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4 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

What do you mean by, "it even reacts on tone knob"?

 

different results with guitar tone turning knob and pickups switching. kemper, pod hd500, X3Live and other 3 tuners that i have does not behave that way

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13 minutes ago, vypole said:

 

different results with guitar tone turning knob and pickups switching. kemper, pod hd500, X3Live and other 3 tuners that i have does not behave that way

 

I don't know about the Kemper tuner, but the Helix's tuner is definitely offers more resolution than the HD500 and X3L. The Helix's tuner display shows you resolution down to 1 cent. The HD500 and X3L are 3 cents I believe. Turning the tone knob down and using the neck pickup is generally a good practice when using any electronic tuner, since that gives a stronger fundamental pitch for the tuner to detect.

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13 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

I don't know about the Kemper tuner, but the Helix's tuner is definitely offers more resolution than the HD500 and X3L. The Helix's tuner display shows you resolution down to 1 cent. The HD500 and X3L are 3 cents I believe. Turning the tone knob down and using the neck pickup is generally a good practice when using any electronic tuner, since that gives a stronger fundamental pitch for the tuner to detect.

when i switch to neck pickup it less jumpy but still has problems with accuracy

anyway switching to neck pickup every time i tune guitar is really annoying, especially for such expensive gear like helix

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6 hours ago, PeterHamm said:

If other tuners are more stable, btw, that can also be an indicator that Helix is more accurate, maybe too accurate... jus' sayin'...

Accuracy includes a resolvable output. The Helix display is sample aliasing to such a degree that you can't claim greater accuracy since it isn't predictably resolvable on the display. The Turbotuner is incredibly accurate and precise (as are many other non-strobe tuners), and yet smooth and easily resolvable visually - even when tuning to the attack which peaks sharp and then predictably flattens over time as the string settles. A tuner can be considered 'stable' as long as it is smooth enough to allow the eye/brain to interpolate the information it needs.

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5 minutes ago, jnysen said:

Accuracy includes a resolvable output. The Helix display is aliasing to such a degree that you can't claim greater accuracy since it isn't predictably resolvable on the display. The Turbotuner is incredibly accurate and precise (as are many other non-strobe tuners), and yet smooth and easily resolvable visually - even when tuning to the attack which peaks sharp and then predictably flattens over time as the string settles. A tuner can be considered 'stable' as long as it is smooth enough to allow the eye/brain to interpolate the information it needs.

 

I honestly have had no problem with the Helix tuner being unpredictable... I've used on all sorts of electrics, acoustics, and mandolins. I've just resolved that the complaints are something I just don't understand.

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Just now, phil_m said:

 

I honestly have no problem with the Helix tuner being unpredictable... I've used on all sorts of electrics, acoustics, and mandolins. I've just resolved that the complaints are something I just don't understand.

 

Yup. My strobe tuner that is very accurate jumps around a bit, too, especially with old strings. Accuracy makes for jumpiness, as a note from a guitar is not very stable, especially if you tune to the attack as you should...

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Coincidental this thread just popped up again. During band rehearsal this very evening my bass player looked over at me tuning using the Helix and said, and I quote "That is the jumpiest tuner I have ever seen, how do you tune on that thing?".  Yes I have the tuner input set to only "Guitar" and I explained to him how to keep his eye primarily on the bottom bar instead of the top. Still... when the instability on the tuner is so evident that other players in the band notice and comment on how poorly the tuner is behaving it is definitely an issue . I use the Helix exclusively for live performance due to its embarrassment of riches in other departments but for the love of all things musical, please fix the bloody tuner already.

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When L6 brought over the legacy effects from the M series pedal boards, they should have considered bringing the M’s tuner as well. My M13 tuner is far more user friendly (stable) than my Helix.

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36 minutes ago, surfsup1955 said:

When L6 brought over the legacy effects from the M series pedal boards, they should have considered bringing the M’s tuner as well. My M13 tuner is far more user friendly (stable) than my Helix.

Perhaps it's less granular (+/- 3c or more instead of the 1c in Helix)... in which case it very well may appear more stable.

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I don't know about the Kemper tuner

 

You should look at one Phil. It would change your definition on what a good tuner acts, feels and looks like.

 

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Accuracy makes for jumpiness

 

No, jumpiness makes for jumpiness... Please get that Line-6 brown stuff off the end of yer nose Hamm... ; )

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6 minutes ago, spikey said:

No, jumpiness makes for jumpiness... Please get that Line-6 brown stuff off the end of yer nose Hamm... ; )

 Incorrect, sir. on both points.

I'm not saying some people shouldn't use a different tuner. Nothing, for instance, is as awesome for me as my StroboStomp.

But many of the issues about tuner "accuracy" and "stability" are simply the nature of the beast of a very accurate and granular tuner.

