Jump to content
Bangha

Tuner

Recommended Posts

Glad to see that "Tuning" is still a polarizing subject. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So that video should prove what? I'd rather tuning in the ballpark with my own ears than tuning that way. That was, at least, a tuning with a possible error range in between -13/+13 cents. May be good if you play some two finger boxed powachords, but sorry no, doesn't work.

 

I see the jumpiness, I see the tuner being late all the time, and in the rushed out double check I've seen the tuner being wrong on the first attempt...and also without listening the notes and some chords, how do you know was in tune?

 

Really guys, is that video showing a good tuner for you?

 

Oh well, I'm for sure OCD!  :lol:  :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So that video should prove what? I'd rather tuning in the ballpark with my own ears than tuning that way. That was, at least, a tuning with a possible error range in between -13/+13 cents. May be good if you play some two finger boxed powachords, but sorry no, doesn't work.

 

I see the jumpiness, I see the tuner being late all the time, and in the rushed out double check I've seen the tuner being wrong on the first attempt...and also without listening the notes and some chords, how do you know was in tune?

 

Really guys, is that video showing a good tuner for you?

 

Oh well, I'm for sure OCD! :lol: :lol:

Huh? I'm confused... How are figuring +/- 13 cents? As long as the bottom green bar is lit up, which it stays for that video, that means the string is already in tune within a +/- 3 cent range. I doubt that many classical musicians could even detect if a string is 3 cents off from pitch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I certainly didn't mean it as an insult...I meant is as humor.  But apparently it missed that train.....

 

...

 

No worries, that ever present pitfall in which the written word can fail to convey facial expression or tone of voice. I can definitely see where not only would the "OCD" comment have have been funny in conversation but might well have been just the kind of joke I would have made. Just struggling to find humor with this tuner, so it is welcome to some extent. No offence taken and thanks for the clarification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So that video should prove what? I'd rather tuning in the ballpark with my own ears than tuning that way. That was, at least, a tuning with a possible error range in between -13/+13 cents. May be good if you play some two finger boxed powachords, but sorry no, doesn't work.

 

I see the jumpiness, I see the tuner being late all the time, and in the rushed out double check I've seen the tuner being wrong on the first attempt...and also without listening the notes and some chords, how do you know was in tune?

 

Really guys, is that video showing a good tuner for you?

 

Oh well, I'm for sure OCD!  :lol:  :lol:

 

Have to agree with the comment about "rushed double check". I wanted to see more time spent on repeated confirmations of the tuning as well although I do want to acknowledge the fact that fenderod was doing his best to try to show that he was able to tune quickly. The two test requirements - tuning quickly and also demonstrating that your tuning is repeatable, accurate, and stable are somewhat at odds with each other but I hope the next video does keep the confirmation process in mind. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh? I'm confused... How are figuring +/- 13 cents? As long as the bottom green bar is lit up, which it stays for that video, that means the string is already in tune within a +/- 3 cent range. I doubt that many classical musicians could even detect if a string is 3 cents off from pitch.

 

If for you those chords at the end of the video, are in tune... then we speak different stuff... and this would explain why we never catchup.

 

If I do the same, as in the video, without double/triple checking each string (and fine tune), at the end I get a rubbish tuning. My theory is that the Helix it's not working as per specs, but with less precision, something like -3/+3 cents, and everything inside that Delta is making the tuner jumping back and forward...and on top of that I do perceive an input lag, so the readout it's not relative to the actual tuning.

 

To me it's all in the precision (imho not matching the specs) and the input lag/interface so when I get a green blink I could be already after that. I'm a broken record on this as I'm pretty sure it's all about that, and this is why the Helix tuner (IMHO) can't be used for mute tuning. The video proves that, to my ears. Guitar it is not in tune.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just did that picture on the fly, to show you what I mean;

 

Same signal, this -3.6 should be "spotted" by the Helix, but looks it doesn't care to much. Sometimes it does catch up, sometimes it does not. 

 

post-313650-0-38672000-1496171298.jpg

post-313650-0-38672000-1496171298_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just did that picture on the fly, to show you what I mean;

 

Same signal, this -3.6 should be "spotted" by the Helix, but looks it doesn't care to much. Sometimes it does catch up, sometimes it does not. 

 

post-313650-0-38672000-1496171298.jpg

 

That Peterson app reacts so quickly, I imagine that it is much more sensitive to transients than the Helix is. This is one of those things where there are practical limits as to how fast the Helix screen can actual react. The refresh rate on a Helix screen is relatively slow (not exactly sure what it is, but it's no where near what the iPad is). Oddly enough, I have this Peterson app, and I really don't like it... Too jumpy... ;)

 

Bottom line for me is I've been using the Helix tuner for over two years now with multiple bands and multiple instruments, and it's been fine. I've never had any tuning issues. IMO, if it works in the real world, it works. If you don't like it, I suggest you use whatever third party tuner you like and get on with your life for now... just like the Edge...

