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monkeysqueak

Reverb Weirdness/Bug ?

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So I was just playing around with a very basic path, trying to see where the reverb sounds best (before cabinet, after cabinet, etc.).

 

Using this basic path setup:

 

Amp > Reverb > Cabinet

 

[For the test, I was using the Hall reverb with 8.5 decay and 45% mix settings.]

 

 

When I use the US Deluxe Nrm amp with low gain (4.0) and cranked channel/master volumes, it sounds great... nice rich reverb.  You can distinctly hear the decaying sound after you stop playing.

 

But when I change only the amp to the Line 6 2204 Mod (with gain at 8 and channel/master volumes at 10), there is almost no reverb sound at all (with the exact same reverb and cabinet settings).  There is a very slight amount of reverb, but you definitely cannot hear the decaying sound like the cleaner amp.

 

Something really strange is happening to the reverbs on high-gain amps that are cranked... it's almost as if the reverb disappears!

 

This completely explains why I've had so much trouble trying to get my reverbs to sound normal (I'm a high-gain junkie).

 

Please try this out!

 

 

 

 

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Well, it would be normal in a high gain situation to only use reverb in a studio situation following the rule  - more gain is less reverb.

I personally love reverb with a gained sound, but you use it like a studio recording does - after the amp, cab and Mic.

Try it as the last thing in your chain - you should have great sounding reverb.

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I agree that reverb should be the last thing in the chain, I probably should have mentioned that I started this experiment because it doesn't sound right as the last block on the path (with high gain cranked amps).

 

I took reverb completely out of my path and started using an external TC Helicon reverb and things suddenly sounded much better, so then I started playing around with different amps and reverb positions (before the cab, etc.).

 

Long story short, I'm 100% convinced there's something very wrong with the reverbs in Helix, at least for high-gain amps.  The amount of reverb shouldn't totally disappear just because you change the amp block.  With 45% mix of reverb, you can barely hear it on high-gain amps.

 

There are other threads on reverb where some people swear they're totally usable and others say they're horrible, I believe this bug is the reason.  I was blown away at how good the hall reverb sounded on a clean amp, because it sounds terrible on a high-gain amp.

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I am not sure if it will help you high gain situation, but I turn the high cut on the reverb to about 1kHz to get the harshness out, and rarely go above 40% mix. That is only on clean/crunch/overdriven tones for me though. The Helix reverbs are definitely not as "pristine" as TC Electronic reverbs right out of the box. 

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I agree that reverb should be the last thing in the chain, I probably should have mentioned that I started this experiment because it doesn't sound right as the last block on the path (with high gain cranked amps).

 

I took reverb completely out of my path and started using an external TC Helicon reverb and things suddenly sounded much better, so then I started playing around with different amps and reverb positions (before the cab, etc.).

 

Long story short, I'm 100% convinced there's something very wrong with the reverbs in Helix, at least for high-gain amps.  The amount of reverb shouldn't totally disappear just because you change the amp block.  With 45% mix of reverb, you can barely hear it on high-gain amps.

 

There are other threads on reverb where some people swear they're totally usable and others say they're horrible, I believe this bug is the reason.  I was blown away at how good the hall reverb sounded on a clean amp, because it sounds terrible on a high-gain amp.

 

It seems to me that it's just the nature of how high gain amps react with reverb... It gets mushy and you lose articulation. I'm not sure how it would even be possible for this sort of thing to be a bug. It's not like the reverb block "knows" what amp block is active or what those settings are like.

 

Have you tried running a parallel path with a reverb block in it?

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Ok let me try to explain this differently.

 

If I take a clean amp (US Deluxe Nrm) with a low gain setting (but cranked channel/master volumes) and strum a chord, but then immediately mute all the strings with my pick hand, you can absolutely hear the reverberation as it decays.

 

If I take a high-gain amp (Line 6 2204 Mod) with a high gain and cranked channel/master volumes, doing the same exact chord and mute procedure.... you absolutely cannot hear the reverberation with the exact same settings.  

 

So I'm clear - There should not be drastic changes in the amount of reverb just because I'm changing amplifier blocks.  The balance between clean signal and reverb signal is set in the mix control of the reverb block, which has not changed at 45%.   

 

It's not a subtle difference, it's almost as if the reverb mix were changed from 45% down to 15% just by switching amps.  There's an obvious change in the level of reverb.

 

Please try it out and see if you have the same issue.

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Ok let me try to explain this differently.

 

If I take a clean amp (US Deluxe Nrm) with a low gain setting (but cranked channel/master volumes) and strum a chord, but then immediately mute all the strings with my pick hand, you can absolutely hear the reverberation as it decays.

 

If I take a high-gain amp (Line 6 2204 Mod) with a high gain and cranked channel/master volumes, doing the same exact chord and mute procedure.... you absolutely cannot hear the reverberation with the exact same settings.  