 

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But many of the issues about tuner "accuracy" and "stability" are simply the nature of the beast of a very accurate and granular tuner.

 

Maybe you are correct in a way Hamm. But I think most of us want a "guitar tuner", not a granular tuner.

 

And other tuners (like the one in a Kemper) that most everyone has used in the past, are very accurate without being so damn jumpy.

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6 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

Maybe you are correct in a way Hamm. But I think most of us want a "guitar tuner", not a granular tuner.

 

And other tuners (like the one in a Kemper) that most everyone has used in the past, are very accurate without being so damn jumpy.


How many of them have that pesky top line that I think, frankly, causes half of these people's problems? Honestly. Ignore it and it behaves like most tuners (this is easy when you have Rack/Control, just ignore the rack and look at Control...)

Also, anybody who is banging on their strings too hard to tune or not hitting them hard enough... and anyone who isn't tuning to the attack... if you're out of tune, no matter what tuner you are using, it ain't the tuner's fault. Almost as bad as setting intonation on a guitar that is lying flat... don't do that either... Oh, and old strings? they don't tune well... but y'all know all that, right???

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I don't think the tuner is as great as a polytune 2 for example, which I was using before. It's pretty jumpy, but I can deal with that. My main problem with the tuner is that it just does not properly register on 5 string basses. I use a drop-A tuning on my 5 strings, which is basically just tuning the lowest string a full step down. Not that unusual. Helix simply does not register anything lower than the regular B-string. It's pretty annoying having to fret a note on the lowest string just to get the tuner to register, especially since this is not an exotic tuning at all.

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27 minutes ago, PeterHamm said:

 Incorrect, sir. on both points.

I'm not saying some people shouldn't use a different tuner. Nothing, for instance, is as awesome for me as my StroboStomp.

But many of the issues about tuner "accuracy" and "stability" are simply the nature of the beast of a very accurate and granular tuner.

 

 

That's what I've found too. The Peterson Strobe iOS app, for example, is so sensitive that I find it very frustrating to use. It really never stops moving completely. But it's also educational because you can have it display changes down to a tenth of a cent, so it's interesting to see the natural fluctuations after you pluck a string.

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On 4/24/2017 at 2:47 PM, phil_m said:

 

What if people like the tuner the way it is? I mean, I have no problem with it, and there are plenty of others who don't seem to have issues with it? Is it really worth investing a lot of resources into chasing a moving target?

 

I do not recall anyone ever saying they actually like it. It's adequate for my needs, I tolerate it, not all that bad, etc. But never I like it. I personally tolerate it. It would be nice if it was better but I still use it. It can and does, get me in tune. I tolerate it. Not a deal breaker at all for me though.

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I tolerate it, not all that bad, etc. But never I like it. I personally tolerate it. It would be nice if it was better but I still use it. It can and does, get me in tune. I tolerate it. Not a deal breaker at all for me though.

 

My feelings Exactly. And I might add, sugar coating it over the jumpiness doesn't make it (or anything else) better either.

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21 minutes ago, brue58ski said:

 

I do not recall anyone ever saying they actually like it. It's adequate for my needs, I tolerate it, not all that bad, etc. But never I like it. I personally tolerate it. It would be nice if it was better but I still use it. It can and does, get me in tune. I tolerate it. Not a deal breaker at all for me though.

I like it... I honestly do. I have like a half a dozen headstock tuners, and still occasionally use them for acoustic gigs, and I find myself missing the Helix tuner when using them.

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21 minutes ago, brue58ski said:

 

I do not recall anyone ever saying they actually like it. It's adequate for my needs, I tolerate it, not all that bad, etc. But never I like it. I personally tolerate it. It would be nice if it was better but I still use it. It can and does, get me in tune. I tolerate it. Not a deal breaker at all for me though.

I'm on record as saying I like it. I like my StroboStomp2 better, but rarely even get it out anymore when I'm at home. 

When I'm sitting catty-wompus from my Helix (which is normally the case in my small home space) I just use my StroboClip that I like very much, too.

I just don't have the problems with it that many have expressed, and like it just fine. totally disagree that it's better than HD 500 or M13 (both of which I had and used) btw...

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The Helix tuner is the first and ONLY tuner that I've ever had to even CONSIDER whether I "like" it or not. 
That should say it all right there. A guitar tuner has always been a "no-brainer". They just WORK.  
The fact that there are threads like this and endless debate kinda shows that the Helix one is falling short.

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The fact that there are threads like this and endless debate kinda shows that the Helix one is falling short.

 

 

 

Altho it wouldn't solve the tuner issue per say, it might let Line-6 (and everyone else) know where the forum members stand in regards to the way the tuner works in Helix.

 

Put a simple poll up, on whether you like the way the current version of the tuner in Helix works, or you do not.

 

Is that even possible? If so tell me how- I'll do it...

