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Thoughts on this high gain Axe tone


zooey
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5:30 in this video:

 

Where would you start looking for something like that?

 

(Just to be clear, not that anyone cares much, I don't use tones like that basically ever, but respect and am interested in them anyway.)

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Z

 

 

 

Are you just on here trolling or what?

Didn't you just post a few axe fx videos yesterday asking how to achieve those tones?

Seems pretty disrespectful really. And then you add you don't even USE tones like that.

Whatever man..

 

 

No, zooey isn't a troll.

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No, zooey isn't a troll.

Agreed. Just because you don't normally use those tones doesn't mean that you're not curious about them and maybe want a good starting point. He's asking about a tone that has obviously peaked his interest. Just because this is a Line6 Helix forum it doesn't mean that people can't post about other modelers. It's not at all disrespectful. That is unless you believe that posting about other modelers is sacrilege and is tantamount to worshipping another modeling deity in the Holy Church of Helix.

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Not trolling, honest, just interested in some of the textures I hear the Axe do that don't remind me of what I get out of my Helix. There's a kind of density and compactness to it that's pretty cool in my book, even though I'm generally a lower gain guy than that.

 

In general I don't consider it disrespectful or whatever to bring up tones by other modelers, any more than bringing up non-modeler tones. They're all sounds people might be interested in, and/or might have ideas on achieving.

 

For the record, I'm super glad I have a Helix, great tool, but I also dig some Axe and Kemper stuff. I think you'll find that's true of lots of folks here, to the point where they actually own more than one of them. I would too if I could, and I may some day.

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For the record, I'm super glad I have a Helix, great tool, but I also dig some Axe and Kemper stuff. I think you'll find that's true of lots of folks here, to the point where they actually own more than one of them. I would too if I could, and I may some day.

Indeed. And I, being a very happy Helix owner, am also very interested in the Atomic Amplifire.

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Not trolling, honest, just interested in some of the textures I hear the Axe do that don't remind me of what I get out of my Helix. There's a kind of density and compactness to it that's pretty cool in my book, even though I'm generally a lower gain guy than that.

 

In general I don't consider it disrespectful or whatever to bring up tones by other modelers, any more than bringing up non-modeler tones. They're all sounds people might be interested in, and/or might have ideas on achieving.

 

For the record, I'm super glad I have a Helix, great tool, but I also dig some Axe and Kemper stuff. I think you'll find that's true of lots of folks here, to the point where they actually own more than one of them. I would too if I could, and I may some day.

I'm sorry for the assumption. A lot of people try to get artist tones.. I guess trying to get another modeler tone is fair.

 

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Where would you start looking for something like that?

The guy states it's based on a Boogie Mk IV with delay and reverb. Later he adds a Tube Screamer. Guess I would start there. Glad to know you are not really a troll😜
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I'll try it, but right around 5:30 he hasn't turned anything else on, just the Mark IV, and my impression is that that amp in Helix doesn't sound like that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the Helix Mesas (also the ones in Amplitube), I just haven't heard that kind of tone from them.

 

But then again, I probably didn't look specifically for such a thing either. I'll take a run in that direction when I can, see what comes out.

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Some of the Axe tones I hear in oline clips are better than what I get out of the Helix. Call me a troll if you want but its true. Still love my Helix and will not be buying anything else until Helix support becomes abandoned... so many years from now.

 

Also, the guitar that guy is using in the video is pretty great.

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I'll try it, but right around 5:30 he hasn't turned anything else on, just the Mark IV, and my impression is that that amp in Helix doesn't sound like that

O.K. But at 5:30 I hear the delay and verb, beside the amp - and a really annoying buzz like a crappy cable or bad earth or something. Plus he did say at the start it was set as a sort of mid gain thing with that amp model settings.

Experiment, have fun, enjoy!

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Some of the Axe tones I hear in oline clips are better than what I get out of the Helix. Call me a troll if you want but its true. Still love my Helix and will not be buying anything else until Helix support becomes abandoned... so many years from now.

 

Also, the guitar that guy is using in the video is pretty great.

I would have to agree. I am not opposed to someone having an opinion that is subjective as to what "sounds better". 

