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cgar18

Tube amps Gone?

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Like I said, there are amps worth keeping for that "special" sound you can't seem to find elsewhere. That does NOT mean that you cant take an Axe FX II, Kemper, or Helix out on tour (or in the studio) and kill with it, as many are doing right now. 

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After getting kemper 2 years ago I sold all my amps because I couldn't tell the difference between the profiles I made and the mic'd signal from my amps, which is all I ever hear anyway because I'm on IEMs. Then I discovered mbritt and got a nice tone upgrade. That's right, my tone with kemper was better than the mic'd up tone from my own tube amps. 

Then I started getting tired of pedals so I got a Helix. Same thing.

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Seems like lots of you are selling your tube rigs. I'm always looking for older Marshall, HiWatt, Orange, Fenders etc.  if you are thinking of unloading give me a shout. 

As far as the OP - I have not made the move to amp sims or IR's for live - still use my tube rigs. I do however always carry a load box if the engineer wants to use that at the board. Tried my Helix and an FRFR maybe twice for live but came back to tubes. Studio - different story. I always record a tube and the Helix / Kemper or plugin.  

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Axxxeman you're talking about putting a pod up against a tube amp and yes the pod did fall flat back in the day, but that is a 20 years old example... have you used a helix??

 

As stated above, before buying a tube amp one or two years ago, I WAS testing several amps, among those some actual LINE6 combos (modelling). The tube amps (Fender Blues junior and the Marshall DSL 15) were by far (!!) the winners of this test. I was not able to test the helix in a band with two guitarists so far, but I will surely do so soon.

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"You" didnt...  ;)

 

No, what you were stating was that I couldn't hear the difference between that "good tube tone" versus one of those err...., modelers...   On a "modeler" forum no less- LOL. But,  that's ok, and you are entitled to your opinion as am I and the rest of us. Speaking from experience, you too can choose to be wrong as much as you like here.  :P

 

Why are you twisting around my words? Here is the original quote: "Well, if you hear no difference, then you may well abstain from using a good amp ...  ^_^" If you feel embarrassed that I used the word "good amp" ... well, that's because there are not ONLY good tube amps out there, a thing, I was assuming you could agree to. Well ...

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Simple question, simple answer. A pro will hardly do without his tube amp on stage. Why? Because it's not only about sound, but also about sound pressure. And in respect to the latter there is NOTHING yet to replace a tube amp. Believe me, I have done some serious testing recently, tube amps, transistor amps, modeling or virtual amps, as combo or with monitors. If it were for sound reasons alone, you could easily skip your tube amp, e.g in a studio ...

 

Alex Lifeson

Joe Satriani

Don Felder

Keith Urban

Trevor Rabim

Opeth. (entire band)

Brit Floyd (nothing but bass amps and monitors)

Phil Collen

 

Unless they are not pros. The list could go on.  Sound Pressure is important for hearing loss. Ask Pete Townshend or Phil Collins. It is the moving of air that you describe that prevent many from switching. The audience hears zero difference. The days of walls of amps are gone. Even the mains have gotten smaller and lighter.

I should add that Lifeson may be using the four cable method with his axfx. He was using HiWatts off stage. and miked. He definitely started usingg AXFX though.

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As stated above, before buying a tube amp one or two years ago, I WAS testing several amps, among those some actual LINE6 combos (modelling). The tube amps (Fender Blues junior and the Marshall DSL 15) were by far (!!) the winners of this test. I was not able to test the helix in a band with two guitarists so far, but I will surely do so soon.

King Crimson currently use a Helix. If i recall correctly they also have AXFX and Kemper on.stage. Even old Southern Rockers have embraced modeling to some degree. I noticed a Kemper on stage at their show. 

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Why are you twisting around my words? Here is the original quote: "Well, if you hear no difference, then you may well abstain from using a good amp ...  ^_^" If you feel embarrassed that I used the word "good amp" ... well, that's because there are not ONLY good tube amps out there, a thing, I was assuming you could agree to. Well ...