 

N7KT5pk.jpg

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So that video should prove what? I'd rather tuning in the ballpark with my own ears than tuning that way. That was, at least, a tuning with a possible error range in between -13/+13 cents. May be good if you play some two finger boxed powachords, but sorry no, doesn't work.

 

I see the jumpiness, I see the tuner being late all the time, and in the rushed out double check I've seen the tuner being wrong on the first attempt...and also without listening the notes and some chords, how do you know was in tune?

 

Really guys, is that video showing a good tuner for you?

 

Oh well, I'm for sure OCD!  :lol:  :lol:

Well, for one thing it proves that my new $10 Target smartphone tripod works. I was indeed prioritizing speed over ultimate accuracy, trying to simulate a between-song lull. The chords at the end are as in tune as my guitar gets..which seems to satisfy my two perfect-pitch bandmates....at some point, nut setup/intonation come into play. Someone else can record the next video that shows a more detailed "confirmation process." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is one of those things where there are practical limits as to how fast the Helix screen can actual react. The refresh rate on a Helix screen is relatively slow (not exactly sure what it is, but it's no where near what the iPad is).

 

This is a fair point which would explain why I feel so badly the input lag and also that refresh limit would justify the jumpiness because analysis and readout on the screen are not working 1:1. This means, again, we can't rush the tuning. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

 

Bottom line for me is I've been using the Helix tuner for over two years now with multiple bands and multiple instruments, and it's been fine. I've never had any tuning issues. IMO, if it works in the real world, it works. If you don't like it, I suggest you use whatever third party tuner you like and get on with your life for now... just like the Edge...

 

N7KT5pk.jpg

Your point about the refresh rate is relevant but I am not sure that is the whole picture. Even if the response is delayed somewhat there should be a way to account for it and provide a stable reference point for the tuner where it settles for a moment. Even if slower screen refresh times make it more difficult to tune quickly

 

I am glad that it works for you and others but for many of us it does not. I don't think any of us are going to stop "getting on with our lives over this" although there have been some too-long pauses and muttered expletives as I have struggled onstage with this tuner. ;) Not to mention the time spent writing posts to advocate for tuner improvement.

 

Since you are happily using your Helix tuner for gigs you can probably easily appreciate how much the rest of us would like to enjoy that as well. The alternative is having an unsightly clip-on tuner, not my favorite headstock adornment for anything other than campfire jams, or you can put an external tuner in line or in a send loop (both of these methods require extra cabling and an additional device).

 

If you use an external tuner in line you compromise your direct signal path from guitar to Helix. If you use it in a return loop you have to dedicate a send block and maybe a dedicated footswitch in every preset. Neither are ideal solutions, particularly when there is already a dedicated tuner footswitch and tuner on the Helix. I would rather be using the Helix's beautiful internal tuner, just as you have been able to do. So although your advice is sound and pragmatic - use an external tuner for now, I can't help but still hope that Line6 improves this, to me, very critical feature of the Helix.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has certainly been a long winded discussion from which only one conclusion can be drawn. While the tuner is good for many Helix users It certainly does not work to customer satisfaction, or industry standard for a very large number of us. Whatever the reason may be.

 

The only way to put this to bed is to have Line 6 chip in with their input as they are the only ones who can fix it by making the tuner, just a tuner that works as does every other one in the market. While I understand the restrictions of NDA's I would like to make this an open invitation for Digital Igloo or any other member of the Line 6 team to let us know what L6's stance is on the matter. I think this is relevant enough to, as paying customers, ask for their input and savvy so we can all be in tune with one another. Pun intended.

 

L6 gurus, we're all ears! (perfect pitched ears of course ;) )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you use an external tuner in line you compromise your direct signal path from guitar to Helix. If you use it in a return loop you have to dedicate a send block and maybe a dedicated footswitch in every preset. Neither are ideal solutions, particularly when there is already a dedicated tuner footswitch and tuner on the Helix. I would rather be using the Helix's beautiful internal tuner, just as you have been able to do. So although your advice is sound and pragmatic - use an external tuner for now, I can't help but still hope that Line6 improves this, to me, very critical feature of the Helix.