Mainly I was referring to the number of axe fx videos I have been seeing posted on here. the other guy stated "I don't have it anymore.. but how can I get this tone" My first thought was if it was so great why did he sell it?

I thought it was the OP but I was mistaken and also apologized. 

I may or may not prefer the sound of a fractal I've never had one. I like the format of this pedal better and hope it is everything I need. 

So far it's been tricky but I feel it's possible to achieve about any tone out of it with enough tweaking it in but I am sure there are limitations. 

Unlike the previous modelers it can only get better. 

 

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My no-worries reply was true, but didn't communicate what I'm getting at very well.

 

The Helix UI and connectivity are really great, and there's always going to be enough difference in guitars, players, personal taste, and goals to make genuine better-ness a pretty squishy target.

 

That said, in that clip in some others I've posted about, I hear some sort of common Fractal character, and it's kind of neat. Words aren't great for this, but it's a ballsy but very produced, polished, air-brushed kind of high gain sound, Penthouse Marshall, say. It may not be the only Fractal flavor, but it's one thing I've heard their boxes do well.

 

I'm curious what it's composed of, and what tools Helix has to get near there. Not because it's a better tone, but because it's cool.

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My no-worries reply was true, but didn't communicate what I'm getting at very well.

 

The Helix UI and connectivity are really great, and there's always going to be enough difference in guitars, players, personal taste, and goals to make genuine better-ness a pretty squishy target.

 

That said, in that clip in some others I've posted about, I hear some sort of common Fractal character, and it's kind of neat. Words aren't great for this, but it's a ballsy but very produced, polished, air-brushed kind of high gain sound, Penthouse Marshall, say. It may not be the only Fractal flavor, but it's one thing I've heard their boxes do well.

 

I'm curious what it's composed of, and what tools Helix has to get near there. Not because it's a better tone, but because it's cool.

To be honest for about the last year I have been saying if I had a fractal in my HD500 pedal it would be a perfect marriage. 

For MY tone.. and what I need I think Helix can deliver.  I am not going to say I still don't want a kemper and a fractal because I do. 

But then I would spend many more weeks learning all that.. and 1000's more lol  

Best of luck brother

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Shiver lead is based on a 20th Anniversary Bogner Shiva, not any Mesa. Here is the write up from the FAS wiki

 

SHIVER CLEAN (based on Bogner Shiva 20th Anniversary)

 

Shiva.png

Based on: Bogner Shiva Clean, 20th Anniversary model with KT88 tubes. A sweet, rich-sounding amp with powerful shimmering cleans and aggressive, English-style midrange punch.

Suggested cabs: Classic 80, V30. Stock cab(s): 1x12 Shiver.

Original controls Clean channel: Volume, Bass, Treble, Bright switch (less to none effective the higher Drive is set). Original controls Lead channel: Gain, Bass, Middle, Treble, Bright switch (less effective the higher Drive is set but still noticeable). Sharde controls: Master, Presence. "Boost" and "Shift" controls have not been modeled (use Input Trim as Boost).

Cliff's comments:

"People think Bogners are dark but they really aren't. The reason they seem that way is the pot tapers. Most people assume knobs should be set somewhere around noon. If you do this on a Bogner it's like turning the treble way down on a Marshall. Close your eyes and adjust the tone controls with your ears. Don't be afraid to turn them way up or way down." source

"Human nature is to put the knobs near noon. We are reticent to deviate much from noon. Amp designers exploit this and use different tapers to change the sound of their amps WITH THE KNOBS AT NOON. A prime example are Bogner amps. Everyone says "Bogner amps are dark". No they aren't. But he uses a Log10A taper for the treble pot. It's a standard Marshall tone stack. Usually a linear taper pot is used for the treble. The treble knob at 5.0 (noon) on a Bogner is equivalent to the treble knob at 1.0 on a Marshall. People put the knob at 5.0 and go "wow, this amp is dark". No it isn't. If you turned the treble up to 8 or 9 it would sound a lot like a Plexi but humans are reticent to turn the knobs to extremes. Amp designers know this and exploit it to give their amps a "signature sound"." source

"The original Shiva models were based on a borrowed amp. We now have a 20th Anniversary Shiva (with KT88s) and the new models are based on that amp. We did notice that this amp has less gain than the one used originally but the model is faithful to the amp." source

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Interesting Brad. Guess I (and anyone else who's interested) should trying getting that sort of tone from the German Mahadeva then.

