Using Kemper with the Helix

[ZSchneidi]

Hello guys,

 

first of all this is currently a theoretical question. I don't have a Kemper (yet) I'm just thinking about this.

 

Has anyone here ever used a Kemper with the Helix ?

The point here is that the modeling in the Helix may be good but I search for specific amp models

and tones which the Helix can't provide and I don't see them coming anytime soon.

 

So I think about getting a Kemper set up my amp profiles and use it with the Helix floor board.

This way i want to switch profiles on the Kemper when switching Presets or even Snapshots.

And use the Kempers morphing algorithms with the Helix exp. pedal.

 

It would be good to know if these both systems can work together in a performance ready quality

and speed.

 

I like the Helix but the amp models won't do it for me at this point.

But I still want to use the Helix's signal routing and effects portion because the Helix is boss in this segment.

 

Anyone here that has done something similar ?

[spikey]

I like the Helix but the amp models won't do it for me at this point.

 

 

Well, I had both units together for a while. I finally sold my kemper because it wasn't being used as much after purchasing Helix.

Helix for me is my "hub" for all musical gear, plus with the editor, I hardly have to touch it unless I just want to.

[DunedinDragon]

You could probably get something like that to work if you wanted to.  Personally I prefer to spend my time playing rather than shopping.  And Helix works great for that.

[PeterHamm]

What specific amps? Keep in mind that there are actually very few different kinds of amp circuits, and the sound you want may be available in a different amp. For instance, if someone makes an awesome marshall clone, it could be that you'll get your sound from one of the Marshall models in there.

But I think that using both would be great fun. I'd rather have an AX8 along with Helix if I could swing it, but that's just me.

[ZSchneidi]

@spikey

 

That isn't even so unexpecting because the Helix covers so much so good.

It may depend on the individual needs and I am like almost 90% happy with my Helix.

 

But those last 10% are currently hard to achieve.

 

@DunedinDragon

 

I know what you mean and the Helix is a lollipop load of fun. Yesterday I played straight for hours with my Helix after being in a music store playing with my dream amp.

So its not like I can't enjoy this bad boy. But I'm kind of a gear lollipop you know ;)

 

@PeterHamm

I tried all the mid to high gain amps in the Helix and I know that each model can be made sound very different from default setup.

But I think that there a some boundaries inside which we can try to achieve stuff.

 

I tend to like more modern Amps. Especially the Mesa Mark V which has an amazing sound structure. And different others like Victory amps, Engl, Diezel.

I know there are fairly close models for couple of these. But if you are in an amp room playing through the actual amp I understand that modeling will not

really cover that.

 

I currently use the Mark IV model in the Helix and I'm so addicted to that one Model alone. So yeah they did a great job with that one.

But it takes alot of time to fine tune it. And the Mark V isn't really available like others.

 

The Kemper has the advantage that it can cover every possible amp I'm hearing. The Helix just can't maybe come close but these last 10%

won't be achieved I'm sure.

 

The Helix can do so much but can't cover every sound out there and that is OK its still awesome.

I geek out over amp sounds and for that purpose i wish for something with a lil more potential.

[ZSchneidi]

One of the most important features that the Helix is missing is tone matching.

I guess that the Helix would be way more easily to dial in if you could just use some amp matching algorithms.

 

A few days ago a friend showed me his Bias Amp software which is pretty good.

But the biggest improvement was amp matching. All matched presets sounded way more realistic then the

modeled amp presets.

 

So it may be possible to take even the Mark IV model and match it against the Mark V and even get close to

what I'm searching for. This is basically impossible to achieve by just randomly tweaking some EQs.

 

I mean all the high end systems have some sort of matching except the Helix.

 

Is this kind of feature in the pipeline and to expect anytime soon ?

[jroseberry]

Tone-matching is using an IR block to shape the guitar's frequency content.

 

Though it's more convoluted, with a DAW application and FFT Filter... you can tone-match outside of Helix.

Once the tone is matched with the FFT Filter, create an IR using that Filter contour.

That "matched" IR can then be loaded/used in Helix.

[ZSchneidi]

Ok thanks for that but im not even close to being a tone engineer.

