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Midsong patch switch from rhythm to lead tone

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After looking at santana's rig these days I've been thinking about switching from one patch to another mid song instead of trying to click on an Overdrive. With a variax you could actually Switch amp types and guitar types mid song ...there would be the trick of getting the volumes correct but you have that even flipping on an overdrive in one patch. Thoughts?

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After looking at santana's rig these days I've been thinking about switching from one patch to another mid song instead of trying to click on an Overdrive. With a variax you could actually Switch amp types and guitar types mid song ...there would be the trick of getting the volumes correct but you have that even flipping on an overdrive in one patch. Thoughts?

I've been doing that with one rig or another for 25 years...it's no more mysterious than adding an overdrive. Anything that messes with gain levels can screw with your volume. So yes, you'll have to play with the relative volume levels. Changing patches also comes with the much-hated audio drop out that's been discussed ad nauseam...it's short, but noticeable, and in a live setting can be irritating if not done right. As always, ymmv.

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When clicking on an overdrive ahead of the amps, my goal usually is to drop out of the mix entirely during the last measure before the solo anyway -- in other words the drop out might be a good thing in my case, preventing the accidental boost in rhythm chords just prior to the solo. I could see this being bad in a 3-piece combo where you''d create a big sonic hole for a few seconds, but not usually an issue in the larger band and I play with.

 

I'm very happy with the POD but had been considering an outboard drive pedal since I sometimes just can't quite get the sound I want with built-in effects --- this opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. Amp-switching isn't an option available to many non-pod amateur rigs due to the cost, weight and complexity.

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I have two patches set up basically the same, one with the od on and the other with it off. I have leveled the volumes so that there isn't a noticeable volume change so I can get a bit of drive without cranking the volume.

 

If I hit the od on the clean patch then I do get an increase.

 

I also have songs where I need patches where I do change guitar and amp (I have a Variax) for a part of a song. Indeed, using the fx loop I have songs where I'm playing acoustic and sending that to pa via fx out then to clean strat then to od LP via my DT 25. All with the press of a button. I always think of the patches as sounds, I don't get hung up with the 'it didn't sound like a 1959 LP'. I just get a sound I like that I think a song needs.

 

Of course, I do have to allow for the milliseconds gap in the patch change but personally I've never had a problem finding a gap to change in.

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Do this all the time, I have my patches setup like scenes where you have all the same amp models and pedals on each one of the 4 but just a difference in which pedals are active and maybe a difference in the drive knobs on the amps to simulate a multiple channel head. The biggest annoyance do this method is you lose delay and reverb tails when switching, which is most of the dreaded switch drop out. In my group it's an annoyance but something I have to live with for now.

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I'll definitely give this a try but for now I'm most interested in something like Patch A ( rhythm )   AC30 fairly clean with delay/reverb   Patch B:  ( drive )  Brit2204  very crunchy ( possibly going from strat to LP in the patch change )

 

I've explored the OD/dirt effects in the POD and found 2 or 3 most useful to me ( screamer, Tube drive, line 6 OD ), but this offers the possibility of a whole new palette.

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Do this all the time, I have my patches setup like scenes where you have all the same amp models and pedals on each one of the 4 but just a difference in which pedals are active and maybe a difference in the drive knobs on the amps to simulate a multiple channel head. The biggest annoyance do this method is you lose delay and reverb tails when switching, which is most of the dreaded switch drop out. In my group it's an annoyance but something I have to live with for now.

I thought there was a setting for this? You can have the 'tails' from a delay etc. or not?

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I thought there was a setting for this? You can have the 'tails' from a delay etc. or not?

 

If so I was not aware of it. If anyone knows please inform me! I love to keep my delay tails when switching patches. (I use a DT25 for a bit extra reverb so I tend to keep that due to being on hte amp mostly).

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Trails (not tails) work for switching an effect on and off within a patch, not between patches.

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1 One way to handle this is to have your lead FX in one path (maybe top) and the other FX in the other (maybe bottom) path. Some will be shared and can go in the main path. Then set up the pedal to pan between full lead, rhythm, or a mix. This works exceptionally well other than a few downsides:

 

- Some FX you won't be able to get in the exact order due to how the paths relate

 

- You won't be able to use the pedal for some other things, although with the toe button you can still switch on things like WAH

 

- You may run out of FX or DSP space which I sometimes do but this is not too common

 

 

2. The other way to do this which takes more work but can make the patch better in the end is to look at each setting you want to change in your lead, and assign it to the pedal. For instance, if for lead you want the amp gain moved from 30 to 50, the volume moved from 80 to 100, the delay mix from 30 to 50, etc...you can assign all of these exact numbers to the pedal. Then like the first way you can push up for lead, back for rhythm, or anything in between.

 

 

And the reason the "anything in between" parts of the above 2 options can be important is depending on the room, song, mood of the band, etc...I rarely find a single button is what I want all the time. Very often I just want to go some of the way, and using these methods make that possible.

