Digital like distortion like a shirt

[wabicabanias]

I know this has been commented on in other threads, but I want to reiterate and give my point of view.

 

One of the characteristics of this device is to imitate the sound of the original amplifiers point by point, its characteristics, its advantages and its problems have been imitated.

 

But when I use a half-gain or a clean amp and I add a distortion pedal, I can hear some sort of shirt surrounding the main sound.

An artificial coating that sounds digital and does not look exactly like the wake that real amplifiers leave.

 

It is a bit ugly effect that is hidden in high gain amplifiers or when you are playing very often and fast, or over music and with other instruments.

 

It is heard by any of the available outputs including USB.

 

I leave here a few tests that I have done to listen to them and tell me if it is what is expected of Helix, and I am freaking out.

Or is it true that digital distortion is … waiting for it to be solved in a new firmware update.

 

Thanks in advance  ;)

 

https://soundcloud.com/wabicabanias/pruebas-helix

 

 

[cruisinon2]

But when I use a half-gain or a clean amp and I add a distortion pedal, I can hear some sort of shirt surrounding the main sound.

 

An artificial coating that sounds digital and does not look exactly like the wake that real amplifiers leave.

 

For the life of me, I haven't the faintest idea what this means...

[rvroberts]

I'm listening to your examples - I hear a nasty after sound as the distortion fades away - is that what you are talking about?

I don't experience this.  Well I probably could make something do it - I've not tried to make that sound - obviously!

I'm also not using those amps - but I'm guessing it's not amp model specific.

Are you maybe running everything too hot?  You say you are using a Strat - that should not be a problem - have you tried playing with your input impedance?

Are your level outs matched to your recording levels.  It's a distortion that from my experience should not be there.  It's very digital and could well be clipping.

Do you use any global or per preset EQ?  (it doesn't sound like the standard problem of too much high frequency, but try cutting on the Helix everything above 5K - not that I think that is your problem)  This is the sort of sound I don't like from some cheap guitar emulators that are totally PC based.....not what I experience from the Helix.

You need to try to find where you are creating this sound - if you can't make it go away, your Helix might be faulty..........

But first check everything in the sound chain.

On second listen - I'm sure there is clipping - I notice some quieter hits sound better - bring down the input level - see if you can make it go away that way - and again - check impedance.

[zooey]

Turn on the input pad, more likely to avoid clipping than anything to do with input impedence.

[MusicLaw]

If you have not (re)installed the latest version 2.21 firmware and performed the combination Footswith 9 and 10 Press and Hold Restart Procedure, do so to determine if it doing so remedies what you are encountering.

[wabicabanias]

For the life of me, I haven't the faintest idea what this means...

:D Sorry , my english is no so good. I wanted to say trails not "wake". I mean the sound that fade out behind the main sound in real amps, in helix that "tail" is like sorrounding the core of the sound , not blended with it

[wabicabanias]

I'm listening to your examples - I hear a nasty after sound as the distortion fades away - is that what you are talking about?

I don't experience this.  Well I probably could make something do it - I've not tried to make that sound - obviously!

I'm also not using those amps - but I'm guessing it's not amp model specific.

Are you maybe running everything too hot?  You say you are using a Strat - that should not be a problem - have you tried playing with your input impedance?

Are your level outs matched to your recording levels.  It's a distortion that from my experience should not be there.  It's very digital and could well be clipping.

Do you use any global or per preset EQ?  (it doesn't sound like the standard problem of too much high frequency, but try cutting on the Helix everything above 5K - not that I think that is your problem)  This is the sort of sound I don't like from some cheap guitar emulators that are totally PC based.....not what I experience from the Helix.

You need to try to find where you are creating this sound - if you can't make it go away, your Helix might be faulty..........

But first check everything in the sound chain.

On second listen - I'm sure there is clipping - I notice some quieter hits sound better - bring down the input level - see if you can make it go away that way - and again - check impedance.

Hi. Thanks for the time.... I have tried the same in another Helix and the same occurs.

All possible cuts in Irs and many changes with the global settings ... the trail is always there.

If you carefully listen videos and demos you can hear it in many of them (I don´t think is a problem of my single Helix).

