Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
HonestOpinion

Bringing the benefits of "Discard" mode to "Recall" mode for Snapshot Edits

Recommended Posts

HonestOpinion, on 23 Feb 2017 - 3:38 PM, said:

 

DI posted this comment over on TGP in response to a post regarding a suggested feature for snapshots. I think this little pearl is worth repeating. I was not aware of this behavior and can see it being quite useful. Some might prefer to configure the Helix so they can use it this way.

 

Comment from DI: "...pressing the current snapshot switch while in Snapshot Discard mode reloads the stored snapshot's settings."

 

DI's bullet point got me thinking about what would seem to be most useful switch behavior when I move between snapshots. I use my Helix with the Snapshots Edit global option set to "Recall" because I frequently prefer my ad hoc changes within a snapshot to be retained when I switch away from one snapshot and then return. Unlike "Discard" mode, when you are in "Recall" mode, hitting the snapshot a second time does not reload the stored snapshot's settings. I assume this is as designed. There are times however when you would also like to quickly return to your default snapshot settings. The change below or something like it may have already been requested by the original post this was excerpted from (don't remember the rest of the post). Interested in others' thoughts on this and how and what their preferred behavior would be.

 

Behavior change for Snapshot Edits in "Recall" mode?: A great capability to add would be to allow the user to essentially have both a "Recall" and "Discard" mode available at the click of a footswitch. So for example, a second click, or a prolonged click on a snapshot with "Recall" mode set would reload the snapshots's default settings. Let's say you are in "Recall mode and your snapshot has the phaser and distortion bypassed as a default. When you stomp/activate the phaser-distortion and then go to another snapshot and return to the one with the phaser and distortion, they are both still active. The proposed new behavior would be that holding down the snapshot button or hitting it a second time(not sure what the best implementation would be) would reload the snapshot's default settings (distortion-phaser=bypassed). This would essentially give you the choice between and the benefits of both the "Recall" and "Discard" snapshot modes simultaneously depending on how you used the footswitch.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh, GREAT idea ! It might be as well somewhat "auto save" mode, in which your stomp bypasses are saved within a snapshot only.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about double-tap to restore saved settings​? I'd vote that up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't own a Helix (yet), but that seems like a cool idea.

 

The only problem (in my experience) is the side-effects of a system that recognises held switches and double-taps.

 

At the moment, I assume, a single press of a switch actives that snapshot instantly. If you want double taps etc, you'd have to sacrifice the instantaneous nature of the snapshot feature.

 

In other words, you'd have to wait until the switch is released for anything to happen. I know this has been a bit of an issue for users of TC's Nova System, and I can understand why. We're mostly used to stomping on a switch and something happening instantly. 

 

I'm working on my own MIDI foot switch, and I haven't come across a method that allows instant switching AND recognition of multiple taps/holds without having either some time delay or sending the message on the switch being released.

 

Hopefully there's some cunning trick I haven't thought of yet :-)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No cunning trick there I think. Computer apps behave the same way. You either get both single and double click events when you double click, or there's a delay to figure out whether it's double or not. That's pretty much inherent in the concept.

 

And I agree that that's not great, and that the ability to turn it off would be important.

 

But really, I doubt anyone would want to live w that delay, even if they'd like the functionality, so maybe it's back to the drawing board.

 

This is why conversations are good, and product/app design is trickier than you might think. Maybe Line 6's clearly awesome UI design team has some better ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you were to use a Double tap like this:

 

1) First tap... prepare to save the current snapshot settings replacing the original setting.

2) Second Tap (within "x" seconds)... recall the original snapshot setting 

 

** If any other button is pressed between 1 and 2 then proceed with 1)  i.e save the current setting immediately and then do whatever the new button wants

 

...then it should work without causing any undue delay..  it could work as fast as you can double tap.... or if you set the "x" parameter to 5 seconds then you could prepare Helix to recall the original setting by hitting it once and then hit the button again to recall it instantly.

 

Would that work?  