 

So I have so idea what you are talking about ^^

And creating my own IRs seem a bit overkill I mean who is doing this as a normal user ?

 

There are businesses build around this topic for a reason ;)

[PeterHamm]

Ok thanks for that but im not even close to being a tone engineer.

 

 

All due respect, yes. You actually are.

 

If you are picky enough to recognize when you can only get 90% there and are passionate about that other 10%... and are willing to add another very expensive piece of gear to the puzzle...

 

...you are a tone engineer...

 

Or at least you should become one.

[klangmaler]

"But those last 10% are currently hard to achieve"

...ahhh, I see... You want simply an easy to use jack of all trades device!

Well - sometimes a little magic trick does it...

[PeterHamm]

The last "10%" is sometimes just a function of volume. We often end up using modelers because we can't be as loud as a tube amp. When you're not as loud, the air isn't moving the right way, and you'll never be at "100%".

[klangmaler]

[glideman]

I never use my Helix and Kemper together. Effects are good enough for me in Kemper to not need Helix when using it. Helix is my compact rig, and Kemper is my Mac Daddy rig.

[Hapless]

I've had a Kemper for about 4 years and just recently purchased a Helix along with a Variax.  My intent was to use the Helix with the Kemper in 4CM, with the Helix also controlling the Kemper via MIDI, and mixing and matching amps from the Kemper with amps from the Helix for sets in the two bands I play in, along with using the Helix to control the Variax.  But, in the month I've had the Helix, I've not even touched my Kemper.  I still plan on going with my original plan, but I've found the Helix to be more than capable on it's own.

[ZSchneidi]

Its not like I'm searching an easy shortcut or something.

But more like the fact that pure modeling hast its boundaries. And i need at least amp matching to get the last bit 

I've hear amazing results on the Fractal which isn't even so different from the Helix but they have matching functions.

 

Like i said its not like I'm not pleased with the helix. But the amp models are not the kind of stuff i need or want.

 

And of course the kemper would be pretty overkill to get the last bit. 

[DunedinDragon]

Its not like I'm searching an easy shortcut or something.

But more like the fact that pure modeling hast its boundaries. And i need at least amp matching to get the last bit 

I've hear amazing results on the Fractal which isn't even so different from the Helix but they have matching functions.

 

Like i said its not like I'm not pleased with the helix. But the amp models are not the kind of stuff i need or want.

 

And of course the kemper would be pretty overkill to get the last bit. 

 

I honestly can't imagine what you feel is missing.  We play pretty much every genre you can think of...country, rockabilly, british invasion, punk, jazz, R&B, classic rock, metal, funk.... and I've yet to be impaired by a lack of facilities on the Helix.  Unless maybe you're playing Ugandan tribal folk songs or something....

 

How long have you had your Helix and how far have you gotten in exploring the capabilities???

 

If by boundaries in modeling you mean that everything always sounds great and professional studio quality and what you're after is some really trashy garage band sound....I could live with that boundary.

[spikey]

You could do what I did, which is to find a pedal or two that adds something extra and not exactly replicating what you have now. I found that in my Bogner La Grange pedal. Its got that lil bit of extra Plexi mojo I can't seem to nail in my Helix or the Kemper.

[rzumwalt]

You could do what I did, which is to find a pedal or two that adds something extra and not exactly replicating what you have now. I found that in my Bogner La Grange pedal. Its got that lil bit of extra Plexi mojo I can't seem to nail in my Helix or the Kemper.

 

TS9 Tube Screamer does it for me. That slightly sharper sound it has compared with the T808 modeled by the Helix makes all the difference to my ears.

 

 

Then again...

 

The last "10%" is sometimes just a function of volume. We often end up using modelers because we can't be as loud as a tube amp. When you're not as loud, the air isn't moving the right way, and you'll never be at "100%".

 

I am a repeated victim of thinking a slight change I've made has vastly improved my tone, only to find out that I've just increased the volume a little. Worse, how many times have I sworn I've heard a substantial change only to look down and realize I was stomping on an unassigned pedal. If you told me that someone had made the perfect profile of an amp I wanted in Kemper and stood me in front of a Kemper claiming the profile was loaded, but I was actually playing through a Helix, I would probably swear it sounded exactly like the amp I wanted and I could never get the sound I was hearing from a Helix.

