Helix makes me paranoid– Block-Switch-Revolution!

[katerlouis]

The problem:

Blocks can contain up to 4 pages of settings. Wow! That’s a lot. So many blocks per patch. Wow! So many settings! 

I’m not an expert in sound and spend quite some time to get satisfying results. The joystick is my best friend here; constantly up, left, left, down– DOH! I rotated the dial … and turning it back faster than the Flash doesn't bring my settings back..

 

The result:

I live in a crazy love-hate-relationship with this precious joystick. My best friend and worst foe at the same time. Getting hurt so many times made me smash this save button like a lunatic! 

 

Suggested Solutions:

1) UNDO: always saving in fear of accidentally dialing the joystick and losing the settings is no fun. In the "Action menu" slot 6 would be perfect for an UNDO feature. Pressing it would stay in action menu in case I want to go Undo even further. Nice! Maybe Redo on slot 5 aswell? A short highlight / or focus on the redone block as indicator would be good aswell. 

2) DISABLE JOYSTICK DIAL: option in global settings that dial turning doens’t switch blocks. 

2b) DIALING WITH MODIFIER: option in global settings that dial turning only switches blocks while pressing / holding HOME 

3) DIAL > FLASH > CONFIRM: Dialing highlights / visually elevates the block like in "action-menu-mode", indicating that it still "needs to be pressed down again" to actually  get the new block assigned. Meaning: Dial switch needs a joystick press to confirm. Anything else would restore the former status of the slot (former block or blank space).

 

Suggestion 1) would definitely be handy in general, but I like 3) the most and think the visual indication of flashing / switching between elevation and grounded is strong and clear enough to communicate a required confirm. And even if the user forgets a 100 times to confirm the newly dialed in block; he would never lose an hour or more of work.

 

 

The other problem:

I press the joystick-knob to enter the block-browser. Almost any action from here instantly overwrites my precious block. Wow! I just wanted to browse. Do we really want to force the user to go to a blank spot just to browse? But even then: I just wanted to browse, and don’t insert the block; so I really have to go back all the way up to „X None“? No way to cancel?

 

Suggested Solution:

4) Add some way of canceling. Home button? (Although I think this is not obvious enough, too passive and therefore too weak)

5) just like in 3) a block only gets inserted by pressing the joy-stick knob down. Profit!

 

Although I highly suggest to making 3) & 5) the default behavior I see that this would lollipop of people already working with it for 2 years. I’m cool with hiding it behind a global setting alá „Confirm new blocks with Joystick-Press“.

 

As it is now, I get really paranoid to lose my settings while working on presets (no joking this time). Not a nice feeling :(

[DunedinDragon]

Although I've had my share of problems inadvertantly turning the joystick when I try to move it, I'm not sure there's a fix other than disabling turning that's going to work for everyone.

 

First off, I'm sure there's a lot of people like myself that browse blocks in order to audition them as we roll through the options.  Even though this changes the patch, you can always undo anything by simply a different patch then returning to the patch you're working on as long as you haven't saved anything.  I suppose an UNDO operation could easily be implemented that would incorporate the same kind of action as just loading the last saved version.  But I'm not sure an action like you outlined in 5) would feel natural.  Just a simple UNDO operation that restores the last saved version would be the least intrusive option.

[katerlouis]

Firstly, your concern that solution 3) won't suite everyone is why I said: Hide 3) behind a global setting for people like me. 

 

Secondly, I don't see a reason why dialing and therefore "temporarily elevating the block in wait to get confirmed" would not apply the sound of this temp block to the chain. The former block just needs to be stored in the background and gets reapplied when the new block gets canceled in any way. Be it pressing HOME or just moving to another block with the JOYSTICK.

Again: I imagine 3) to still change the sound, so browsing doesn't change at all.

 

Undoing by patch switching does not only undo this last "dial mistake". It changes everything back to the last save state. And that can be infinite changes later.

Spamming save after every change when you are clumsy as me may be a workaround, but absolutely cannot be called a solution in my opinion.