Even so I´m gonna prove with Pad and impedance again. But my strat has seymour duncan perly gates and no much gain at all

I friend of mine, expert musician knows this issue and thinks like me. Is a problem, perhaps, of firmware

[wabicabanias]

If you have not (re)installed the latest version 2.21 firmware and performed the combination Footswith 9 and 10 Press and Hold Restart Procedure, do so to determine if it doing so remedies what you are encountering.

I have installed the latest version and I guess I did the combination to restart... It would be good do it again?

[phil_m]

Some amount of fizz is simply inherent in guitar amps, and I think people tend to notice it more with modelers than with real amps because they're not used to listening to the close-miced sound of their amps. Some of it can be dialed out using the amp parameters - master volume and bias are probably the two biggest ones. I also think that running some distortions into clean amps will always sound fizzy. The Rat, for instance, is like a fizz machine, imo.

 

Anyway, take a look at this thread in the Fractal boards: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/ghost-fizz-revisited.108721/

[wabicabanias]

I'm listening to your examples - I hear a nasty after sound as the distortion fades away - is that what you are talking about?

I don't experience this.  Well I probably could make something do it - I've not tried to make that sound - obviously!

I'm also not using those amps - but I'm guessing it's not amp model specific.

Are you maybe running everything too hot?  You say you are using a Strat - that should not be a problem - have you tried playing with your input impedance?

Are your level outs matched to your recording levels.  It's a distortion that from my experience should not be there.  It's very digital and could well be clipping.

Do you use any global or per preset EQ?  (it doesn't sound like the standard problem of too much high frequency, but try cutting on the Helix everything above 5K - not that I think that is your problem)  This is the sort of sound I don't like from some cheap guitar emulators that are totally PC based.....not what I experience from the Helix.

You need to try to find where you are creating this sound - if you can't make it go away, your Helix might be faulty..........

But first check everything in the sound chain.

On second listen - I'm sure there is clipping - I notice some quieter hits sound better - bring down the input level - see if you can make it go away that way - and again - check impedance.

Hello again... you has a Helix and a guitar with normal pickups?

You do those type of adjustments that you are advicing to me? Because I did the presets for the sound file you heard with only amp+cab block and both of the guitars are passive,  with no much output gain. It is no normal to do such things in a habitual using, I guess. ... frustrating

[wabicabanias]

Some amount of fizz is simply inherent in guitar amps, and I think people tend to notice it more with modelers than with real amps because they're not used to listening to the close-miced sound of their amps. Some of it can be dialed out using the amp parameters - master volume and bias are probably the two biggest ones. I also think that running some distortions into clean amps will always sound fizzy. The Rat, for instance, is like a fizz machine, imo.

 

Anyway, take a look at this thread in the Fractal boards: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/ghost-fizz-revisited.108721/

Thank you very much!

It was my way of thinking, Yesterday I was talking to my luthier and we both discussed the idea that the amplifiers have that kind of whistle and it is necessary to hear it very close to the speaker ... but when you hear in Helix so clear and present it seems like digital . I'm going to take a full  look at the link that you propose but I do not know if I get used to the idea that this is how it should be. I think I'm not the only one in these forums that has my point of view. And maybe this type of Helix response can be fine-tuned  in later updates ...

 

Anyway thank you very much.

[themetallikid]

I tried listening to the link and it wont play for me.  

[MrViv]

You could attenuate this by increasing Bias amp control.

 

On my clean amps patches, it's always maxed at 10 and it helped a lot.

[Andy1175]

You could attenuate this by increasing Bias amp control.

 

On my clean amps patches, it's always maxed at 10 and it helped a lot.

 

I agree with this, try adjusting the bias, it can make a hige difference fizz-wise. 

 

-

[steevo1977]

I don't get results like this. It sounds almost like there is no cab model or IR after the amp or that there is something really wrong with gain staging.

 

Are you applying any cuts to the cab/IR?

[DunedinDragon]

Hi. Thanks for the time.... I have tried the same in another Helix and the same occurs.

All possible cuts in Irs and many changes with the global settings ... the trail is always there.