[ZSchneidi]

@DunedinDragon

 

Its not like i want some trashy sounds and for sure the Helix is good in the studio and clear and crisp and anything.

But did you ever heard the difference between a pure amp model and a good amp matched sound ?

 

That is what I want. I can't even explain what it is but its this last bit to realism and authenticity that I'm missing

on purely dialed in presets. Its feels way more like a real thing. Its so subtle you may be wouldn't even recognize it.

 

And I'm mainly for Metal Amps so the Engl, Recitfier, Soldano, Mark IV may be good but they are not enough by far

not enough. You can try 5 different Engl amps and couldn't even tell which ones the best because every single amp

has its own sweetspots. And that is the second reason I'm not happy with these few options alone.

 

I want to try out several amps and want to be impressed and get creative with each and every one of them without

having to spend days and days to dial in a single presets until i start enjoying it. I can spend a lot of time with the Helix

for that one sound but sometimes i just wanna grab the axe and shred along for some hours with tones that are just

there.

 

I can't even tell which kind of amp sound suits me the most because I feel i don't even know enough amps to be able to tell.

[DunedinDragon]

@DunedinDragon

 

Its not like i want some trashy sounds and for sure the Helix is good in the studio and clear and crisp and anything.

But did you ever heard the difference between a pure amp model and a good amp matched sound ?

 

That is what I want. I can't even explain what it is but its this last bit to realism and authenticity that I'm missing

on purely dialed in presets. Its feels way more like a real thing. Its so subtle you may be wouldn't even recognize it.

 

And I'm mainly for Metal Amps so the Engl, Recitfier, Soldano, Mark IV may be good but they are not enough by far

not enough. You can try 5 different Engl amps and couldn't even tell which ones the best because every single amp

has its own sweetspots. And that is the second reason I'm not happy with these few options alone.

 

I want to try out several amps and want to be impressed and get creative with each and every one of them without

having to spend days and days to dial in a single presets until i start enjoying it. I can spend a lot of time with the Helix

for that one sound but sometimes i just wanna grab the axe and shred along for some hours with tones that are just

there.

 

I can't even tell which kind of amp sound suits me the most because I feel i don't even know enough amps to be able to tell.

 

Oh yeah, after more than 50 years of doing this I've certainly heard plenty of amps and even Kemper amp models.  But I wasn't talking about the Helix used in the studio.  I was talking about studio quality sound in live performances.  That's been the holy grail for almost a decade now, and it's finally becoming achievable for everyone.

 

For some reason people seem to be fixated with amp sounds, but rarely does anyone in the audience ever actually experience an amp sound.  99% of the time they experience a polished studio production of that sound when they stream music, listen to a CD, or listen to the radio, which is very different from a live amp sound.  That's what they want to hear, and the push to achieve that sound in live performances, particularly with the large name acts, has been going on for more well than a decade.  They have no choice because their competitor acts are spending the money and time to accomplish it, so they have to.  In spite of what you visually see on stage in terms of amps, that is not what the audience is hearing.  That sound is being processed in any number of ways in order to fashion it into a reasonable facsimile of what is heard on the recording.  Little of it has to do with the sound coming out of the amp and more to do with how it's being handled by the guitar techs, drum techs, and sound engineers behind the scene to produce that live version of a studio quality sound.

 

Fortunately on the smaller scale we have access to the Helix which is basically all of those facilities rolled into one box that can be brought to bear in the types of venues most, if not all of us, play.  You can spend a lot of time seeking the ultimate amp sound, but that's still going to get processed through a cabinet, and various mic's with certain types of placements, and of course effects, EQ, and ultimately speakers.  THAT is what your audience is hearing.  And if you do it well you will sound like a studio recording in a live environment.  Unfortunately, at our level of music, we're not blessed with an army of guitar techs and sound engineers.  But we now have all the tools and if we incorporate their craftsmanship into our skillset, we can accomplish the same thing as the big boys.  But as you can see, that has little to actually do with the final 1% of the amp sound, and more to do with your skills in crafting a signal chain.