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23 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

 

 

 

Altho it wouldn't solve the tuner issue per say, it might let Line-6 (and everyone else) know where the forum members stand in regards to the way the tuner works in Helix.

 

Put a simple poll up, on whether you like the way the current version of the tuner in Helix works, or you do not.

 

Is that even possible? If so tell me how- I'll do it...

 

It's been done over on TGP: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/helixs-tuner-how-do-you-feel-about-its-stability.1825918/

 

You can start a poll here if you click on the "Ask a question" or "Start New Topic" button. There's a poll tab on the dialog box that comes up.

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22 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

It's been done over on TGP: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/helixs-tuner-how-do-you-feel-about-its-stability.1825918/

 

You can start a poll here if you click on the "Ask a question" or "Start New Topic" button. There's a poll tab on the dialog box that comes up.

 

53 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

 

 

 

Altho it wouldn't solve the tuner issue per say, it might let Line-6 (and everyone else) know where the forum members stand in regards to the way the tuner works in Helix.

 

Put a simple poll up, on whether you like the way the current version of the tuner in Helix works, or you do not.

 

Is that even possible? If so tell me how- I'll do it...

 

Make sure it's not just a love it/ hate it thing. We need a category for "my complete and utter indifference cannot be measured with existing technology" ...;)

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4 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

 

Just make sure it's not just a love it/ hate it thing. We need a "my complete and utter indifference cannot be measured with existing technology" category, too...;)

 

Congress is this close to appointing a special counsel to investigate the Helix tuner...

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1 minute ago, phil_m said:

 

Congress is this close to appointing a special counsel to investigate the Helix tuner...

 

Uh oh...they'll subpoena these threads, and the NSA will "unmask" us all, lol

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Anything to divert from a jumpy tuner issue eh? 

 

BTW, Like shingles, I've got yer special council hangin lol....

 

 

Under the "Start New Topic" button you say? Maybe it's under the Emoticon tab? ; ) Maybe this is a feature on the new forums but I don't see it.

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7 hours ago, PeterHamm said:

 Incorrect, sir. on both points.

I'm not saying some people shouldn't use a different tuner. Nothing, for instance, is as awesome for me as my StroboStomp.

But many of the issues about tuner "accuracy" and "stability" are simply the nature of the beast of a very accurate and granular tuner.

 

 

The issue with the Helix is only tangentially due to the increased granularity. If the tuner displayed the exact offset of the string instantaneously with a display bandwidth greater than the movement of the string/noise of the input signal, then it wouldn't 'jump' around, it would 'move' around. Big difference. One amounts to 'what on earth is going on here', and the other is 'wow this tuner is so accurate I can see the movement of the string'.

 

7 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

That's what I've found too. The Peterson Strobe iOS app, for example, is so sensitive that I find it very frustrating to use. It really never stops moving completely. But it's also educational because you can have it display changes down to a tenth of a cent, so it's interesting to see the natural fluctuations after you pluck a string.

 

A strobe doesn't have to come to a full halt. When tuning quickly on stage, I just let it approach the 'zero' speed as it slows down in a predictable way to how much I turn the knob on the tuning peg. I can very quickly get to that point, as the 'ideal/optimal' tuning peg position is really all I'm after. It might get to zero as it crosses the threshold for a 1/10th of a second or less while I'm spinning the knob. It helps that the Turbotuner is instantaneous, with no frequency discrimination, hysteresis, or hold time between the input and the LED display ring. 

 

On 30/03/2018 at 7:23 AM, PeterHamm said:

 

Yup. My strobe tuner that is very accurate jumps around a bit, too, especially with old strings. Accuracy makes for jumpiness, as a note from a guitar is not very stable, especially if you tune to the attack as you should...

 

I have the Peterson iOS App and also their little headstock tuner. They are sometimes also both a little 'jumpy' compared to a true stroboscopic display. It's like the Petersons are trying to momentarily hold or discriminate the current input frequency as it gets close to zero (or too weak?) until a threshold is reached and then it resamples. It's slight 'jumpiness' is not just because it is 'stroboscopicaly' accurate. But, this might be due to overall sensitivity as I don't plug my guitar directly into either of these devices.

 

Unlike the Turbo, the Petersons don't show the actual input waveform since they transform it into their sliding bar display. The Turbotuner being a full bandwidth display of the input signal is so smooth that I can instantaneously see the actual string change. When it 'jumps' around (usually a sudden small drop in frequency), it's almost always accompanied by the string slipping in the nut to whatever micro degree that happens. As you say, old strings seem to do this more than new ones, but probably because I always lube the nut and saddle when changing strings. I still don't call this 'jumpiness' when tuning, as it's readily apparent the instability is in the strings and guitar, and not an artefact of the tuner.