If you carefully listen videos and demos you can hear it in many of them (I don´t think is a problem of my single Helix).

Even so I´m gonna prove with Pad and impedance again. But my strat has seymour duncan perly gates and no much gain at all

I friend of mine, expert musician knows this issue and thinks like me. Is a problem, perhaps, of firmware

 

With the thousands of Helix users out there if this were a prevalent problem with Helix you would hear more about it.  I doubt all of us have tin ears and only you and a few others can hear it.  I've never experienced what you're talking about, but then again it could be specific to the combination of amp model you're using and the specific distortion pedal, or your output mechanism or some combination I haven't come across.  But clearly from the responses here people aren't experiencing this in mass.

 

I might be easier if we knew the exact pieces involved in this.  What amp model, gain settings, which distortion pedal and it's settings, which cab/mic/mic positions so we can see if we can duplicate it.  Or potentially post the patch to CustomTone so we can see if it duplicates on our setups.

[jbuhajla]

I might be easier if we knew the exact pieces involved in this.  What amp model, gain settings, which distortion pedal and it's settings, which cab/mic/mic positions so we can see if we can duplicate it.  Or potentially post the patch to CustomTone so we can see if it duplicates on our setups.

^This^ as well as guitar and pickups you are using. 

 

I have a feeling OP is talking about the "fizz", but I can't quite tell. 

[wabicabanias]

You could attenuate this by increasing Bias amp control.

 

On my clean amps patches, it's always maxed at 10 and it helped a lot.

 

Yes I am trying now with that… Thanks

[wabicabanias]

With the thousands of Helix users out there if this were a prevalent problem with Helix you would hear more about it.  I doubt all of us have tin ears and only you and a few others can hear it.  I've never experienced what you're talking about, but then again it could be specific to the combination of amp model you're using and the specific distortion pedal, or your output mechanism or some combination I haven't come across.  But clearly from the responses here people aren't experiencing this in mass.

 

I might be easier if we knew the exact pieces involved in this.  What amp model, gain settings, which distortion pedal and it's settings, which cab/mic/mic positions so we can see if we can duplicate it.  Or potentially post the patch to CustomTone so we can see if it duplicates on our setups.

Sometimes weird people find things nobody see or listen to…  :P

[wabicabanias]

In this video I share the guy try all models of amplifier, and in almost all I clearly hear that hairy sound that surrounds the main tone of the amp.

This sincerely leaves me a little more calm😊

The fact is that although in some cases that strange sound tail I do not like and makes me a little nervous , I've never heard most of the amps that imitate the Helix I have not the opportunity to use the real amps and check if that fizz is there, so I would have to make an effort and believe it.

For the rest I will continue waiting for the next updates that surely will improve this fantastic device...

Cheers

[jbuhajla]

The fizz or "sizzle" is normal, and it exists in the real amps as well. 

 

[wabicabanias]

The fizz or "sizzle" is normal, and it exists in the real amps as well. 

 

 

Thanks a a lot…I'm resigning and almost accepting that it may be so, although it would be well to implement a function that overrides those effects in case you have to record in a studio with a sound technician too strict jejejeje

[HonestOpinion]

I have listened to your track on soundcloud and I definitely hear that nasty sound you are referring to. I would say digital clipping is not a bad guess. It does remind me of a few things other things as well, not that I could localize it to any one.

• Digital clipping
• The sound you get when an effect, particularly a digital effect, is not getting a high enough input signal level and starts to introduce strange artifacts. This relates to the next point.
• The sound when S/N ratio starts to get too low and the noise floor starts getting louder than the signal
• The sound when a poor wireless signal starts to peter out at the end of a note and the low signal level causes the amp to misbehave.
• The sound when something physical on the guitar is causing a problem, e.g. buzzing fret, bad cord, bad jack, vibration in the whammy bar assembly or machines, etc.
• Delay effect repeats seriously degrading the original signal