[ZSchneidi]

@DunedinDragon

 

Hey man its nice to philosophize  with you about this topic ^^ I realy like this kind of chat.

You are totally right with the point to bring up as pro for the Helix. And I agree with you 100%.

That is the big selling point for the Helix the controlled and reproducible sound it gives us.

So in a live environment the Helix is the best solution and might be enough for most of us.

Me too in the end.

 

I often go to gigs and as guitarist and gear lollipop i listen very carefully to what the guitars sound like.

And i hear the amps characteristics pretty well. Although most of the time a modeled sound would do

the job too and i might not even recognize it.

 

The idea behind the Kemper and the perfection or better the imperfections of an amp is that although the Helix

sounds good and all. Its more like it sound too controlled to studio like. I'm used to amps and like this rough sound

character each amp has. So I want this realistic amp sound more in my home studio when i practice.

 

As you said if I would use the Kemper on stage no one would give a damn or even hear it.

So its mainly for my own pleasure at home through my Monitors. Where the Helix sounds a bit to clinical.

Its not the same feeling I get playing amps.

 

I should have set this clear in the beginning. You couldn't know that. So the Helix has more the approach to be perfect.

And it might be. But my last 10% consist partially of some imperfections of amps and this not so full range sound.

[klangmaler]

...your last 10%...

 

 

 

 

 

 

...um...

 

 

 

 

 

 

...phew...

 

 

 

 

 

...guess 90% are 'imperfect' enough for me ;)...

[jrrjr68]

One of the most important features that the Helix is missing is tone matching.

I guess that the Helix would be way more easily to dial in if you could just use some amp matching algorithms.

 

A few days ago a friend showed me his Bias Amp software which is pretty good.

But the biggest improvement was amp matching. All matched presets sounded way more realistic then the

modeled amp presets.

 

So it may be possible to take even the Mark IV model and match it against the Mark V and even get close to

what I'm searching for. This is basically impossible to achieve by just randomly tweaking some EQs.

 

I mean all the high end systems have some sort of matching except the Helix.

 

Is this kind of feature in the pipeline and to expect anytime soon ?

My friend.. there is a plethora of options. You have to experiment to find "your" tone. Only you know what you like or don't like. 

Try turning gain back and cranking treble.. vice verse.. add eq after merge block, before split, before or after amp.. all those things drastically change the sound. 

I won't say it's IMPOSSIBLE to get those tones.. but I will say you may have to put in some hours to get it just right..

 

For the record.. I think I'm going on my 3rd week now. It's been a love hate relationship. 

It's not like dialing in an amp because there are so many other variables to contend with. 

 

Once I figured out the MODE button { HOLD TO EDIT } ... that made life much easier.. you can tap through eq frequencies and adjust with exp pedal.. way cool feature and time saver 

[specracer986]

 

So its mainly for my own pleasure at home through my Monitors. Where the Helix sounds a bit to clinical.

Its not the same feeling I get playing amps.

But my last 10% consist partially of some imperfections of amps and this not so full range sound.

 

It sure sounds like he's asking for the amp in a room experience.

[ZSchneidi]

@klangmaler

 

I guess you should see a doc or something

 

@jrrjr68

 

Believe me i know. I spend several DAYS dialing in a single Preset and tweak the sound to my likings.

Otherwise I would have never gotten even close to being happy with it.

 

My Mark IV Preset has noise gate, compressor, distortion infront through the Mark IV Lead channel with half gain through

a splitter into two parallel Ownhammer IRs (spend hours to find the right ones) mixed them to my needs. After that through

high/low cut filter, EQ, Volume block etc.

 

So its not like i just put an map with a cab and expect to get good results out of the box.

Its alot of work i know that. I could sit down and analyze the sound through a frequency analyzer and compare that

with my target amp and spend days to dial it to perfection but this is not gonna happen. Because I don't wanna spend this

amount of work for a single patch when my mood changes daily and I might wanna have some fun with other amps too.

 

@specracer986

 

I indeed try to get close to the amp in the room experience. And i know the Helix won't be able to deliver that.

Thats the point with amp matching. Match a specific amp through a good cab and well miced. And you get the

amp in the room kind of characteristic. Thats what I'm missing.