Reread your post and quit trying to wiggle out from under your wrong flat statements about not being a pro unless you have a tube amp on stage, and just admit you were wrong. There is no twisting here. Not only that, but do you even own and use what you are suggesting is inferior to tube amps? It would help your argument a little if you did. That's like saying chocolate tastes funny but you've not tried any yet. No, I'm not embarrassed about helping (or correcting) you (or anyone else) and I admit when I'm wrong here, just ask anyone. Hell, we are all wrong at some point and no one holds back on me lol. :lol: And one more thing, your statement to me read like you are/were suggesting I am disagreeing (with your tube amp being better on stage ideas) only because I can't hear the difference in tone, while you can. That in itself is the accurate definition of what a tube snob says because they already know everything so don't confuse them with any facts. If that is the case, it is condescending and rude. If not, my apologies in the way I read it.

 

Sound Pressure is important for hearing loss. Ask Pete Townshend or Phil Collins. It is the moving of air that you describe that prevent many from switching. The audience hears zero difference. The days of walls of amps are gone. Even the mains have gotten smaller and lighter.

 

 

I could not have said that better Ralph!!!
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Reread your post and quit trying to wiggle out from under your wrong flat statements about not being a pro unless you have a tube amp on stage, and just admit you were wrong. There is no twisting here. Not only that, but do you even own and use what you are suggesting is inferior to tube amps? It would help your argument a little if you did. That's like saying chocolate tastes funny but you've not tried any yet. No, I'm not embarrassed about helping (or correcting) you (or anyone else) and I admit when I'm wrong here, just ask anyone. Hell, we are all wrong at some point and no one holds back on me lol. :lol: And one more thing, your statement to me read like you are/were suggesting I am disagreeing (with your tube amp being better on stage ideas) only because I can't hear the difference in tone, while you can. That in itself is the accurate definition of what a tube snob says because they already know everything so don't confuse them with any facts. If that is the case, it is condescending and rude. If not, my apologies in the way I read it.

 

 

I could not have said that better Ralph!!!

No use arguing with someone who keeps WANTING to malinterpret statements and reading only what he wants to read. If you' are not doing it intentionally, my apologies, but then you might want to consider that not all here are native english speakers. And, as you recognized absolutely correctly, I have no motive whatsoever to devaluate what I own personally. I was merely stating my experiences and not only my own ones, but also of many, many pros. From time to time I do go to concerts and I do like to talk to other musicians, especially guitarists. Here we are in a helix forum where it is self-evident, that the strong followers of modelling amps are concentrated. But that does not "prove", that your opinion about tube amps can be generalized. In the contrary, I would LOVE to be wronged, because right now I've got a big incompatibility prob with helix and Marshall by 4CM and things would be a LOT easier, when I could establish some amp simulation and go directly into the PA. But still I am not yet convinced enough to rely just on some tiny monitor speakers with another guitarist running a full backline in the band ...

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But still I am not yet convinced enough to rely just on some tiny monitor speakers with another guitarist running a full backline in the band ... 

 

Axe that is where one of your issues is about understanding all this FRFR stuff.  Those "tiny" monitor speakers you speak of,  are not tiny under powered Radio-Shack junk. In fact, they will blow yer head off cranked up.  ;)  I'm talking about some studio quality FRFR monitors like the Atomic CLR's (or those like them quality wise). Each output 500 watts and a pair of those pointed at your face (unlike typical cabinets that point at your knees) are more powerful than you will need in my opinion and yes I owned a pair. Also, you might consider a Line 6 Firehawk 1500 "as a monitor". I have one and use it for that. It's MONSTER loud if I want it to be, and I have the option to use its amp/cab patches if I chose to. I think someone has misinformed you on the tone and power these have. 