 

You can easily link an external tuner to whatever Helix output (1/4", XLR, Send 1/2/3/4, Digital, USB 1/2/3/4) and then set the Helix Tuner to re-route your guitar to that output you are using and done. Every time you'll press the Tuner button, the signal will be routed to the external tuner too, so no need to add any block to your presets, and your signal path it's not affected by that, in any way, because there is not any return from the external Tuner. I'm doing that by default, works like a charm. This is where the Helix is totally bananas! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can easily link an external tuner to whatever Helix output (1/4", XLR, Send 1/2/3/4, Digital, USB 1/2/3/4) and then set the Helix Tuner to re-route your guitar to that output you are using and done. Every time you'll press the Tuner button, the signal will be routed to the external tuner too, so no need to add any block to your presets, and your signal path it's not affected by that, in any way, because there is not any return from the external Tuner. I'm doing that by default, works like a charm. This is where the Helix is totally bananas! :)

 

Good point, I forgot about that capability, definitely some excellent design by Line6 there. That does make using an external tuner considerably less painful. Still should not be necessary though. That is what gets me, a brilliantly designed tuner with a fatal flaw that seems eminently fixable.  :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My own Peterson (stroboPlus HD) does stop dead and does NOT jump at all. It just spin, ONE DIRECTION depends if Flat or Sharp, and then stops when you are in tune. After that, if you pick again, you are still there. With the Helix, I can pick same string 10 times, and get 10 different readout, and/or just leave a note ringing for 12 seconds, and get the Helix tuner jumping from flat to sharp to flat to sharp to flat...etc.

 

I can't believe you are really comparing a Peterson to the Helix. :)

 

Of course I'm not asking Line 6 to make the Helix tuner working like a 150$ Peterson Tuner, but at least let's try to be realistic here.

Funny i got the same readout all the time and i can even have it spot oin on Helix tuner for a short while like on a Strobe but then it flips one spot left or right very rare more than one spot.

But then again i am in the same place all the time (my studio) so my guitars dont get exposed to warm or cold wheater or change in humidity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only way to put this to bed is to have Line 6 chip in with their input as they are the only ones who can fix it by making the tuner, just a tuner that works as does every other one in the market. While I understand the restrictions of NDA's I would like to make this an open invitation for Digital Igloo or any other member of the Line 6 team to let us know what L6's stance is on the matter. I think this is relevant enough to, as paying customers, ask for their input and savvy so we can all be in tune with one another. Pun intended.

 

L6 gurus, we're all ears! (perfect pitched ears of course ;) )

I know you're in here somewhere!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Line 6 has got to be aware of the activity in this thread. Having now reached 216 posts, since started on April 24, 2017! Moreover, aside from the 216 posts, this thread has been viewed an astounding 4075 times!

 

The Poll on TGP at https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/helixs-tuner-how-do-you-feel-about-its-stability.1825918/ has accumulated 971 views, and received 89 votes in the first 11 days (May 5 - May 15). By mid May, it had been displaced by newer threads. The results there hover at approximately 58/42 in favor of those satisfied with the Helix's Tuner. The sheer fact that 42 percent of the 89 respondents are dissatisfied with the Helix Tuner is an substantial minority.

 

Should you wish to cast or change your vote, link to the Poll cited above remains valid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally wished they would have made the cents indicator fade in and out instead flashing on or off.  Like some have already mentioned, I just ignore the top row.  I am probably going to throw my Polytune back in the mix because it is 100% reliable.  I just hate packing extra gear I shouldn't need for a gig.

 

That being said, intermittent problems can be some of the hardest to troubleshoot and I'm not holding my breath.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am probably going to throw my Polytune back in the mix because it is 100% reliable. I just hate packing extra gear I shouldn't need for a gig.

 

That's what I did and amen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello all.  I have read a lot of Line 6 Helix Tuner posts since I arrived here.  I have also used Peterson Strobe tuners (my first in in 1968 or 1969 I believe).  I used several foot pedal tuners as well as clip on tuners.  I also had to make sure my instrument(s) had perfect intonation for the tuners to work they way I need them to work or one bad intonated string can frustrate my tuning needs to no end (and I use 18 instruments now over a period of 12 shows ... yes my wife did say I need to stop).  LOL

 

POINT

The tuners all took awhile to get use to,  Eventually I got the darn instrument in tune quicker and quicker to the point that I could then use my ear to make sure it was right.  One thing I did notice back in the 1960s to the 1990s was that for the best experience on stage everyone would use the same tuner.  Not the same type but the same exact one.  Then we all use our ear to make sure based upon the instrument as we work with keyboardists as well as reed and horn and other instruments.  Today we can usually find a good tuner that is close enough in cents to fairly match "perfect tuning" for all (and I do have relative perfect pitch but one of our daughters has perfect pitch and yes I "hate" her .. OK not really hate as I am envious)

 

GOOD NEWS

Line 6 does listen.  I have lived through the Helix tuner being "off", being "too touchy", being "not touchy enough". being "fairly decent", being "usable"  to ... well I think you get my point I hope.

 

FINAL TAKE

I have to adjust my tuning technique to get the current version to work for me at a 3 9s level and having to adjust my methodology can be frustrating but it does work at the 3 9s level for me.  Line 6 will probably always get to the tuner during various versioning paths.