 

That is by definition the weak spot of pure amp modeling that its not even the philosophy to get this kind of sound from it.

 

That might be the big selling point of the Kemper. And people need to choose which technology suits them best.

I kinda want both worlds.

[klangmaler]

Easy, buddy.

You're looking for your 'last 10% on the way to the imperfections of amps.

 

Because I don't wanna spend this

amount of work for a single patch when my mood changes daily and I might wanna have some fun with other amps too.

 

You want it all and you want as soon as possible, right?

Now what?

 

Helix is 90% close to this demands, IMHO.

And now I go to visit my doc...

...and then I tweak my last 10%...

[ZSchneidi]

Dude what is you purpose here ?

Do you just try to get your post counter up or what are you comments supposed to be ?

[PeterHamm]

Dude what is you purpose here ?

Do you just try to get your post counter up or what are you comments supposed to be ?

 

 

Everybody's just jealous because they can't afford both...

[klangmaler]

...Doc said, I'm wrong in the garnet...

I knew it before , I knew it...

Anyway, my ears are still ok.

Now I'm goin' to listen to'Almost Is Never Enough"...

[ZSchneidi]

Everybody's just jealous because they can't afford both...

 

Why do you think anyone is jealous ? I think klangmaler is just a bit weird thats all ^^

And why would it be so odd to get a Kemper along with the Helix to have the best of both worlds.

I mean its not that much money considering what you get for the money.

 

People buying guitars GUITARS for thousands and thousands of dollars and thats just some wood

with strings on it. Its not like the concept has changed over the last decades. And we all have more

than one guitar i guess.

 

So why not spend this money on high tech gimmicks which offer a lot more for the money.

[PeterHamm]

So why not spend this money on high tech gimmicks which offer a lot more for the money.

 

 

i don't agree that any gizmo offers more for the money than my Andersons do, frankly (amps/processors come and go, but my really great guitars remain)... but... you are not wrong otherwise imho.

 

If it takes a Helix AND a Kemper AND an AXE to get your sound and you can use all three... the only reason you wouldn't is if a.) you're a mindless fan boi who has some strange loyalty to a corporation or 2.) You're simply not sophisticated enough with technology (nothing wrong with that) or simply can't afford to take the time to learn them or 3.) $#!†! man that's a lot of money!

 

If you can swing it... do it...

[klangmaler]

[...]

If you can swing it... do it...

This is exactly what I meant with my question "Now what?"

[ZSchneidi]

i don't agree that any gizmo offers more for the money than my Andersons do, frankly (amps/processors come and go, but my really great guitars remain)... but... you are not wrong otherwise imho.

 

If it takes a Helix AND a Kemper AND an AXE to get your sound and you can use all three... the only reason you wouldn't is if a.) you're a mindless fan boi who has some strange loyalty to a corporation or 2.) You're simply not sophisticated enough with technology (nothing wrong with that) or simply can't afford to take the time to learn them or 3.) $#!†! man that's a lot of money!

 

If you can swing it... do it...

 

Nothing wrong with good guitars. They make the first and most important part in our signal chains.

 

I don't even buy guitars for more than 1500€ or so. In fact I mainly play a sub 600€ guitar.

Because I'm indeed a lil fan boy but a tech fan boy in general. So I spend more money on tech then on guitars.

 

So i guess money wise it would be totally fine to buy one but i don't tend to mindlessly buy repetitive stuff.

Thats why I was asking for experience in using both units.

[PeterHamm]

Nothing wrong with good guitars. They make the first and most important part in our signal chains.

 

I don't even buy guitars for more than 1500€ or so. In fact I mainly play a sub 600€ guitar.

Because I'm indeed a lil fan boy but a tech fan boy in general. So I spend more money on tech then on guitars.

 

So i guess money wise it would be totally fine to buy one but i don't tend to mindlessly buy repetitive stuff.

Thats why I was asking for experience in using both units.

 

 

Well, we're off on a tangent for a moment, but...

