Helix Low End?

[DanielJW]

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of low end when using my Helix. I'm running it through a Mission Gemini 2. To try and take it I usually set the low cut on the cabs between 90-120Hz but there is still quite a lot of bottom end. I've also tried turning the bass down on the amp itself but this can sometimes leave it sounding a little thin. Maybe it's the way I'm running it, through a cabinet as opposed to PA speakers? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to cut some of the low end whilst still sounding "full"? Thanks

[jbuhajla]

There is no universal answer to your question. Some amp models sound more "boomy" than others especially when coupled with particular guitars/pickups. What amp model/guitar/pickups are you using and what type of tone are you looking for?

[DanielJW]

There is no universal answer to your question. Some amp models sound more "boomy" than others especially when coupled with particular guitars/pickups. What amp model/guitar/pickups are you using and what type of tone are you looking for?

That's true, I was just wondering how others set theirs and the models I use the most are the Archetype Lead for an overdrive/lead sounds and a blend of the US Deluxe Nrm/Tweed Blues Brt for edge of break up sounds. I'm using a Fender Stratocaster with single coils.

[jbuhajla]

Ok, we are in the same boat then. I play mostly strats/teles, not any high gain stuff. 

 

Initially I was setting up all my presets using in ear monitors at home. My presets always sounded boomy front of house to our QSC PA system. So I bought a couple of JBL Eon 610s for at home. I put them into "monitor mode" as floor wedges and went over my presets through them at close to live volume. I ended up cutting almost all of my cab/IR blocks at 90-110hz, and high cuts at 5-10khz. I also found myself decreasing the "bass" on some of the amp models I was using, especially the Plexi, Mesa MkIV, and US Deluxe models . After doing that, my presets translated over very well to our PA system live. My sound is pretty thin in the in ears now, but I just ignore it knowing that front of house is good. 

 

So, eq adjustments on the Helix may not follow "normal" procedures as playing through actual amps/effects. Just keep tweaking at it until they sound magical through your Mission system. 

[gunpointmetal]

Fletcher-Munson still works in the digital realm, too. Build your patches at playing volume through your intended playback device, and you should be good. Pretty much all of my live patches are HP ~110 and LP ~7k, with some amps as low 5k. 

[DunedinDragon]

I'm going to take wild guess here but I suspect the Mission Gemini may not have a mode to offset for bass frequency coupling when it's placed on the floor like most of the FRFR powered speakers do.  Do you have your cabinet on the floor or is it on a stand?  Certainly there's going to be some difference between a wood cabinet and a molded cabinet with integral baffles, but I would think a big difference would have been noted by some of the other Gemini users.

[JLondon]

Your FRFR speaker covers (as intended) a broader spectrum than a normal amp speaker/cab so you are just gonna get more bass than a typical guitar speaker cabinet. I use Line 6 Stagesource monitors and have the same problem with every preset. People using their amps via 4 cable method might not have this problem as much. But I still am 100% in favor of FRFR. I prefer to use Helix cabs over IRs with an FRFR system because by the time you cut the bass on an IR enough to compensate, the IR gets too thin and fizzy. I feel the Helix cabs hold up better to more extreme bass cuts. As much as I love the ribbon mics, the FRFR speaker already kind of has that kind of sound and is too boomy when used together. I'm pretty much an SM57 user all the way with stock cabs. Don't be afraid to experiment with the mic distance and reflections adjustments also. They can replace some of the character lost from an extreme cab bass cut. My advice is to not be afraid of cutting the cab or amp mod bass as much as you need to. Do it with your eyes shut so you're not influenced by visual preconceptions. Then use other effects to add eq and/or a clean boost. A boost method I just discovered recently thanks to a shared Gilmour preset someone created, is putting a Helix studio preamp in the chain before your amp mod. It's a DSP hog, but wow! Nothing I've tried to date has proven as useful in getting the tone I've been searching for (so much so that I'm actually considering selling 'all' my analog gear). And I find that what it uses in excess DSP, it 'can' make up for by taking the place of two or more other effects such as EQ, gain boost, clean boost, treble boost, etc. I'm in love with this thing as it replaces that tubey sound that is lost with extreme bass cuts. I don't know if your Mission FRFR has "modes" like those mentioned in other posts to this thread - but I'm passionately in favor of keeping my Stagesource speakers in "reference Pa" mode and adjusting my presets accordingly. Yeah, some other mode might sound better from the start, but for the life of me I can't understand why someone would monitor themselves in one mode while sending the signal to FOH in another. Grinning like a possum on stage because you like what you're hearing while the sound man and audience is hearing something else is insane to me. Well, that's my dime's worth!

