Amp head and helix

[tesshu]

Hi everyone,

hope someone will help. ;)

 

I've had my helix for a a couple of months now, times limited with kids and work but getting to grips with it slowly and it's immense.

 

Normally I output to frfr speakers - nothing special but do the job.

 

I have a few amps but no cab so I've been running an epiphone valve junior through a Marshall DFX combos speaker, just so I've something with valves to play with as a practice rig in kitchen.

 

My question is; can i use the speaker output on Amp head to run into my helix in an fx loop?

I'm worried this will blow up my helix, as amps have to go to a cab or hotplate don't they?

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Rock on good people

:)

[rd2rk]

NO! Speaker out will fry your Helix!

[AlexKenivel]

Speaker outputs on amplifiers definitely need a speaker cabinet load or a load box or damages will incur. If you want to use a tube amp with your Helix then I suggest looking up tutorials on the 4 cable method if your amplifier has its own effects Loop. If it doesn't have an effects Loop then you would have to use your helix plugged into your amps guitar input

[MusicLaw]

You would need a reactive Load Box to connect to your Amp's Speaker Out. These Load Boxes will have a Line Level Direct Out, that you then could connects to your Helix FX Return. You would set your Helix Global Setting > I/O > to Line Level for the FX Return you choose to use on your Helix.

[tesshu]

Thanks for the answers, glad I asked before giving it a go.

 

Not sure if next question would be better in a separate post but..

 

I really want to put 2 guitars through my helix at once, just so me and a pal can jam.

 

I've a Blackstar HT dual pedal with a line out and an out to go to amp.

If i run the line out into aux helix input would I get round the problem of not having active pickups on a guitar? I gather the aux input isn't the same as the guitar input.

 

Thanks

[MusicLaw]

You could give that a try to see how it sounds. The Pedal's output may do the job.

 

You could also try routing the pedal's Line Out to Helix's FX Return and configure the Input Block of the signal path for that guitar to use the FX Return. In Helix's Global Settings, set that FX Return to Line Level.

 

So long as you are not routing the power amp's output into your Helix, either of the Pedal's outputs may do the job. Granted they will be at different levels, but neither will kill your Helix's Aux In nor FX Return. Experiment and see which combination works and sounds best for you.

[tesshu]

Ooh, that's a good idea!

 

This is one of my favourite things about helix - so many options and possibilities with all those in and outs.

[brue58ski]

Thanks for the answers, glad I asked before giving it a go.

 

Not sure if next question would be better in a separate post but..

 

I really want to put 2 guitars through my helix at once, just so me and a pal can jam.

 

I've a Blackstar HT dual pedal with a line out and an out to go to amp.

If i run the line out into aux helix input would I get round the problem of not having active pickups on a guitar? I gather the aux input isn't the same as the guitar input.

 

Thanks

The aux input can be used for another instrument. So yes it can be done.

[kirias]

Hi! 

I've connected head's speaker out in Helix Return so that IR works as a cab and it works fine. Actually sounds awesome and even the effects sound great as well. Is this harmful for the unit? Damn sounds so good to be dangerous.. What do you guys think?

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, kirias said:

Hi! 

I've connected head's speaker out in Helix Return so that IR works as a cab and it works fine. Actually sounds awesome and even the effects sound great as well. Is this harmful for the unit? Damn sounds so good to be dangerous.. What do you guys think?

 

As mentioned in previous replies, generally not a good idea. HOWEVER - in another similar thread:

 

"How do I connect the cables If I'm using Two Notes Torpedo Captor load box with my tube amp?

 

Is this corret:

Helix send 1 to amp's input then load box output to helix return 1? Then IR block?"

 

I said:

 

"you definitely DO NOT want to connect either of the outputs on the back of the Torpedo to the Helix. That would cause all of the magic smoke to escape from your Helix, reducing it to a very expensive door stop! The connectors on the BACK of the Torpedo are for Speakers ONLY!"