 

CLR

 

Firehawk 1500

 

but then you might want to consider that not all here are native english speakers

 

No, I didn't catch on to that because you didn't state it until now, and because you are fluid in English as far as text goes. I just considered you knew like we all do, that flat statements need to be completely flat (without errors), and what you stated has bumps all in it (not only my opinion but many). :)  It's ok bud, but I still believe you are incorrect about not being a pro unless you have a tube amp on stage. You are NOT the only one that thinks this way either. That's why today's options for guitarist are great!!! I didn't mean to misrepresent what you posted and to my knowledge I didn't, but I'll give you some wiggle room because I now know English is not your native language. It's all good- Peace Brother.

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Different strokes for different folks. Been iaong only the helix to my PA for a little over a year. Loved it.

 

Last week I plugged into a tube amp.

 

I guess I didn't know I was missing it until I did it. I loved it. I bought the amp. I played better. I got in the mood better. I took it out for dinner. We had a romantic intimate evening.

 

I don't have it ready for gigging yet. Trying to work out why the 4cm is sucking all the tone from the amp and causing a crap ton of noise in the loop.

 

Considering returning to a full analog rig with midi switchers. Anyone have $3k I could borrow for about ... 50 years?

 

I pretty much thought I had the helix nailed down. After a year of using only the helix and then plugging into a PRS Custom 50... Jesus it's amazing just how much I missed the feel of that tube amp and the picking dynamics that come with it. Not even an amp in the room thing. It was just awesome even when mic'd up in another room.... It all translated through the PA.

 

Now I gotta go get the wife some flowers or something. I think she's getting jealous. I suppose I could have invited her to the dinner. But third wheel and all.

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Dear Spikey, it's not about volume or at least not about volume alone. On stage / in rehearsal room I have "my" space that extends from my amp a few feet from the drummers right hand side (seen from the audience) to the center of the stage. I will have a monitor box directly in front of my Helix and my mic. One only, we are no pros. If I do not want to be stuck there, I need to hear myself in "my" other areas, too. That job will be done my the amp. BTW, live we use full stacks each. One speaker box sends out my own signal, the other one comes from the other guitarist's amp (who has the same setup on his side beside the bass amp. This way it works great. And volume cannot be sooo high on monitor speakers on stage for avoiding microphone feedback. If I could hear me only by the monitor box, it would be a pretty stationary gig ...  ;)  Maybe, one day, with in-ear-monitoring ...  B)

 

 It's ok bud, but I still believe you are incorrect about not being a pro unless you have a tube amp on stage.

 

 

You might be surprised, but I don't think that way. Modelling WILL become accepted live in the same way as it is now in the studio. Still I don't think that it will take a little bit time until this will be mainstream. "Pro" to me does not depend on what equipment you use, but how good you succeed to entertain your audience. Not less, no more. Still I always will come back to my own experience:

  • I want my tube amp in my back for practicability. (AND sound reasons - I am so happy with my Marshall's sound) reasons
  • All concerts I heard so far from bands without a classical backline had a bad sound, at least a bad FOH sound. This might have reasons that are way beyond the question of backline or not, but ... suspicion stays on ...  B)

Well, thanks for your compliment on my "language", but it is partly leo.org ... and I did by far not understand all you were stating, because leo does not know all of your expressions. But I definetely DID understand "PEACE"! So I say, too. What a great complete agreement  :lol:

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SOLD my DT25 when I got the helix, replacing it with a EON610

Also had a Marshall JTM60 that I never used, so sold that to an aficionado 

 

Still have a Spider Jam, my first LIne6 purchase - its not a tube amp, but I still have it. Clearing out my collection of multi-effects pedals. Primarily I use the Helix with its built in looper or Trio+ through an FRFR - either the 610 for playing with a drummer, or a Lunch box for practice.

I would SERIOUSLY reconsider the EON610. I know its budget friendly, but it sucks so hard! To put it lightly. Don't do it man. We play a venue thats usually always busy, its right on Lake Michigan in a very well to do area. They have EON610's as monitors.... We have come to the point that we aren't going to play there anymore unless we can setup our own PA system. Heck I pretty much don't want to play anywhere I can't setup my system, the full system, lights, band, drums, everything goes up in 30-45 minutes MAX! and smokes the venue PA systems out here. They all cheap out on the sound system and then require the band to use it..... Over my Midas and JBL system, and our own sound guy... who has well over 30 years experience running live sound and studio work? Bite me! 