 

I also tune to the attack, and don't wait 5 seconds for the vibration to completely settle - the longer you let it ring, the more the sympathetic vibrations from the other strings become visible. As that happens, on the Turbo you can sometimes see two separate signals rotating around the display as the primary signal gets weaker. The eye can easily track this and ignore the second - this doesn't happen on the Peterson, so I suspect it is internally trying to discriminate the signals internally prior to displaying the bars.

 

The Helix on the other hand is all over the place compared to the Peterson and the Turbotuner. For me anyway. There's probably an optimal level and input filtration (eg. volume at 3/4, neck pickup, tone rolled back slightly) where it happens less than all knobs wide open. But, I don't like to reset the guitar when checking tuning in the middle of a set. I can deal with the jumpiness because I can still get the guitar sufficiently in tune by guessing the median point as the bars jump around. But, it takes me a little longer than I'd prefer - especially compared to other tuners like the Turbo/Petersons/Polytune/Korg/Boss that I use or have used over the years.

 

On 30/03/2018 at 7:22 AM, phil_m said:

 

I honestly have had no problem with the Helix tuner being unpredictable... I've used on all sorts of electrics, acoustics, and mandolins. I've just resolved that the complaints are something I just don't understand.

 

Clearly you don't have any problems with the Helix tuner, and if you did, you'd probably mention that as an issue while you were beta testing the product. Unfortunately, that is not the experience of many other people including myself.

 

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I'm one of those Helix users who is extremely dissatisfied with the tuner, but I like the Helix o/w. I tried all the "it's you, not the tuner" tricks, but got disgusted and bought a $130 strobe tuner ( https://www.turbo-tuner.com/ ). I configured the Helix to send its tuner output to the TT, which means I have two steps to tune: 1 hold the tuner button on helix, and 2 tap the TT button. (I could leave the TT on but I don't have a AC adapter. It's not an issue,  though.) The strobe display was a little weird at first, but man it's fast, stable, and insanely accurate. I use it for rehearsals and gigs. All other times I use a $10 clip-on, which is *still* better than the Helix (sorry guys).

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2 hours ago, spikey said:

Anything to divert from a jumpy tuner issue eh? 

 

BTW, Like shingles, I've got yer special council hangin lol....

 

 

Under the "Start New Topic" button you say? Maybe it's under the Emoticon tab? ; ) Maybe this is a feature on the new forums but I don't see it.

 

Here's what it looks like for me... There are two tabs available for creating a new post - "Content" and "Poll":

 

dadd2c11-a5c5-47c0-9bb4-f19963d1bc0a.png

 

If you don't see that tab, it might be that it's not available to everyone...

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43 minutes ago, marmatkat said:

I configured the Helix to send its tuner output to the TT

 

You can't anymore, since FW 2.54 :(

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6 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

Here's what it looks like for me... There are two tabs available for creating a new post - "Content" and "Poll":

 

dadd2c11-a5c5-47c0-9bb4-f19963d1bc0a.png

 

If you don't see that tab, it might be that it's not available to everyone...

Interesting- I don't seem to have that and you do. I'm thinking the same thing happened with the tuner... Now if we could just get that nice one you are using.

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59 minutes ago, spikey said:

Interesting- I don't seem to have that and you do. I'm thinking the same thing happened with the tuner... Now if we could just get that nice one you are using.

Lol!  I want that great Helix tuner too! :)

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On 3/30/2018 at 6:31 PM, plexi71 said:

 

You can't anymore, since FW 2.54 :(

 

Really? That sucks. Why would line6 remove that feature? Can someone please comment/verify? Or is there a workaround? Thanks. 

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The Helix tuner is accurate, I have tested it with a frequency generator. It wasn't always accurate but it definitely is now.

 

Saying this I still don't get on with it, it works well with some of my guitars and terribly with others with it jumping all over the place.

 

For me I think they could improve it by having another setting called "Smoothing" which would allow the user to set the time that the tuner would use to average its frequency detection, this would limit the jumping.

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On 3/30/2018 at 6:31 PM, plexi71 said:

 

You can't anymore, since FW 2.54 :(

 

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On 3/30/2018 at 9:44 AM, PeterHamm said:

But many of the issues about tuner "accuracy" and "stability" are simply the nature of the beast of a very accurate and granular tuner.

 

Completely disagree.  Kemper and Fractal tuners are granular and accurate AND stable.  I can't tell you why the Helix tuner acts the way it does, but that's not a valid excuse for it.

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4 hours ago, Karl_Houseknecht said:

 

Completely disagree.  Kemper and Fractal tuners are granular and accurate AND stable.  I can't tell you why the Helix tuner acts the way it does, but that's not a valid excuse for it.

 

Karl this is a non-logical thread and you are just confusing them with facts. They like the tuner. End of story.  ; )

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Tuner in 2.8 blinks when tuning 5 and 6 strings on all guitars(

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