 

zolko60 said :

 

"To clarify you definetly can't cause any magic smoke to escape from your Helix because Hx Input impedance is too high to draw current. All you can do is to damage your tube power amp. -20dB attenuated speaker output can work just fine as additional line output."

 

YMMV? Good luck!

 

 

[kirias]

9 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

As mentioned in previous replies, generally not a good idea. HOWEVER - in another similar thread:

 

"How do I connect the cables If I'm using Two Notes Torpedo Captor load box with my tube amp?

 

Is this corret:

Helix send 1 to amp's input then load box output to helix return 1? Then IR block?"

 

I said:

 

"you definitely DO NOT want to connect either of the outputs on the back of the Torpedo to the Helix. That would cause all of the magic smoke to escape from your Helix, reducing it to a very expensive door stop! The connectors on the BACK of the Torpedo are for Speakers ONLY!"

 

zolko60 said :

 

"To clarify you definetly can't cause any magic smoke to escape from your Helix because Hx Input impedance is too high to draw current. All you can do is to damage your tube power amp. -20dB attenuated speaker output can work just fine as additional line output."

 

YMMV? Good luck!

 

 

My head amp has a pre amp out as well. What if I connect the amp through this out into Helix return and use IR? Would this be safer?

[zolko60]

4 hours ago, kirias said:

My head amp has a pre amp out as well. What if I connect the amp through this out into Helix return and use IR? Would this be safer?

Sure, safer but when I connect preamps to IRs guess what... they sound like there is no power amp attached. :D My friend claims that the real tube amp sound is all about real power amp overdrive not preamp overdrive fart. ;)
So there is a better method - connect a di box between amp and guitar cab and steal the full fet yummy tube sound from there to Hx FL/RA mic input. In case of LT/ST an isolator to line level return shoud work as well. Your tube power amp is loaded with speaker. Di box is 30$, reactive load is 300$. I recommend passive transformer one for this purpose. Better isolation and no phantom power needed.
While isolators/separators are usually 1:1 unpadded, some math is needed:

Lets say Hx lline input is 6V at full scale and.your cab is 8ohm. P=U^2/R. Max power to get full modulation can not exceed 4,5W (it is still quite loud). So to get 100W (30V@8ohm) DI connected to line input will work just fine. Again, nothing harmul but distortion at AD converter will happen because its input imedance is too high to draw current.
Can your mileage vary? ;)

14 hours ago, kirias said:

Hi! 

I've connected head's speaker out in Helix Return so that IR works as a cab and it works fine. Actually sounds awesome and even the effects sound great as well. Is this harmful for the unit? Damn sounds so good to be dangerous.. What do you guys think?

You definitely have to load tube power amp for power tubes and output transformer safety (!) but also for the sound. No load or resistive load instead of reactive - no impedance cuve that shapes the power amp frequency response and harmonic distortion.

[rd2rk]

As zolko60 said, the only way to get your full amp sound is to use BOTH the pre and power amp sections. Everything else he said is technical gobbledy-lollipop TO ME, but I assume that he wouldn't tell you to do it if he hadn't tried it himself with his own rig. Right?

 

I'm a pretty simple guy, and have a pretty simple rule on this subject. If the jack says "SPEAKER OUT", it either gets connected to a speaker, or to a reactive load box or other device that's INTENDED for the purpose. I've never heard of a DI that's DESIGNED to take a SPEAKER OUT. Though they MAY exist, I think they're called LOAD BOXES or ATTENUATORS when they're INTENDED for that purpose.

 

The STANDARD WAY to do what you're trying to do is to run your guitar amp and Helix in 4cm and connect your amp's SPEAKER OUT to a REACTIVE LOAD BOX that has built-in IR capability.

 

It ain't cheap, but there must be a reason why it's the STANDARD WAY to do it. Yeah?