 

Haven't played much w that one I think. Can anyone who has say if it has that Fractal-ness I'm talking about inherently, or can be made to have it?

 

Did my description of that flavor ring any bells w anyone, or am I just babbling?

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zooey - have you tried to approach that tone using an Angl?

The core sound of the ENGL model has a purity that seems to stick through even as the gain is brought up around it.

The sounds I've dialed with the Angl remind me a LOT of what I heard in that clip - I like that sound... then you goose it with a cleaner type of drive (Minotaur is my go-to for that purpose) to tighten it up on the way in...

 

Give that a shot if you haven't already - to add to the great info above, that is.

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One of the things that may distinguish the AXEfx  Shiva patch tone that Im playing with right now (the exact one that Cooper used in the vid, but many firmwares newer as that clip is several years old), is the Plex Detune effect that is used (it is a Multidelay block) , that I am unclear how or if its possible to do in Helix..that goes a long way to creating that "airbrushed" type of effect.  If anybody has any insight to that, it would be helpful to us to see if I can get that thing happening...

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Funny you mention the ENGL Monkey, I've been messing with it nearly full time lately, really liking the sounds I'm getting. They're somewhat atypical for me, but very cool.

 

My patches w it are part of a larger set of experiments with Master on 10 (usually), pretty low Drive (not generally trying for tons of distortion), often low or no Sag, Ripple, and Hum, and very high Bias. The amps all sound different run that way of course, but the ENGL really did catch my attention. It's not the only one I've liked, but I seem to have gotten stuck playing it for a while now, in a good way.

 

And you're right, it holds together well with pretty much distortion. Because Master is so high, even my most gain-y snapshot has Drive pretty low in absolute terms (not at my Helix to say numbers), but with that Master setting it's pretty sustain-y, with lots of overtones and a good bit of aggression, and a touch of that Litigator nice-ness too. You high gain guys might dispute most of those adjectives, but relative to me they're all true.

 

Fun stuff. I like my Helix :)

 

That said, at least the tones I've been getting don't remind me too much of that Axe tone. I wasn't shooting for it though, just looking for neighborhoods I dig.

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FWIW, I've been doing the modulated delay thing lately as part of general ambience, maybe some similarity to that Plex Detune. I didn't hear tons of detune type stuff at the point in that clip I pointed to though.

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FWIW, I've been doing the modulated delay thing lately as part of general ambience, maybe some similarity to that Plex Detune. I didn't hear tons of detune type stuff at the point in that clip I pointed to though.

 

..I didn't notice the pointer , so I just scanned till I got to Shiva and listened to the entire segment, which did include the detune..you are more interested in the pure hi-gain tone I guess.

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Shiver lead is based on a 20th Anniversary Bogner Shiva, not any Mesa. Here is the write up from the FAS wiki

 

SHIVER CLEAN (based on Bogner Shiva 20th Anniversary)

 

Shiva.png

Based on: Bogner Shiva Clean, 20th Anniversary model with KT88 tubes. A sweet, rich-sounding amp with powerful shimmering cleans and aggressive, English-style midrange punch.

Suggested cabs: Classic 80, V30. Stock cab(s): 1x12 Shiver.

Original controls Clean channel: Volume, Bass, Treble, Bright switch (less to none effective the higher Drive is set). Original controls Lead channel: Gain, Bass, Middle, Treble, Bright switch (less effective the higher Drive is set but still noticeable). Sharde controls: Master, Presence. "Boost" and "Shift" controls have not been modeled (use Input Trim as Boost).

