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fearuvthedark

Using an Alto TS210 for FRFR

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Hi All, 

 

     I just got my Helix LT about a week ago and have been going through FRFR solutions.  I have a little, 150 watt Phonic PA head going into two 10" 2-way speakers for dialing in tones and practicing at home.  I just bought an Alto TS210 to use for live gigs based on reviews and recommendations on the web and in this forum.  I was using it as a floor monitor and found it to be way heavy on bass.  To compare, my two 10" 2-way speakers also sit on the floor as monitors and are nowhere near that boomy.  Considering the TS210 has no eq, how do you all deal with the heavy bass out of this thing for live gigs?  It's almost like I would need doubles of my patches; one for practicing and another for live use?  Any thoughts or tips from others who use this speaker?  Thanks for any help you can give :)

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Have you tried the "contour" switch? many people here use TS212's and I would expect those to have even more bottom end.

 

Craig

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I tried it and did not like it.  To my ears it sounds better with Contour off.  This speaker would be perfect if it had a simple eq on it to dial back the bass.  My worry is if I dial back the bass on my patches than it'll sound thin when going to FOH.

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Get the TS series up on a stand or use the Global EQ in the Helix set to only be applied to the outputs going to the TS to change low end across all patches in the monitor without changing the low end on your main outs.

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Use the global EQ in the Helix or do it in the cabinet or IR on a patch by patch basis. Cut 130 HZ or below, .  I use altos exclusively, they are phenomenal (provided your patch is phenomenal)

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Alternativly, co could put a old sock (or a fresh one if you have) in the reflex port. No kidding - this could work for guitar use ;)

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Have you tried the "contour" switch? many people here use TS212's and I would expect those to have even more bottom end.

 

Craig

 

I have an Alto TS212. The contour button is like "loudness" on a stereo system; it ADDS bass and treble.

 

Get the TS series up on a stand or use the Global EQ in the Helix set to only be applied to the outputs going to the TS to change low end across all patches in the monitor without changing the low end on your main outs.

 

The stand is the best answer. When you set it on the floor there's a lot of coupling and it's extremely bass heavy. Mount it on a pole or an amp stand and it's a whole different ballgame! I learned this the hard way; I initially used a ton of low cut on the cabs sims until someone here suggested using a pole. Then I had to tweak my patches all over again but it was worth it; sounds great now!

 

BTW, you should avoid using global EQ when making your patches. Save it for when you have to tune your Helix to a room that has some acoustical problems.

 

I love this forum; I learned all of this stuff here!

 

(edit) One more thing: If you're going to be playing live, be sure to tweak at the approximate volume you'll be using it at.

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The problem here is you're running through two  very different types of systems that are bound to have different response characteristics.

 

First, the Phonic system is a powered PA system that uses unpowered speakers.  This is a fairly dated design and the speakers, although full range, are very much not flat response.  In that case there is a simple crossover design between the speaker and horn and no active circuit in the speakers for maintaining a true flat response.

 

The Alto TS210 is a more modern active design that uses a digital logic circuit for determining the way the frequencies will be allocated between the speaker and compression driver.  As is the case with most of these designs including very expensive speakers, the digital logic is tuned directly to the response of the speakers in order to provide a flat response.  As mentioned above it does provide for two different response systems on the speaker using the contour button.  If the contour button is depressed it adds 3dB of response to the very low and high end.  Not having the contour depressed would be a more traditional flat response.  There is an additional issue with these speakers in that if the speaker is placed on the floor in the monitor position you will tend to get bass coupling in which the low bass frequencies build up and you get a bassier response.  By placing these speakers on a pole with the contour button off you will get the flattest response.

 

The problem you will have is that by building your preset on the passive speaker Phonic system you will undoubtedly get a different response that's not as flat as the TS210.  It's also important to point out that it also will not likely match the response on a more modern design PA system that you would likely play through on an actual gig as those speakers are much more likely to be closer to the response of the TS210 than that of the Phonic.

 

Your best bet is to use the Alto speaker placed on a pole mount for dialing in your patches as that will most likely match the FOH PA systems you're likely to play through.

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This forum rocks, you all are a ton of help.  I went and bought a speaker stand today and will try it out!  My only question at that point would be live use as I would still want to use it as a monitor.  For that, dial back the bass with the global EQ?

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This forum rocks, you all are a ton of help.  I went and bought a speaker stand today and will try it out!  My only question at that point would be live use as I would still want to use it as a monitor.  For that, dial back the bass with the global EQ?

I believe you can change which outputs the global EQ effects. You can leave FOH unaffected, and just apply low cuts on global EQ for your monitor. 

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This forum rocks, you all are a ton of help.  I went and bought a speaker stand today and will try it out!  My only question at that point would be live use as I would still want to use it as a monitor.  For that, dial back the bass with the global EQ?

 

No. As I stated in my last post, tweak (or re-tweak) your sounds at gig volume if possible (I used to rent a rehearsal space to do that kind of thing; now that we bought a house a year ago, I can do it at home) and that should get you pretty close to what it's sounding like through FOH. If the speaker is sounding very different in the venue, then (and only then) you should use the global EQ to tune it to the room. Also, you can use the Alto's direct out to go straight to the FOH. In global settings, you should probably set all outputs to "line," but be sure the venue's mixing board has line inputs, some only have mic inputs.

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It's almost like I would need doubles of my patches; one for practicing and another for live use? 

 

No "almost" about it. I use my Helix either with my Alto or with my in-ear monitors and headphone jack. I made a separate setlist for each and the EQs are very different between the two.

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Honestly, this is one of the reasons I won't use a 12" floor monitor. 10" is the biggest I'll use, and the one I currently own is only 8".

 

But if I had to, I'd just make sure it sounds great in the house and ignore the speaker's boominess.

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Oh, wait... it IS a 10" driver?

That's interesting, they usually work for me.

But... another reason why Alto costs as little as it does... jus' saying'...

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Honestly, this is one of the reasons I won't use a 12" floor monitor. 10" is the biggest I'll use, and the one I currently own is only 8".

 

 

Peter, what is the 8" floor monitor you are using? Thanks

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Peter, what is the 8" floor monitor you are using? Thanks

FBT Verve 8ma. No longer made.

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The Alto's are very bassy.  You gotta replace the bass speaker with more of a mid range speaker,

 

example - Eminence Deltalite II 2510-4 Neo 10" Driver 4 Ohm

 

after you do that you will be very happy.

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  My worry is if I dial back the bass on my patches than it'll sound thin when going to FOH.

 

This is the main reason I use a QSC K series behind me.  We use QSC mains, so I know that what I hear behind me is exactly the same as what I'm getting through FOH.     I know this is hard to do if you play in venues with their own sound systems, but we play almost exclusively in venues that require us to bring our own PA, subs/mains etc.  

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