 

End Rant:

 

I've brought this up a few times in different threads. Go audition a JBL PRX715 or PRX712. You can get it for a dollar and a dream since JBL released the PRX800 series. Its a fantastic speaker at a great price and it will last. My whole FOH system is PRX700 series and they have been around the block, used daily in my studio and out twice a week on the weekends for a little over a year now. They haven't given me any grief at all, and I am NOT exaggerating when I say they're used A LOT. We've had a packed play schedule since the beginning of the year, even outside on a 96F day with direct sunlight beating down on the mains and subs. 

 

Another option is the Mackie monitors the group had when I joined up. We use the SRM450 as our stage monitors, I use no other back line than the Helix. I like the PRX715s better, but up on stage I don't have the option as thats my FOH. The SRM450s do just fine and SMOKE the eon610s.... I can't exaggerate just how much I detest listening to my patches through that thing.

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As much as I love Helix and everything it offers, both in terms of variety and practicality, I doubt I will ever get rid of my amp heads, especially my Orange OR100, which through my Torpedo Live offers a warmth, thickness, responsiveness and grit that none of my Helix tones can deliver (or any of the 100's of demos I heard online). :-)

 

But still - Helix is a hell of a tool with a load of options, but I certainly do feel a big difference changing from real amp to Helix, or the other way around.   :-)

(Edit: the above is mostly regarding recording at home)

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I would SERIOUSLY reconsider the EON610. I know its budget friendly, but it sucks so hard! 

 

probably should have said "Replaced" as I already have it. I use it mostly for rehearsals with a drummer and would use it for an occasional gig. There's a couple of things I dont like about it - the EQ is ONLY available through the iPad bluetooth interface which is unreliable; Would have preferred to have bluetooth receiver making it a little more versatile.

 

I can see what you're saying - for the budget, it suits me well, but if I was putting together a full gigging rig I'd probably go in another direction, as you point out.

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I was testing the Helix through PA and, so sorry, it is not the same thing as running a tube amp. For one thing: with thebgain of my Marshall every note immediately starts to "sing" (controlled feedback). In the same volume with a Helix nor by PA speakers (FOH), neither with monitor, I can get any feedback at all. It's simply not the same ...

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I just got around to wiring up my Helix as a 'pedalboard only' with my Friedman (Runt 50) amp. It's bloody fantastic! Not using any Helix amp or cab modeling; just FX, snapshots, routing, and channel changing on the Friedman. Plus sending the cab model direct out from the Friedman back to the Helix! Win-Win...

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Last week I fired up my Koch Studiotone and pedals. It really felt like coming home, BUT when I use Helix, I don't feel I'm missing anything. It's just cool to have both rigs side by side.

 

Last month I spent a couple of weeks reprogramming my patches. It drove me crazy, going in circles, trying to get the sound I hear in my head. Using my trusty old amp and pedals as reference was very valuable. Right now my patches are better than ever.

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I just got around to wiring up my Helix as a 'pedalboard only' with my Friedman (Runt 50) amp. It's bloody fantastic! Not using any Helix amp or cab modeling; just FX, snapshots, routing, and channel changing on the Friedman. Plus sending the cab model direct out from the Friedman back to the Helix! Win-Win...

 

I'm using Helix with my Marshall so that I can still get a Wah, volume, Freq-Out, Strymon and Helix effects too. Helix is the great "Interface" for musicians!

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All I have left from the GLiDE Ming Dynasty is a couple of custom built/mod amps in the Fender circuit family that I used

to pump with pedals galore, and a handful of cabinets.  I haven't fired them up other than occasionally the last few years.

 

One is a 50 watter head with a tube rectifier...  the other is a totally gutted and point to point rebuilt Plush 3000G tube

monster.  That thing will melt paint off a 1968 Buick...