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Kinglerch, I like that idea, especially #2.   I'm going to have to practice with the pod on the floor since now I normally have it up on a table next to my laptop for quick HDedit work.   The result is that I'm horrible at using the expression pedal.  I think I'm doing something wrong like not putting any weight on the "heel" of the pedal at all.    This leaves me feeling like I'm standing on one foot and unsteady at getting precise pedal movements.

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Of course the other problem with any volume change is that in our situation, the player has only a rough idea what the change will do in front of house ( PA ).

 

If the sound tech doesn't know what you're going to do and when, he may just pull you back down, and leave it that way.    I can see that setting the expression pedal to go from 80 to 100 could be the same as kicking on  a drive or boost effect, with the same risk that the tech may defeat you.

 

Either way it would need to be a specific change, not a variable one.  I suppose you could gauge from your in-ears volume change what you're doing in the house ( we don't have ambient mics so can't hear the room unless we pull one ear bud out.    This whole thing also applies to the patch-switch approach to getting a solo boost.

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@kinglerch

 

I like the idea of choosing in between a tonal range of a rhythm and lead tone just in one patch but the usage of the expression-pedal has traps I am not getting around.

 

Let's say I choose my lead tone at a pedal position of 75% to toe and I need a pure clean-tone afterwards. In that case my clean-tone will be at a level of only 75 % if I have the volume assigned to the pedal in the clean patch. Or is there a way to ignore the pedal position in a patch and let it start at 100 % upon the switch? I am not aware of this except when I am USB connected to HD Edit.

 

I am still getting my head around that problem, trying to design my banks and patches a way it works for me, without the need for a extra bank per song. But to be honest I am pretty sure a player who is used to hot-step a bunch of analog pedals would laugh at my inability ;)

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I recently added Amp B in conjunction to Amp A for my lead function, that way I can have my lead tone as a function of FS4 within my crunch preset, with just a touch more gain & mids on Amp B and to me it sounds more consistent to Amp A when A/B'd.

 

The settings for Amp B are pretty much the same, with the sag dialed back a touch & more mids/gain.

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@kinglerch

 

Let's say I choose my lead tone at a pedal position of 75% to toe and I need a pure clean-tone afterwards. In that case my clean-tone will be at a level of only 75 % if I have the volume assigned to the pedal in the clean patch. Or is there a way to ignore the pedal position in a patch and let it start at 100 % upon the switch? I am not aware of this except when I am USB connected to HD Edit.

 

I think the pedal can be used for any setting like this. What I do is:

 

- Get all settings for "rhythm" tone. Save the patch.

 

- Tweak any settings you like in order to get the "lead" tone you are looking for. Write these down. For example ( delay mix went from 30 to 50, gain went from 100 to 80, etc) and yes you can go from high to low on the settings if you want.

 

- Assign each of these settings to be controlled by the pedal position, with the settings you wrote down.

 

- Play with the two extremes to be sure the sound you are looking for is still there. NOTE THAT I OFTEN HAD TO SAVE THE PATCH WITH HDEDIT BEFORE I WOULD HEAR THE EFFECT, a bug I think. Tweak until you get what you are looking for.

 

- Save the patch and now you can adjust anywhere in between. The control is quite nice.

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@kinglerch

 

I did understand already but the problems occur if you have to switch to another patch (f.e. Clean) and the pedal is (f.e.) down, which results in a volume loss, if the pedal is assigned to volume. That's all one has to keep in mind using a floating pedal switch from Crunch to Lead tone.

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Indeed, you cannot rely on pedal position between patches. One of the reasons I found is that even if you switch and do not touch the pedal, a slight rumble on the ground later will do it for you and change the sound. I typically switch patches, and then move the pedal to the desired position. A pain, which is why I like to stay with the same patch for any song. I also have several patches where the pedal fades from very clean to very distorted, with everything in between.

 

Good luck.

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I used to use the 4 pedal mode (I think that's what it is called... top four button for effects, bottom four for patch change)... however I have changed to the 8 button mode (again the name? sorry... all eight buttons are assigned to an effect)... For the lead boost, i use the EQ pedal and just give it a db boost... nothing else.  I also like to use a tube screamer and then tube drive in the same line.  I can go from clean (screamer off, drive off) to light crunch (screamer on, drive off) crunchier crunch (screamer off, drive on) and smooth driving lead (screamer on, drive on) ... I can then hit the EQ boost if I need extra volume.  I really like this setup.  I also like to have two delays, short and long in the same line..

 

My train is this  Vetta Comp -> Throaty Wah -> Tube Screamer -> Tube Drive -> Analog Chorus -> Lux Nrm Pre Amp -> Mixer -> Short delay -> Long Delay

 

I have the pedal set to control the volume of the amp which saves me from adding a volume pedal to the chain.

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