[DunedinDragon]

My concern continues to be that what I don't want is a FAT Helix...in the same way the Windows and most other full-fledged OS's have become.  The Helix at this point is a pretty responsive and stable system and that's because it's not a big fat OS with lots of underlying functions.  It's a simple dedicated real-time system with most of it's processing dedicated to the business at hand which is modeling components and routing signal paths, which makes it responsive and pretty darn stable.

 

Unfortunately people have gotten used to the ease and capabilities of larger, full operating system and tend to want to incorporate those visual interface ease of use functions into the Helix due to the advanced interface Helix has which has many functional similarities to these type of systems.  There's a reason why people choose dedicated real-time hardware solutions to PC or Mac based platforms that could do the same thing as Helix...and that's for the stability and responsiveness that comes from a streamlined real-time system.  Especially when there is no memory or CPU upgrade path save a whole new piece of hardware.

 

Given the hazards of a FAT Helix, I'd personally prefer to simply remember to hit my save button more often than add a bunch of code that has to be built from the ground up (since there are no underlying API layers you can depend on) and potentially introduce instability and slow responsiveness.

 

I'm all for better functionality as it relates to what the Helix is used for...such as more robust stock cabinets, or better IR management, etc.  I can't get too excited about ease of use stuff.  Given the competition, Helix holds it's own quite well in that regard.

[katerlouis]

This seems to be a "agree-to-disagree-situation". 

I don't see my request as a luxury-feature for spoiled PC / Mac users.

It is not just that potential mistakes result in a loss of time. It may be that I cannot get the exact sound back, that I just had right. Probably not the biggest deal breaker for advanced and experienced sound-people; but definitely really frustrating when results come from trial and error. Having to think about and constantly keeping track of "when did I last save?" distracts from what I was going to do.

 

One of the biggest reasons I prefer the Helix over Spider V is that it takes so much back and forth away, when it comes to building sounds. This would be so much stronger with a "confirm-new-block" approach.

 

Although I see where your argument comes from, I absolutely think some way to prevent my settings getting lost by a simple mishandling of a fairly complex knob is worth it.

Do you know how the Helix is programmed, when you say "no underlying API"? I'd love to hear a Line6-Gurus opinion if "store former (confirmed) block in background and wait with overwriting until joystick is pressed" would really result in a "FAT Helix"–

[rvroberts]

I can see your point and at the start of my Helix exploration, I had some similar pain.

That is why I embraced the editor as soon as it was useful!

I just can't imagine going back to editing on the controls! I fact I've pretty much forgotten how!

You can make changes and do saves - you can keep a folder of backups so at any stage of the process so you can go back easily - you got to use the editor to back up and update anyhow - just get used to it - it has a slight update visually thing some people get frustrated with, but the actual changes are almost instantaneous - and I love it!

You still can't access all your globals......which I think is a bit of a cop out - but day to day that's little concern.

Seriously, I know they sell the Helix on how fantastic it is to edit your patches on the "user friendly" device- but you sound like you don't find editing on it a joy - and neither did I - use the Editor!

[PeterHamm]

Use the computer editor!

[phil_m]

You just gotta be be free when editing, man... It's only settings on effects and whatnot... You're not dialing in settings for the moon landing.

[PeterHamm]

You just gotta be be free when editing, man... It's only settings on effects and whatnot... You're not dialing in settings for the moon landing.

 

 Think of it as a balance between art and science leaning WAY more heavily towards art.

[duncann]

You just gotta be be free when editing, man... It's only settings on effects and whatnot... You're not dialing in settings for the moon landing.

 

Damn. And here I always thought we all were tweaking cosmological constants.

[phil_m]

Damn. And here I always thought we all were tweaking cosmological constants.

 

[bsd512]

Secondly, I don't see a reason why dialing and therefore "temporarily elevating the block in wait to get confirmed" would not apply the sound of this temp block to the chain. The former block just needs to be stored in the background and gets reapplied when the new block gets canceled in any way. Be it pressing HOME or just moving to another block with the JOYSTICK.