 

EDIT:

 

It could even work like this:

1)  First tap - Save current snapshot settings instantly (but store the original settings in a temporary buffer)

2)  Second Tap (within "x" seconds - recall original settings from buffer)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the great ideas and feedback folks. Please keep the ideas coming. I guess I will put an idea up in Ideascale with your suggestions as to implementation and hopefully leave it up to Line6 to pick the best way to do it. The overarching concept being to make either "Recall" or "Discard" be easily accessible on the fly during a performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All good points relative to the OP! Line 6's Dev team has done a great job sifting through feature implementations and bring the best ideas to fruition. Get this one up on IdeaScale (if not already there in some form) and let it start accumulating votes.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DI's bullet point got me thinking about what would seem to be most useful switch behavior when I move between snapshots. I use my Helix with the Snapshots Edit global option set to "Recall" because I frequently prefer my ad hoc changes within a snapshot to be retained when I switch away from one snapshot and then return. Unlike "Discard" mode, when you are in "Recall" mode, hitting the snapshot a second time does not reload the stored snapshot's settings. I assume this is as designed. There are times however when you would also like to quickly return to your default snapshot settings. The change below or something like it may have already been requested by the original post this was excerpted from (don't remember the rest of the post). Interested in others' thoughts on this and how and what their preferred behavior would be.

 

Behavior change for Snapshot Edits in "Recall" mode?: A great capability to add would be to allow the user to essentially have both a "Recall" and "Discard" mode available at the click of a footswitch. So for example, a second click, or a prolonged click on a snapshot with "Recall" mode set would reload the snapshots's default settings. Let's say you are in "Recall mode and your snapshot has the phaser and distortion bypassed as a default. When you stomp/activate the phaser-distortion and then go to another snapshot and return to the one with the phaser and distortion, they are both still active. The proposed new behavior would be that holding down the snapshot button or hitting it a second time(not sure what the best implementation would be) would reload the snapshot's default settings (distortion-phaser=bypassed). This would essentially give you the choice between and the benefits of both the "Recall" and "Discard" snapshot modes simultaneously depending on how you used the footswitch.

 

 

I like the idea in concept - I think it's great. I'm just thinking of the practicality'ness or intuitiveness of it.

 

What I'm thinking about, and how this may be confusing is:

 

In Recall mode, let's say you are on snapshot 2, make some changes, perhaps you go into stomp mode and disable or enable something, and then go back to snapshot mode. All good - snapshot 2 reflects the change.

 

Then you switch to another snapshot - say snapshot 3.

 

If in Recall mode, at that point, your snapshot 2 change is still in memory and when you switch back to snapshot 2, what you changed previously will still be retained.

 

But where are you suggesting the double-tap or prolonged tap in order to discard? Would that be when you switch *away* from snap 2 to snap 3? Or when you switch from snap 3 *back* to snap 2? And is it then that your changes to snap 2 is discarded?

 

So - when are the changes discarded, when switching away or switching back?

 

Neither method seems particularly intuitive.

 

I'd almost suggest that Recall acts just like Recall now. Except, using the example above, if you have made a change, switch away, then switch back, while you are *on* snap 2, then maybe do a double tap or extended tap on snap 2 - the snapshot you are on - to go back to what it was before - thus engaging Discard. I think that would be pretty intuitive. *** In fact, re-reading your suggestion more closely - it sounds like this might be what you are proposing. If so, yeah, I think that would be great idea and also work intuitively. Just my own preference, but I'd prefer an extended tap, I think that might keep me from accidentally pressing it twice quickly and thus accidentally discarding.

 

But otherwise, Recall works just like Recall now, except when you do an extended tap while on the snapshot you want your changes discarded. I think that'd be great. I'd vote it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After listening to everyone's suggestions this is the notion that comes to mind for me. I heard the following concerns and they all make sense to me although I suppose depending on the particulars of how the hardware/firmware of the Helix switches are implemented some of these concerns might turn out to be non-issues

 

Possible issues with method for invoking Discard/Recall:

Double Tap - easy to tap twice by accident and invoke state change accidentally, also potential latency on switching as firmware is waiting for second tap

Tap & Hold - again possible latency as software waits to see whether there is a "tap" or a "tap and hold", or latency as firmware waits for sufficient hold time on the footswitch to indicate a state change request

Second consecutive tap (differentiated from a Double tap) - Again this method could easily be invoked accidentally

 

 

I think now my preferred method would be the following. This could be a third option, a mode e.g. "Hybrid" that would be an addition to the current "Discard" and "Recall" modes. I suppose it could also just be the default action for the "Recall" mode. 