Cliff's comments:

"People think Bogners are dark but they really aren't. The reason they seem that way is the pot tapers. Most people assume knobs should be set somewhere around noon. If you do this on a Bogner it's like turning the treble way down on a Marshall. Close your eyes and adjust the tone controls with your ears. Don't be afraid to turn them way up or way down." source

"Human nature is to put the knobs near noon. We are reticent to deviate much from noon. Amp designers exploit this and use different tapers to change the sound of their amps WITH THE KNOBS AT NOON. A prime example are Bogner amps. Everyone says "Bogner amps are dark". No they aren't. But he uses a Log10A taper for the treble pot. It's a standard Marshall tone stack. Usually a linear taper pot is used for the treble. The treble knob at 5.0 (noon) on a Bogner is equivalent to the treble knob at 1.0 on a Marshall. People put the knob at 5.0 and go "wow, this amp is dark". No it isn't. If you turned the treble up to 8 or 9 it would sound a lot like a Plexi but humans are reticent to turn the knobs to extremes. Amp designers know this and exploit it to give their amps a "signature sound"." source

"The original Shiva models were based on a borrowed amp. We now have a 20th Anniversary Shiva (with KT88s) and the new models are based on that amp. We did notice that this amp has less gain than the one used originally but the model is faithful to the amp." source

What ??

The OP said high gain sound in the video starts at 05,30 and thats NOT the shive thats the Mesa MK IV the Shive comes after that

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FWIW, I've been doing the modulated delay thing lately as part of general ambience, maybe some similarity to that Plex Detune. I didn't hear tons of detune type stuff at the point in that clip I pointed to though.

 

Zooey, I just realized we may not be talking about the same amp and preset..! at  5:30, Cooper is indeed talking about and playing the USA Lead, NOT the Shiva, as I thought from the video screenshot..my apologies...Shiver Lead is at 7:20... USA Lead is indeed a Mesa MK IV

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Z

 

 

 

Are you just on here trolling or what?

Didn't you just post a few axe fx videos yesterday asking how to achieve those tones? 

Seems pretty disrespectful really. And then you add you don't even USE tones like that. 

Whatever man.. 

 

 

Just to underscore the subject, Zooey is one of THE most helpful, and consistently helpful people in this forum.

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Thanks for the kind words Will, appreciated :)

 

jrrjr68 and I are sorted though, no hard feelings. He didn't know me, I understand why he might have thought what he did. We're remarkably civil over here usually, trolling expectations from the general internetz mostly don't apply. Don't even know where I left that flamethrower...

 

Carry on :)

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5:30 in this video:

 

Where would you start looking for something like that?

 

(Just to be clear, not that anyone cares much, I don't use tones like that basically ever, but respect and am interested in them anyway.)

 

Probably start with the Mesa MKIV Lead channel model. It doesn't sound Rectifierish to me. Pickups in that guitar he's playing makes a big difference as well. 

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I'm a high gain fiend, and I truly don't get what's so great about the tone referenced or how it's so unachievable with the Helix Mark IV model. It's super basic. Fremen has a way better Mark IV tone in this tweaking video here:

 

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Whether you particularly like the tone or not, do you hear anything like the "Fractal flavor" I'm talking about? As I said, it's not that I think it's the most amazing tone ever, just interested in what that flavor might be.

 

I'll check out Fremen's patch when I can, thanks for the heads up.

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Just to underscore the subject, Zooey is one of THE most helpful, and consistently helpful people in this foru

 

Thanks for the kind words Will, appreciated :)

 

jrrjr68 and I are sorted though, no hard feelings. He didn't know me, I understand why he might have thought what he did. We're remarkably civil over here usually, trolling expectations from the general internetz mostly don't apply. Don't even know where I left that flamethrower...

 

Carry on :)

lol Now I'm in trouble you have back up.

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Whether you particularly like the tone or not, do you hear anything like the "Fractal flavor" I'm talking about? As I said, it's not that I think it's the most amazing tone ever, just interested in what that flavor might be.

 

I'll check out Fremen's patch when I can, thanks for the heads up.

It's not the fractal flavor so much as it is the amp and signal chain that was used I think. As Mikah stated I think I have heard better stock presets than those tones

 

I will  try to find some examples. 

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USA LEAD + (based on MESA/Boogie Mark IV)

 

LINE 6 HELIX

Cali IV Rhythm 1 Rhythm I channel of the MESA/Boogie® Mk IV Cali IV Rhythm 2 Rhythm II channel of the MESA/Boogie® Mk IV Cali IV Lead Lead channel of the MESA/Boogie® Mk IV

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