't have occurred to me to try it that way. A little Rivera magic could very well be part of that recipe, they are spectacular amps! Good reminder that rules are made to be broken. I'll be interested to see if anyone else chimes in with similar experience?

 

On 3/24/2017 at 5:44 PM, boynigel said:

shortly after purchasing my helix i purchased a QSC K12 as it's always been my understanding that modelers sound best through these kinds of speakers.  one day for sh!ts and grins i decided to see how my Helix sounded through the front of my Rivera Venus Deux, which is Rivera's "pedal" platform amplifier.  i called up some of my favorite patches, turned off any IR's and/or cab sims and plugged it in to the Rivera.  wow.  just, wow.  sounded absolutely incredible.  even through the Rivera's single 12, there was more "oomph" and resonance than what i'd experienced w/the cab simulations through the QSC.  to be fair, the Rivera is a hell of an amp and its enclosure is a bit larger than the average 1X12 combo, but still...  after about 15 minutes i plugged back in to the QSC which left me even more floored as to how much better the Helix sounded through the Rivera.  who knew?  i suppose YMMV as they say, but for me it's a no-brainer.  the QSC is now on CL.  i would encourage any one who has a good tube amp with a nice sounding clean channel to try what i did before plopping down a good chunk of change on a FRFR.  you may be very pleasantly surprised...or not, but it's worth a try before you buy.

 

On 3/27/2017 at 8:20 PM, hideout said:

Have you tried other FRFR speakers?

sweetwater has a whole write up on em- very informative.

Reason I mention this , is because they talk about many FRFR manufacturers designed for modeling supposedly have that “UmPh” of a speaker cabinet. At the end of the list they mention the QSC k-12 as like a “this also “works” option”....

 

 I know your running it thru the front of your amp and that’s something I likes about these posts- the willingness to go outside the box and yield with promising results .

I had to look at this with an open mind to believe your getting great results that way- but I absolutely do-

 

My 2nd guitarist gets great results running 4cm through his JC-120,

but we kind of expected that to work, considering it’s a very clean /neutral amp.

 

I however have a problem even running an IR through my vox ac50 because I already love the tone of that amp- so I split my signal at the end / pan it hard over, and  run an IR straight out so that it doesn’t color my amp.

 

Im just giving examples of my thought process , and my desire to want to hear the modeled tones as accurately as they were intended.

 

Just wondering if ya tried any oof those FRFR designed for modeling/ if they have that oomph or not, and if you find that your sims still sound remarkably similar to what they are supposed to be??

 

 

[cruisinon2]

54 minutes ago, AdamAndroidFG said:

 

 

Have you tried other FRFR speakers?

sweetwater has a whole write up on em- very informative.

Reason I mention this , is because they talk about many FRFR manufacturers designed for modeling supposedly have that “UmPh” of a speaker cabinet. At the end of the list they mention the QSC k-12 as like a “this also “works” option”....

 

 I know your running it thru the front of your amp and that’s something I likes about these posts- the willingness to go outside the box and yield with promising results .

I had to look at this with an open mind to believe your getting great results that way- but I absolutely do-

 

My 2nd guitarist gets great results running 4cm through his JC-120,

but we kind of expected that to work, considering it’s a very clean /neutral amp.

 

I however have a problem even running an IR through my vox ac50 because I already love the tone of that amp- so I split my signal at the end / pan it hard over, and  run an IR straight out so that it doesn’t color my amp.

 

Im just giving examples of my thought process , and my desire to want to hear the modeled tones as accurately as they were intended.

 

Just wondering if ya tried any oof those FRFR designed for modeling/ if they have that oomph or not, and if you find that your sims still sound remarkably similar to what they are supposed to be??

 

 

 

This thread is 3 years old... don't hold your breath for a response.

[hideout]

20 hours ago, AdamAndroidFG said:

 

 

Have you tried other FRFR speakers?

sweetwater has a whole write up on em- very informative.

Reason I mention this , is because they talk about many FRFR manufacturers designed for modeling supposedly have that “UmPh” of a speaker cabinet. At the end of the list they mention the QSC k-12 as like a “this also “works” option”....

 

 I know your running it thru the front of your amp and that’s something I likes about these posts- the willingness to go outside the box and yield with promising results .

I had to look at this with an open mind to believe your getting great results that way- but I absolutely do-

 

My 2nd guitarist gets great results running 4cm through his JC-120,

but we kind of expected that to work, considering it’s a very clean /neutral amp.

 

I however have a problem even running an IR through my vox ac50 because I already love the tone of that amp- so I split my signal at the end / pan it hard over, and  run an IR straight out so that it doesn’t color my amp.

 

Im just giving examples of my thought process , and my desire to want to hear the modeled tones as accurately as they were intended.

 

Just wondering if ya tried any oof those FRFR designed for modeling/ if they have that oomph or not, and if you find that your sims still sound remarkably similar to what they are supposed to be??

 

 

You quoted me but it's blank... Wha'd I say?  lol