"Hybrid Mode" - Operates similarly to "Recall" mode does now. However, I would make successive, consecutive clicks (not double-clicks) on a snapshot alternate between the 'Discard" and the 'Recall' versions of the snapshot. This would work as follows. Switch away to another snapshot and come back to your initial snapshot and any changes you made to the default settings in your initial snapshot will have been retained (current Helix behavior for the "Recall" mode). However, hit the same snapshot switch again and your default values for that snapshot are reloaded. Hit the same snapshot footswitch another time and you go back to your modified("Recall") version of the snapshot, hit it again and you are back at the default("Discard") values for the snapshot.....ad infinitum. This would allow you to go back and forth between your default("Discard") and your modified("Recall") version of the snapshot. Would be darn handy for doing tone comparisons too; sort of a very limited undo/redo capability.

 

The only potential drawback I see to this method is if you accidentally tapped twice you might end up with the "Discard" rather than the "Recall" version of your snapshot but simply tapping again would return you back to the "Recall" version. Of course this all presupposes that the Helix could dynamically "remember" both your default and modified states of each snapshot but that is essentially what it is doing now with the static versions of the snapshots already.

 

 

 

More detailed example of proposed behavior:

  1. Snapshot 1 phaser default = bypassed
  2. Activate phaser in Snapshot 1
  3. Switch to Snapshot 2
  4. Return to Snapshot 1; the phaser is still activated which was not the default for Snapshot 1
  5. Click again on Snapshot 1; the snapshot reloads its default values and phaser is bypassed per the snapshot's default settings
  6. Click again on Snapshot 1; your modified values from prior snapshot changes are restored and phaser is activated again
  7. Rinse and repeat, each successive click switches between "Discard" and "Recall" values.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My initial reaction is that while this proposal makes sense logically, it's a bit fiddly. Simpler might be better.

 

A variation I've thought of before is just that if you're in Recall mode, a second press of the current snapshot recalls the saved version of it. Just that, no other state management.

 

Alternatively, that second press recalls the saved state of the entire patch, all snapshots. Most flexible version would be a global setting saying whether a second press does nothing, reverts the current snapshot, or reverts the whole patch.

 

Plusses of those are that they're easy to understand, no double- or long-click delay, and there's less state you have you remember but can't see.

 

Biggest downside I can see is unintentionally invoking it if you aren't thinking about it and press the current snap just because it's where you want to be. If you find that happening to you a lot, the feature might not be for you, just turn off that global setting.

 

What do folks think about that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My initial reaction is that while this proposal makes sense logically, it's a bit fiddly. Simpler might be better.

 

A variation I've thought of before is just that if you're in Recall mode, a second press of the current snapshot recalls the saved version of it. Just that, no other state management.

 

Alternatively, that second press recalls the saved state of the entire patch, all snapshots. Most flexible version would be a global setting saying whether a second press does nothing, reverts the current snapshot, or reverts the whole patch.

 

Plusses of those are that they're easy to understand, no double- or long-click delay, and there's less state you have you remember but can't see.

 

Biggest downside I can see is unintentionally invoking it if you aren't thinking about it and press the current snap just because it's where you want to be. If you find that happening to you a lot, the feature might not be for you, just turn off that global setting.

 

What do folks think about that?

I don't think the "recalling the whole patch" part is needed - because you can already to that by just reloading the patch. Otherwise, sounds fine to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or - elaborating slightly on zooey's post above - while on a snapshot in recall mode, press again to go back to the patch's saved setting. Press another time to go back to the modified (but not yet saved setting). That would have the added benefit of quickly comparing snapshot changes by flipping back and forth between them. And if you accidentally press it twice, just press it a third time to get back to where you were. That sounds really good to me.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or - elaborating slightly on zooey's post above - while on a snapshot in recall mode, press again to go back to the patch's saved setting. Press another time to go back to the modified (but not yet saved setting). That would have the added benefit of quickly comparing snapshot changes by flipping back and forth between them. And if you accidentally press it twice, just press it a third time to get back to where you were. That sounds really good to me.