 

...I learned about 10 years ago, that the difference between 1000 - 1500 US$ guitars and those costing $3K or more... for me... is more than substantial. If I had to put a number on it, I'd rather have my 3 guitars that cost (new) between 3K and 4500 or even 5K than twice as many that cost half as much, in fact, in the late 2000s until 2012 I made exactly that change! But then, my number one I've had for 10 years and still love it, my #2 I've now had for just under 5 and my #3 for 4... and none are for sale...

 

But...

 

...you are asking after a very specific and significantly high-end amp modeler/profile solution. The chances that many people have combined both of those is not very great, so I think that eventually, you will be the one telling US how to do it!

[ZSchneidi]

In case i really give that a try I guess I might let you know but I wouldn't expect any interest in that ^^

[jbuhajla]

If you can swing it... do it...

If you can responsibly afford it, have both. Then you can share your experiences with the integration. 

[PeterHamm]

In case i really give that a try I guess I might let you know but I wouldn't expect any interest in that ^^

 

 

I totally feel you! The stuff I do is playing 3 sounds at the same time from one guitar, acoustic, electric, and synth-pad-ish sounds.

 

There aren't THAT many who can even USE the patches I write, so I end up learning how to do this all on my own. Similar situation.

 

One more thing to consider with a Kemper + Helix solution.

 

That is a LOT to carry... you up for that? I'm not...

[ZSchneidi]

I totally feel you! The stuff I do is playing 3 sounds at the same time from one guitar, acoustic, electric, and synth-pad-ish sounds.

 

There aren't THAT many who can even USE the patches I write, so I end up learning how to do this all on my own. Similar situation.

 

One more thing to consider with a Kemper + Helix solution.

 

That is a LOT to carry... you up for that? I'm not...

 

For your kind of patches you need some skills especially some creativity to even use this properly.

Respect for such skills.

 

I'm more the plain stupid kind of shredder compared to that. I don't NEED this kind of rig. The Helix

would do everything for me. Its more the point that money doesn't hurt me ^^ and I'm a big child that

wants his toys. And I'm old enough to don't have to ask anyone ;)

 

And building patches should be at least the same fun as playing them.

But in my example the Mark IV is definitely something different then the Mark V.

So I came to the point were nothing brings me even close to my target.

 

And I have no responsibilities YET. And as long as I can buy this stuff with a clear conscience I'm fine with that.

Times may change ;)

 

And carrying my gear is like wanking for me ^^

[klangmaler]

And carrying my gear is like wanking for me

 

I see.

Who's weird?

My idea for the next generation Variax:

An implemented Helix.

I call it Varihix ('cause 'Heliax' ist a registered trademark already)...

Not so much to carry ;)

[bobthedog]

I have both and the Kemper definitely adds something to the mix, basically it sounds a bit better than the helix in the amp modelling department and there are a large number of patches to download that sound really good. It is far simpler to make it sound good than it is the Helix.

 

The Helix also adds something, it is a pleasure to set up compared to the Kemper, it has far better routing ability and I/O, you can change the input impedance which I think is very important and the UI is 100% better.

 

For Studio/Home use they make a good combination, for live use I would just use the Helix. The audience has absolutely no idea of the nuances in sound between the two!

 

 

 

Well, we're off on a tangent for a moment, but...

...I learned about 10 years ago, that the difference between 1000 - 1500 US$ guitars and those costing $3K or more... for me... is more than substantial. If I had to put a number on it, I'd rather have my 3 guitars that cost (new) between 3K and 4500 or even 5K than twice as many that cost half as much, in fact, in the late 2000s until 2012 I made exactly that change! But then, my number one I've had for 10 years and still love it, my #2 I've now had for just under 5 and my #3 for 4... and none are for sale...

But...

...you are asking after a very specific and significantly high-end amp modeler/profile solution. The chances that many people have combined both of those is not very great, so I think that eventually, you will be the one telling US how to do it!

 

 

I have to agree, the difference is huge for most manufacturers, just play some PRS SEs, S2s, CEs, core line and the expensive stuff to see the massive difference as your wallet gets lighter!

 

Three manufacturers that I think can make decent cheaper guitars are G&L, Godin and Brian Moore. I have a few of these in the £1500-£2000 range that put Gibsons, Fenders and PRSs costing twice as much to shame.