 

If something like this were implemented - a specific "save/confirm" might work. But just moving to another block to do the save would not - any time I've accidentally changed a block using the joystick and accidentally rotating it a little at the same time has been while I am rapidly moving across blocks to get to the block that I want to want change or look at. In that case, slightly rotating the joystick on an intervening block would not prevent that accident because I've already moved to the next block in the chain before I can react and "cancel" the change. So a positive "confirm" button might work, but not the second option of "save when you move away from the block". Just my opinion of course.

 

Since I've owned the Helix for over a year now, though, I can't even remember the last time I've made this mistake. Your fingers get used to the light touch needed and it just doesn't remain a problem for very long. So while I got bitten by this a couple of times early on, it's not a problem for me now. Your fingers and brain will adapt. That's been my experience anyway.

[katerlouis]

The editor surely has some advantages (keyboard, obviously; backing up, moving whole sets; import / export; model pictures)

But when it comes to fiddling around with parameters, the Baby-knob-dials on the Helix itself are pure sugar! Anyhow– there will be times when you edit on the Helix itself, so I'm not giving up on this idea :)

 

So a positive "confirm" button might work, but not the second option of "save when you move away from the block". Just my opinion of course.

 

That's exactly what I'm saying! We have an misunderstanding here, I guess :)

 

Final example:

Imagine a freshly saved preset with a nice delay, called Block A. Next I want to try out some other delays, therefore I move to Block A and turn the joystick-dial. Block A is now switched out with Block B, which directly alters the sound. The only thing that permanently "locks" Block B in this position is pressing down the joystick. Anything else deletes Block B and sets Block A back into it's place.

So moving away from an unconfirmed block (Block B in this example) immediately restores the initial block that otherwise would have been overwritten.

I fiddle around with parameters from Block B (still unconfirmed!), and decide to move on to Block C, so I turn the dial. Block B and it's parameters are gone for good now. 

I go on with this up to Block G, where I decide this is what I want. I press the joystick-dial down, Block G is confirmed and locked into place. Block A is now deleted and gone for good.

 

What now is debatable:

Does changing the parameters also requires a final confirm? It would be more consequent, once introduced to the confirmation-thingy.

I'd say dialing the six baby-knobs on accident is highly unlikely, compared to the joystick-dial. So for speed / user convenience I wouldn't require baby-dial changes to be confirmed. 

Only block switches.

 

Let's get a Line6-developer on the phone! I'm getting more and more curious how complicated this actually would be :D

[PiFromBRC]

Use the computer editor!

What he said.  The problem has been solved for quite a while.  If you're turning the knob or bumping the stick in a given direction inadvertently the problem disappears immediately.  I use the joystick when needed, such as when auditioning IRs, but aside from that it is all comp interface.  Your back will thank you.

[HonestOpinion]

Or you can just embrace our simian ancestry, abandon the Editor and the knobs completely and use the "Pedal Edit" mode which requires feet only... :)

[mdmayfield]

I took the outer knob off of the main joystick encoder, making it much harder to turn accidentally.

 

All the same, in my opinion this crazy joystick/rotary/pushbutton hybrid is the #1 most serious design/usability flaw in an otherwise excellent, excellent product.

[HonestOpinion]

I took the outer knob off of the main joystick encoder, making it much harder to turn accidentally.

 

All the same, in my opinion this crazy joystick/rotary/pushbutton hybrid is the #1 most serious design/usability flaw in an otherwise excellent, excellent product.

 

Hate to say it but I kind of agree with you, not my favorite navigation device.  I have always preferred the arrangement Roland uses with a recessed dial that spins (can't be damaged by kicking) surrounded by four action buttons. The dial is very easy to spin and the action buttons are right there where you want them for easy, even one-handed, operation.

 

[rzumwalt]

Hate to say it but I kind of agree with you, not my favorite navigation device.  I have always preferred the arrangement Roland uses with a recessed dial that spins (can't be damaged by kicking) surrounded by four action buttons. The dial is very easy to spin and the action buttons are right there where you want them for easy, even one-handed, operation.