The video on fizz posted above definitely does a great job of pointing out that some of our favorite solos coming from our favorite artists and studios contains fizz but I am still not convinced that this is not the product of something having gone slightly awry in the recording process or even in the rig that was used for the guitar part. Even if it ends up sounding great in the overall recording. It also seems important to differentiate between the kind of high end "sizzle" that sounds great in a mix even if it sounds raw and not so good with the guitar track isolated..., and the fizz that sounds like a digital amp or effect sputtering out. I don't feel that I get the sound being heard on your Soundcloud track on my physical real amps and effects unless something is wrong. I am not sure I buy the argument that it is "natural" and always present in a guitar signal, but maybe it is. If it is always present in an analog signal, then it seems like there are times then where it is getting overemphasized in the digital world, again going back to the S/N ratio. The digital realm with its surplus of EQ and processing options certainly provides plenty of latitude to overemphasize parts of the guitar signal that are not desirable. Ultimately I think that fizzy breaking up sound represents something not quite right somewhere in the signal path.

Occasionally I end up with a preset like this on the Helix (and probably most other modelers) and unless it is something obvious like a delay with the "Headroom" parameter not set properly I usually just move on and create a new preset. It is probably a matter of not having a block set up correctly or something about the amp or effect blocks used, my signal path, the quality of the delay repeats, or perhaps EQ that is overemphasizing the noisy crappy part of the signal. I definitely don't hear this on most of my presets and if this is a "natural" part of the guitar signal I agree with your suggestion that there is no good reason not to figure out how to get rid of it with a filter or processing.

The digital world has the potential of improving on guitar tone. Conversely the sheer clarity of a digital signal can allow us to hear things not so evident or prominent in the analog world including unpleasant sounds that should be attenuated. That attenuation often happens naturally in the analog world with its limited frequency range and unique equipment characteristics but may require active intervention with a digital signal.  Listen to a CD versus a vinyl record if you want a demonstration of that. Even so, why settle for audible nastiness for the sake of authenticity, even if it exists in the analog world as well?

 

This reminds me a bit of the discussion surrounding why EQ cuts on the high end are often required with digital modeling. With digital modeling and FRFR speakers you get the potential for a wider frequency range than you would hear through a traditional guitar amp. Just because the digital realm is capable of reproducing every nuance of the guitar and effects' signal in vivid technicolor does not mean you want to hear every part of that generated sound in every corner of the frequency range. It seems that the same would apply to nasty guitar artifacts that may naturally occur. That part of the signal needs to be attenuated or eliminated. Most presets seems to do that quite well for me but I do run into isolated instances where the nasty jumps out at you.

[wabicabanias]

I have listened to your track on soundcloud and I definitely hear that nasty sound you are referring to. I would say digital clipping is not a bad guess. It does remind me of a few things other things as well, not that I could localize it to any one.

• Digital clipping
• The sound you get when an effect, particularly a digital effect, is not getting a high enough input signal level and starts to introduce strange artifacts. This relates to the next point.
• The sound when S/N ratio starts to get too low and the noise floor starts getting louder than the signal
• The sound when a poor wireless signal starts to peter out at the end of a note and the low signal level causes the amp to misbehave.
• The sound when something physical on the guitar is causing a problem, e.g. buzzing fret, bad cord, bad jack, vibration in the whammy bar assembly or machines, etc.
• Delay effect repeats seriously degrading the original signal

The video on fizz posted above definitely does a great job of pointing out that some of our favorite solos coming from our favorite artists and studios contains fizz but I am still not convinced that this is not the product of something having gone slightly awry in the recording process or even in the rig that was used for the guitar part. Even if it ends up sounding great in the overall recording. It also seems important to differentiate between the kind of high end "sizzle" that sounds great in a mix even if it sounds raw and not so good with the guitar track isolated..., and the fizz that sounds like a digital amp or effect sputtering out. I don't feel that I get the sound being heard on your Soundcloud track on my physical real amps and effects unless something is wrong. I am not sure I buy the argument that it is "natural" and always present in a guitar signal, but maybe it is. If it is always present in an analog signal, then it seems like there are times then where it is getting overemphasized in the digital world, again going back to the S/N ratio. The digital realm with its surplus of EQ and processing options certainly provides plenty of latitude to overemphasize parts of the guitar signal that are not desirable. Ultimately I think that fizzy breaking up sound represents something not quite right somewhere in the signal path.