 

If you're doing this for recording purposes, you COULD try running the FX Loop Send/LINE OUT from your pre amp to the Helix to the AI (audio interface) and load something like Torpedo Wall of Sound (WOS) in the DAW. WOS has power amp simulations for most popular tube sets that are said to be quite realistic.

[rd2rk]

Gobbledy-g00k = Gobbledy-lollipop! THAT'S funny!

[zolko60]

2 hours ago, rd2rk said:

I'm a pretty simple guy, and have a pretty simple rule on this subject. If the jack says "SPEAKER OUT", it either gets connected to a speaker, or to a reactive load box or other device that's INTENDED for the purpose. I've never heard of a DI that's DESIGNED to take a SPEAKER OUT. Though they MAY exist, I think they're called LOAD BOXES or ATTENUATORS when they're INTENDED for that purpose.

I do not prompt anybody to connect speaker output only to a DI box. A load IS NECCESSARY!  The best load is the speaker. Di Box is connected paralell. Amp out is connected to DI In and DI passes signal to speaker by DI Thru, Technically speaking load boxes are artificial loads plus DI boxes. Torpedo can be used also as DI. Lots of amps used to have DI outs built in. They were useless some time ago because analog speaker simulations were poor. Now when we have IR technology we can at last take advantage of such a possibilty of interfacing.
There are some drawbacks of course - if you monitor with real guitar cab, all post amp effects must be routed to another monitor.
I believe 4CM method is better for live use and DI better for recording.
Di boxes are intended for a lot of purposes. I have couple of them. Samson S-direct has even switch label Guitar/Speaker. "Speaker" adds resistor to ground therefore pads and lowers the input impedance. It does not matter much. I found some schematics: http://sound.whsites.net/project35.htm
Still if somebody is not sure what he is doing and wants to record completlety silent having nice DAW IR loader full of IRs so reactive load is worth considering. Torpedo 300$, UA-OX 1300$.

[kirias]

What if I want to record using my head amp and Helix without mic? What is the procedure? Any product recommendations please?

[rd2rk]

32 minutes ago, kirias said:

What if I want to record using my head amp and Helix without mic? What is the procedure? Any product recommendations please?

 

4 hours ago, zolko60 said:

Still if somebody is not sure what he is doing and wants to record completlety silent having nice DAW IR loader full of IRs so reactive load is worth considering. Torpedo 300$, UA-OX 1300$.

 

That's how....

[kirias]

On 5/31/2019 at 8:41 PM, zolko60 said:

I do not prompt anybody to connect speaker output only to a DI box. A load IS NECCESSARY!  The best load is the speaker. Di Box is connected paralell. Amp out is connected to DI In and DI passes signal to speaker by DI Thru, Technically speaking load boxes are artificial loads plus DI boxes. Torpedo can be used also as DI. Lots of amps used to have DI outs built in. They were useless some time ago because analog speaker simulations were poor. Now when we have IR technology we can at last take advantage of such a possibilty of interfacing.
There are some drawbacks of course - if you monitor with real guitar cab, all post amp effects must be routed to another monitor.
I believe 4CM method is better for live use and DI better for recording.
Di boxes are intended for a lot of purposes. I have couple of them. Samson S-direct has even switch label Guitar/Speaker. "Speaker" adds resistor to ground therefore pads and lowers the input impedance. It does not matter much. I found some schematics: http://sound.whsites.net/project35.htm
Still if somebody is not sure what he is doing and wants to record completlety silent having nice DAW IR loader full of IRs so reactive load is worth considering. Torpedo 300$, UA-OX 1300$.

Is it possible to get dry signal and re-amp it using Helix, Torpedo Captor and a head amp?

[zolko60]

Sure it is. Helix can output both processed signal and DI to DAW either with USB or AES/EBU. Reamping with tube amp usually needs some galvanic separation and/or attenuation beetween interface output and amp input. If you have real speaker, no load box is necessary but DI box beetwen amp output and speaker (of course if someone wants to take advantage of IRs).