Yeah, but how are you going to get that satisfying metallic "clunk clunk" without the joystick? I can't go back to lesser buttons that go "click click" or worse, "erf erf" when they've lost all clicking power. Just kidding, it annoys the crap out of me as well. Many late night editing binges have unceremoniously ended with me dropping to my knees Platoon style and crying out, "I'm ruined...RUINED...!" 

[chuskey]

Use the computer editor!

This!  From the XT Live days I've always preferred the computer editor.  I realize the Helix UI is MILES ahead of older units, but I still think it's just easier to edit with a mouse.  

 

I have also had an issue with accidentally rotating the joystick when trying to just move up/down/left/right.  

 

BTW, I absolutely think an undo feature would be great.  Even with the computer editor it would be useful.  

[bobthedog]

The editor is like a nightmare on my mac though, the sliders have about a second lag it just isn't useable.

 

With the joystick I always save the patch before touching it!

[PeterHamm]

The editor is like a nightmare on my mac though, the sliders have about a second lag it just isn't useable.

 

With the joystick I always save the patch before touching it!

 

 

Frankly, I agree with your sentiment. I find SOME things (like anything requiring typing) to be nice on the Editor, but one of the reasons I'm glad I have the rack is that I don't have to bend over to use the already perfect UI on the actual unit.

[katerlouis]

Setting up my sounds I always use the Helix on the table. No need to press the stomps with the foot during the sound-finding-process.

Although the editor has advantages, I still like the hardware more.

 

0) The editor on Mac is really pixelated; http://line6.com/support/topic/26747-helix-editor-only-low-resolution-on-retina-macbook-pro/

1) Huge delay/lag from editor to Helix

2) Mouse dragging the parameters simply isn't as responsive .. highly subjective, but I feel like I'm more precise with the knobs; 

3) Assigning foot switches is way easier (and cooler) by long-touching the stomps.

 

Another thing that bothers me with the editor.. In the Spider V remote app you can work on patches with no hardware connected to it, and then save it into the Cloud. Since for the Helix there are way more possibilities and therefore more work for your tired mouse hand, it would be great if you could do that maybe while being on the train. :D

[rvroberts]

Seems those who don't like the editor on a computer don't like the delay.

Well, if you get everything you want from the Helix controls - you don't need the editor.

But I suspect that is many people not using the computer for its strength as a computer.

You can use folders in the interface to keep multiple slight variations of a patch as you tweak away - so it's never hard to go back (nothing to do with using the Helix - its to do with managing files on a computer). You can load 10 variations into some empty slots on your Helix and flick through them to see what really works. You can have the same patch with a batch of different IRs.

Let me explain - I have a folder that is just for tests - copy patch_v1, then make a change, then copy patch_v2 etc - none of it is taking up any space on the Helix until I decide to run some side by side comparisons.

You need to know that you might want to do that before you start if you are editing on the Helix itself. And it is definitely more time consuming to do file management on the Helix. I also find I feel that I am able to get a finer control - even if I have to resort to numbers sometimes.

There are problems that are computer/Helix related.....USB connectivity of the Helix seems a bit flaky - it works 100% perfect with my Laptop (Macbook Pro) but often won't even connect with my iMac - so you obviously need a good solid USB experience - and maybe - I'm not using your gear so I can't compare - your experience regarding delay is different to mine......

But I love the editor!

[spikey]

I deal with the wee bit of lag and use the editor exclusively. 

[DunedinDragon]

I use the editor application only at home to restore/save patches and IRs.  It's not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just faster for me to work on the Helix itself.  I've had many systems that have external PC apps and I always end up just using the native interface.  Primarily that's because it makes it easier to adjust things at rehearsal and gigs because I'm familiar with all of the functions and I never have to carry a laptop or notebook with me.

[katerlouis]

Primarily that's because it makes it easier to adjust things at rehearsal and gigs because I'm familiar with all of the functions and I never have to carry a laptop or notebook with me.

 

Very good point. Same goes for me.

So all we now need is an UNDO or CONFIRM feature 8)