 

Occasionally I end up with a preset like this on the Helix (and probably most other modelers) and unless it is something obvious like a delay with the "Headroom" parameter not set properly I usually just move on and create a new preset. It is probably a matter of not having a block set up correctly or something about the amp or effect blocks used, my signal path, the quality of the delay repeats, or perhaps EQ that is overemphasizing the noisy crappy part of the signal. I definitely don't hear this on most of my presets and if this is a "natural" part of the guitar signal I agree with your suggestion that there is no good reason not to figure out how to get rid of it with a filter or processing.

 

The digital world has the potential of improving on guitar tone. Conversely the sheer clarity of a digital signal can allow us to hear things not so evident or prominent in the analog world including unpleasant sounds that should be attenuated. That attenuation often happens naturally in the analog world with its limited frequency range and unique equipment characteristics but may require active intervention with a digital signal.  Listen to a CD versus a vinyl record if you want a demonstration of that. Even so, why settle for audible nastiness for the sake of authenticity, even if it exists in the analog world as well?

 

This reminds me a bit of the discussion surrounding why EQ cuts on the high end are often required with digital modeling. With digital modeling and FRFR speakers you get the potential for a wider frequency range than you would hear through a traditional guitar amp. Just because the digital realm is capable of reproducing every nuance of the guitar and effects' signal in vivid technicolor does not mean you want to hear every part of that generated sound in every corner of the frequency range. It seems that the same would apply to nasty guitar artifacts that may naturally occur. That part of the signal needs to be attenuated or eliminated. Most presets seems to do that quite well for me but I do run into isolated instances where the nasty jumps out at you.

 

Wow completely agree with you!

I hope someone in the software development department at Helix, think and act with these things to improve the "excessive quality of the modeling" and to remove a little the defects of the real amps that the Helix machine try to imitate, because in the real world are even appreciable but in the digital field are not so pretty … indeed, that is

[HonestOpinion]

Wanted to also mention noise gates. If the gate does not close gracefully you can sometimes get weird sounds from effects or amps downstream processing the last dying gasp from the noise gate.

[wabicabanias]

Wanted to also mention noise gates. If the gate does not close gracefully you can sometimes get weird sounds from effects or amps downstream processing the last dying gasp from the noise gate.

 

Ok, I know well , but in my samples there is nothing but amp+cab blocks ; no gate, no global or block EQ, no nothing

[HonestOpinion]

Ok, I know well , but in may samples there is nothing but amp+cab blocks ; no gate, no global or block EQ, no nothing

 

You are probably already aware of it but there is a noise gate on every Input block. You are most likely designing your presets from scratch but some users find that the notes on their solos are losing sustain when they first start using the Factory presets due to a noise gate setting that is too aggressive for their particular guitar's output signal. The cause of this is not so obvious because the noise gate does not show up as a separate block but, as aforementioned, part of the Input block.

[jrrjr68]

 

I know this has been commented on in other threads, but I want to reiterate and give my point of view.

 

One of the characteristics of this device is to imitate the sound of the original amplifiers point by point, its characteristics, its advantages and its problems have been imitated.

 

But when I use a half-gain or a clean amp and I add a distortion pedal, I can hear some sort of shirt surrounding the main sound.

An artificial coating that sounds digital and does not look exactly like the wake that real amplifiers leave.

 

It is a bit ugly effect that is hidden in high gain amplifiers or when you are playing very often and fast, or over music and with other instruments.

 

It is heard by any of the available outputs including USB.

 

I leave here a few tests that I have done to listen to them and tell me if it is what is expected of Helix, and I am freaking out.

Or is it true that digital distortion is … waiting for it to be solved in a new firmware update.

 

Thanks in advance  ;)

 

https://soundcloud.com/wabicabanias/pruebas-helix

 

hello sir. 

It may sound crazy.. but ry to leave distortion gain at 0 or just above slightly.. back off gain on amp to like 5 -6.0.

I have found the distortion adds a little punch regardless if gain is turned up or not.. and for me.. what sounds right in monitors {more gain} didn't sound right in recording. 

Two cleaner guitar tracks panned lefft and right combined will add more gain in the end and can blend them nicely to play well with each other.