[erniedenov]

Initially I was setting up all my presets using in ear monitors at home. My presets always sounded boomy front of house to our QSC PA system. So I bought a couple of JBL Eon 610s for at home. I put them into "monitor mode" as floor wedges and went over my presets through them at close to live volume. I ended up cutting almost all of my cab/IR blocks at 90-110hz, and high cuts at 5-10khz. I also found myself decreasing the "bass" on some of the amp models I was using, especially the Plexi, Mesa MkIV, and US Deluxe models . After doing that, my presets translated over very well to our PA system live. My sound is pretty thin in the in ears now, but I just ignore it knowing that front of house is good. 

 

That's very altruistic of you. Personally, I can't get inspired if I'm hating my sound. I have a setlist for playing with my FRFR speaker and another one for my in-ear monitors (one of the bands I play with doesn't allow amplifiers or monitors on stage and my Helix goes direct to the board). Obviously, both were tweaked for how they're being used and my in-ear setlist sounds great to me and to everybody else in the band, who are hearing what I'm hearing because we're all wearing in-ears. But I have no idea what it's sounding like in FOH and I just keep my fingers crossed that the soundman is doing an adequate job of EQing everything. It's not an issue when I'm playing with other bands and using my FRFR speaker, but it is one with the in-ears. I just can't listen to my FRFR setlist with in-ears; it sounds thin and lifeless.

 

Maybe it wouldn't matter quite as much if I never improvised solos, but I do and I've never been able to play my best (or even at par) if I'm not digging my sound. If there's a solution, I'd love to know what it is.

 

Sorry if I derailed this thread a bit, but I wanted to chime in on what you said because it's something that irks me.

[jbuhajla]

That's very altruistic of you. Personally, I can't get inspired if I'm hating my sound. I have a setlist for playing with my FRFR speaker and another one for my in-ear monitors (one of the bands I play with doesn't allow amplifiers or monitors on stage and my Helix goes direct to the board). Obviously, both were tweaked for how they're being used and my in-ear setlist sounds great to me and to everybody else in the band, who are hearing what I'm hearing because we're all wearing in-ears. But I have no idea what it's sounding like in FOH and I just keep my fingers crossed that the soundman is doing an adequate job of EQing everything. It's not an issue when I'm playing with other bands and using my FRFR speaker, but it is one with the in-ears. I just can't listen to my FRFR setlist with in-ears; it sounds thin and lifeless.

 

I don't trust what's going on FOH, so that's why I live with a less than ideal sound for the in ears (church venue with volunteers running sound). I try to compensate a little with in ears eq (we use Behringer P16s), but I live with it. I'd rather it be sounding on point FOH. I have my channel set flat on the board and I rely on Helix exclusively for my sound/EQing. I do my own sound checks weekly by walking around different areas of the main room with my wireless to ensure everything is sounding good. 

[zooey]

Sounds​ like you need EQ for your in-ears, if you're​ happy w your FOH tones.

[gunpointmetal]

A loud room-filling sound from a speaker isn't going to sound the same run into little tiny earbuds. If you get things sound fat in the IEM, the FOH guy is probably going to have to cut a lot of bass from your channel to compensate for volume. My solution is having one speaker on a pole behind me just loud enough to get a little thump, so I can still "feel" it even when the IEM isn't my ideal tone.

[jbuhajla]

A loud room-filling sound from a speaker isn't going to sound the same run into little tiny earbuds. If you get things sound fat in the IEM, the FOH guy is probably going to have to cut a lot of bass from your channel to compensate for volume. My solution is having one speaker on a pole behind me just loud enough to get a little thump, so I can still "feel" it even when the IEM isn't my ideal tone.

Unfortunately we run totally isolated on stage, so monitors/backline is not an option. I think I just need to fiddle with EQ on my monitor channel only at the board to fatten up IEM a bit, without effecting everyone else. 

 

This is all still relevant to the original post. Be aware of what you are playing Helix through (guitar amp, PA speaker, headphones, etc...) because going from one to the other will sound a lot different. Playing through multiple devices will require a little creativity to get it all to sound "right."

[DanielJW]

Thanks for all your replies, it's really helped me out a lot. I sit the cabinet on an Aurelex Great Gramma V2 which is an acoustic isolation platform, just to try and take the floor out of the equation as much as possible. The Gemini doesn't have an offset mode but it does have an Empower control which alters the response of the speakers from frfr to a more mid focused darker response of a guitar cab, I set it to full frfr to save colouring the sound too much. Thanks to JLondon for suggesting using the Studio Tube Preamp in front of the amp model. It's surprisingly effective, there is so much more clarity and it also seems to have gotten rid of all the rough edges/any harshness that I was experiencing and just sounds great!!! I'd recommend experimenting with the studio preamp before using the cab to cut lows/highs. I just wish I'd have found out about this sooner!