 

Maybe my explanation got too convoluted, this is exactly what I was proposing. Two states the default("Discard") and modified("Recall"), consecutive presses alternate back and forth between them. Simple and easy to invoke or get back to either state with the added benefit of being able to compare changes to the default.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're of course right about not needing discard for the whole patch, that's covered.

 

I like the idea of toggling the current snapshot between its saved and modified states. Simple and effective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

 

A variation I've thought of before is just that if you're in Recall mode, a second press of the current snapshot recalls the saved version of it. Just that, no other state management.

 

...

 

What do folks think about that?

I think this is great. Despite my overly complicated post this was actually exactly what I was proposing. Thank you zooey and bsd512 for expressing it in a much more concise manner.

 

Btw, the reason I got a bit long-winded about the behavior is I was trying to demonstrate that moving between footswitches would retain the current "Recall" behavior but that alternating on the same switch would give you the choice of "Recall" or "Discard". Seems in retrospect I could have said that in one line though  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the great ideas and feedback folks. Please keep the ideas coming. I guess I will put an idea up in Ideascale with your suggestions as to implementation and hopefully leave it up to Line6 to pick the best way to do it. The overarching concept being to make either "Recall" or "Discard" be easily accessible on the fly during a performance.

 

Bazinga...  I can see where this could be really really useful where you need to tweak a snapshot due to a venue or whatever...  but when it's time to go, you want it back to original "saved" version.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe my explanation got too convoluted, this is exactly what I was proposing. Two states the default("Discard") and modified("Recall"), consecutive presses alternate back and forth between them. Simple and easy to invoke or get back to either state with the added benefit of being able to compare changes to the default.

Perfect!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried as much as possible to incorporate the concise verbiage and suggestions everyone provided as I could in an Ideascale entry for this and still managed to make it wordier than I would have liked. I hope the idea is able to convey the concept to both the experienced users who are already familiar with the existing snapshot modes as well as someone who may be newer to those options. Feel free to make clarifying comments and thanks again everyone for the assist. Ideas, sometimes you need to go it alone and some times, like this one, it takes a village (please resist temptation here to make village idiot joke :D ).

Vote it up here!
https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Enhance-Snapshot-switching-modes/891389-23508

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HO, I thought you were proposing that the whole operating mode would switch between Recall and Discard. That's what I thought might be too hard to keep track of. Just switching the current snapshot between its modified and saved states sounds great.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you were to use a Double tap like this:

 

1) First tap... prepare to save the current snapshot settings replacing the original setting.

2) Second Tap (within "x" seconds)... recall the original snapshot setting 

 

** If any other button is pressed between 1 and 2 then proceed with 1)  i.e save the current setting immediately and then do whatever the new button wants

 

...then it should work without causing any undue delay..  it could work as fast as you can double tap.... or if you set the "x" parameter to 5 seconds then you could prepare Helix to recall the original setting by hitting it once and then hit the button again to recall it instantly.

 

Would that work?  

 

EDIT:

 

It could even work like this:

1)  First tap - Save current snapshot settings instantly (but store the original settings in a temporary buffer)

2)  Second Tap (within "x" seconds - recall original settings from buffer)

 

Lots of interesting ideas on implementation in this post! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bazinga...  I can see where this could be really really useful where you need to tweak a snapshot due to a venue or whatever...  but when it's time to go, you want it back to original "saved" version.

 

The nice thing about being able to alternate back and forth between the modified and default snapshot settings is you can save either one before you switch away from the preset. You might decide you want your modified snapshot to be the default next time you pull that preset up. Or, as you suggest, don't save and leave the snapshot in its original state. Either way you can take advantage of the sort of limited redo/undo functionality this new change would offer to help design your snapshots/presets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The nice thing about being able to alternate back and forth between the modified and default snapshot settings is you can save either one before you switch away from the preset. You might decide you want your modified snapshot to be the default next time you pull that preset up. Or, as you suggest, don't save and leave the snapshot in its original state. Either way you can take advantage of the sort of limited redo/undo functionality this new change would offer to help design your snapshots/presets.

 

Egggssssactly !!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Voted it up! And, commented with a link back to this thread for Line 6's easy reference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...