 

END GAME

 I'm neither a fanboy nor a troll.  Keep these tuner threads coming if necessary.  However, for a real positive game plan for me I have sent many requests to support via the bug report feature, phone calls, and emails.  The vast majority I never spoke of in the forum.  Several have provided factual and specific information which ended up correcting items I have read about in this forum as versions came out and bugs were corrected.  Hopefully someday the tuner will be perfect for use without anyone having to use an external tuner but Line 6 does give us that option if and when necessary

 

Have a great day.

 

Just Plain Dennis (no one important and not such a much)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@jpdennis.

Except that I never had to get used to the Polytune Clip or the Snark SN-8. They just... work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@jpdennis.

Except that I never had to get used to the Polytune Clip or the Snark SN-8. They just... work.

True. +1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, never had to get used to any tuner on the market in 40 years of plying professionally.

I pluck the string, the tuner shows me if I'm sharp or flat...and they all did it in a stable reading, except for the helix tuner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's such a relieve to read so many of you are having the same troubles with the tuner, the small accurate bar at the top is impossible to get right and even when it's close the guitar is not in tune. Would love Helix to get it updated, nothing worse than a guitar not tuned correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@jpdennis.

Except that I never had to get used to the Polytune Clip or the Snark SN-8. They just... work.

Simple and effective! I have two of each.
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, another gig this weekend, three different guitars, one of them a Variax, not one of them worked with the Helix tuner. If even a Line6 guitar does not work with a Line6 tuner, something is definitely awry. I even tried ignoring the upper bar entirely because there is no hope of it settling down. Still too jumpy. The tuner is just one of the best looking ones ever designed but is flat out awful and needs fixin'.  A constant source of irritation and an incredibly broken core feature on an otherwise very gratifying and useful device. 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My tener is jumpy aswell, to the point I "almost tune" my guitar with. In stage situation will be a problem...to slow to tune.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried my variax on vdi first time today and was surprised to find the tuner works exactly as I would want it to. Somehow with all my guitars into guitar in I don't have that experience and it jumps all over the place. Unsure why the difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tuner in helix is awful, it even reacts on tone knob! All previous PODs has better tuners..

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/24/2017 at 2:30 PM, HonestOpinion said:

 

LOL. You won't have to run far as you have plenty of fellow users to hide behind who agree with you. The OP's and my opinion appears to be in the minority which never ceases to surprise me as this seems like such a blatant issue to me.  B)

Yep- and I'm in that minority too. 

 

Quote

Every other tuner I use is considerably more stable

 

And has been for me for over 45 years or so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If other tuners are more stable, btw, that can also be an indicator that Helix is more accurate, maybe too accurate... jus' sayin'...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Switching the tuner input to "guitar" and not "multi" seemed to help it tremendously for me. I use the on board tuner most of the time now, but I still have my polytune clips on my headstocks ready to go. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, vypole said:

Tuner in helix is awful, it even reacts on tone knob! All previous PODs has better tuners..

 

What do you mean by, "it even reacts on tone knob"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

What do you mean by, "it even reacts on tone knob"?

 

I'll bet you ten bucks that you're gonna be sorry you asked that question...lol

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I solved the entire Helix tuner problem. It was easy! 
Here's my solution and it will work for everyone: 

I took $3,600 and bought a Gibson Les Paul Standard HP with the G-Force robo-tuners.  Now I'm always in tune. 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, robbieb61 said:

I solved the entire Helix tuner problem. It was easy! 
Here's my solution and it will work for everyone: 

I took $3,600 and bought a Gibson Les Paul Standard HP with the G-Force robo-tuners.  Now I'm always in tune. 

 

Lol, I ripped a set of Tronical tuners off a Gibson Firebird I bought a few months ago, and replaced them with Klusons... Things were never in tune, and I couldn't get it to calibrate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

Lol, I ripped a set of Tronical tuners off a Gibson Firebird I bought a few months ago, and replaced them with Klusons... Things were never in tune, and I couldn't get it to calibrate.

yeah, the year they made them standard on basically everything I remember them sending out standard tuners for replacement to all the dealers who wanted them just so they could sell them. Ws that 2013? Ugh, those were terrible.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know about the older ones. But the newest version of the G-Force tuners work fantastic. 
I strum all the strings at once and boom...it tunes right up. Accurate and fast. I love it! 
It also has ways to program in open tunings. Pretty cool. 
I love this HP series Les Paul Standard. It has titanium zero nut, titanium bridge saddles, cryogenically treated frets (never need a fret job)...and a "soloist" style neck.  I have the mojave fade finish on mine (actual old school nitrocellulose lacquer finish). 
Anyway, just thought I'd post that to interject some humor (just spend $3,600 and problem solved! lol)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×