 

So I'm clear - There should not be drastic changes in the amount of reverb just because I'm changing amplifier blocks.  The balance between clean signal and reverb signal is set in the mix control of the reverb block, which has not changed at 45%.   

 

It's not a subtle difference, it's almost as if the reverb mix were changed from 45% down to 15% just by switching amps.  There's an obvious change in the level of reverb.

 

Please try it out and see if you have the same issue.

 

I can see where this symptom might be displayed if you put the reverb block before the amp. Any natural compression and distortion or even gating and EQ cuts employed in the high gain amp model might effectively mask the reverb. Does the reverb disappear when you palm mute on a reverb block placed after the amp and cab?

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Yes.  Same result with the reverb block placed either before or after the cab.  In both cases, the reverb is after the amp.

 

You can hear about 2 seconds worth of decay for the hall reverb at 45% mix with the clean amp, yet probably only a 1/2 second with the dirty amp.

 

After 2 straight days of testing this, I'm 100% convinced it's a major bug.  

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tried this - sorry I cant reproduce what you are saying.  In my case the reverb decays naturally on the high gain amp as well.  There must be another factor in your setup.

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I've tried multiple guitars, with the input pad on/off and different impedances.  Same thing every time.

 

I just updated to the new firmware v2.21 and it's still the same issue.

 

I've made a preset to share, but I don't see the option for attaching a file anywhere.  I click My Media and there are no options to upload a file?

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Hit More Reply Options. You get the full editor, which can attach files. If I remember right, you have to change the extension to .txt to upload presets, forum software rules. Try it without doing that first though.

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Awesome thanks for the tip.

 

Ok I made a very simple preset to show what I'm talking about.

 

I set up Footswitch 8 to switch between the two amps and nothing else changes in the path.

 

If you strike a chord and then immediately mute it, you will hear the reverb much more in the clean amp than the dirty amp.

 

I'm not saying there's not reverb in the dirty amp, but it's not even close to the clean amp's reverb.

 

The clean amp to me sounds like it has a lot of hall reverb, the dirty amp sounds like it has a little bit of room reverb.

 

I've changed guitars, enabled/disabled the pad, changed impedances and tried both FRFR and high quality Sony headphones, get the same result every time.  I'm on firmware v2.21 now and it still happens.

 

You can also increase the reverb's decay to hear even more of a difference between the two.  

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Not at my Helix, but I'll try this when I can, maybe tonight or tomorrow. If anyone can get to it sooner, great, sounds like a bug or a mystery, another set of ears on it would be good.

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I'll try it tonight. I don't have a guitar set up for metal, but it shouldn't matter. 

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Thanks all.  I dusted off my HD500 to compare the hall reverb and I can confirm the HD500 does not have this issue.  Hall reverb on a cranked amp sounds like hall reverb.

 

Other interesting thing to note on the Helix, is if you take the mix of the hall reverb (on both amps) past 50%, you start significantly losing volume.   This doesn't happen on the HD500.

 

The difference in volume seems a lot greater for the dirty amp than the clean amp (once you go way over 50% mix).

 

I really hope you all can confirm my sanity!

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Other interesting thing to note on the Helix, is if you take the mix of the hall reverb (on both amps) past 50%, you start significantly losing volume.   This doesn't happen on the HD500.

 

The difference in volume seems a lot greater for the dirty amp than the clean amp (once you go way over 50% mix).

 

The mix control is scaled differently on the Helix than it is on the HD500. On the Helix, the mix at 50 gives you equal parts wet and dry (100% wet and 100% dry).  At 0, you have 100% dry, 0% wet. At 100, you have 0% dry, 100% wet. So think of it more like a balance control between wet and dry.

 

On the HD500, you're mixing the wet into the dry signal. The dry signal remains at 100% until you turn the mix all the way up. It's more like the reverb knob on an amp would work.

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Since it hasn't been asked...

 

Is this a case of trails "off" on the high gain, and "on" on the cleans?

 

Please double check before replying with an answer.

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The reverb is the exact same for both amps, they're on the same path and I've confirmed nothing in the reverb settings changes between the amp switching.

 

Here is a crappy audio clip from my phone of what I'm experiencing.  This is the hall reverb with 9.0 decay and 40% mix on the clean amp first, then the dirty amp.

 

Pretty clear difference that there is way more reverb on the clean amp with the exact same settings.  

ReverbBug.mp3

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Really, I don't hear a problem. Your clean sound has alot more highs, and the reverb is working with that. Your high gain sound is much more compressed, the highs are squashed.  There is no bug here. Make the two patches equal in dB. The reverb can only work with the signal it's given.

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Again, it's not two patches.  It's a single patch with the same exact reverb on a single path.  The volume of both amps were roughly balanced out by ear, yet there is a massive difference in the amount of decay of the reverb between the two sounds.  A more compressed input signal should exhibit more reverb, not less.  If there's less dynamic range of the source signal, more of it should be "effected" by the reverb.

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