 

Dust collectors and museum pieces now...   :P

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A pro will hardly do without his tube amp on stage.

 

I am of course, just assuming he's a professional and I know he ain't the only one.

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I am of course, just assuming he's a proffessional and I know he ain't the only one.

lol. I love the emphatic "a pro would never" declarations. "I can't, won't, or don't...therefore nobody else could, would, or should". Awesome. Delusions must be fascinating...;)

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Haven't played through a Tube Amp (more than just noodling for my own entertainment) since the 80's.  

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 I think I found a good amp like solution.I bought the Seymour Duncan powerstage 170 and I have it going imto my blackstar 212 and so far I havent been using my frfr speakers as much. Its a pretty good unit sounds and I guess reacts like a tube amp and sounds great to me.I kind of wish I went this route from the begging and I could of saved some money.I have mackie thump for my frfr and I really like them but the powerstage did the trick.Actually it sounds really good when I use all of them I just wish I could crank it hahah I dont think the neighbors would like that.

post-800578-0-63448800-1510405425_thumb.jpg

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lol. I love the emphatic "a pro would never" declarations. "I can't, won't, or don't...therefore nobody else could, would, or should". Awesome. Delusions must be fascinating... ;)

 

And nobody coulda woulda or shoulda said it any better than that lol...  :P :lol:

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I sold all my amps and my pedals and went helix into L2T speakers. And I don't regret it all 😎

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Amongst others I have a 65 Amps Ventura and Divided by 13 CJ11 - along with my strymon / king of tone etc its the most amazing sound ever.

 

That's for my own personal pleasure in the man cave.

 

 

But for playing out in a band where nobody else notices or cares then it a Helix/Power engine 60/PA situation. Still very enjoyable but not the same

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Much like antique cars/motorcycles, I still enjoy my Fender/Matchless amps and sometimes find it useful to revisit their "character" to remind myself what's what.  But when it comes to gigging, Helix has reached a level of tone & feel coupled with convenience that simply makes my dear old amps obsolete, IMO.  

 

Few years ago I owned 1924 Ford Model T and while I loved the unique and educational experience, I certainly wouldn't want to drive it on a daily basis.  

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Just bought Bogner Goldfinger combo, ouch. Just to play sometimes with tubes and liked too much that 60's gain channel. Most playing with Helix and if something leaves house for band fun, it will be Helix.

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I’m close to 2 years in with my Helix and am now seriously ready to part with my tube, analog and various other digital gear. The Helix is all I ever turn on any more..

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Since I picked up a pair of Turbo Sound speakers, the tube amps sit under a bed sheet.  I'll keep my vintage stuff for now and start selling off the newer stuff, a couple of JVM's and VHT Pittbulls.  It's just a pain in the lollipop to sell amps.  I hate having to deal with people coming over to "try" them out.  Shipping is expensive.  I guess I can consign them someplace.  

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I had to sell off all my tube amps recently for life reasons (moving to an apartment in a new city, new baby). I've been using VST modeling for demos for years but hate being plugged into a computer to play. At first I was regretful, but since I picked up the Helix I haven't missed them at all, for home use anyways. Near unlimited tones in a light box that sounds good at any volume - my teenage self could only dream about something like this. if I ever end up performing live again like in my younger days I guess there would be quite a bit of adjusting to do but for recording and home use, modeling is basically all the way there.

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I'm trying to sell my modded Laney and my Mesa amp. That's how much I can testify to the quality of the Helix. It's been a huge leap from the sound I remember of my PodXt Live I had in college.

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I'm trying to sell my modded Laney and my Mesa amp. That's how much I can testify to the quality of the Helix. It's been a huge leap from the sound I remember of my PodXt Live I had in college.

I too had the PodXT Live and spent nearly the entire time tweaking it in a futile attempt to get it to sound and feel right. I haven’t edited anything on the Helix in 6 months. Not one darned thing.

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Thank you for helping in advance... my teenage sons are off to college and I need some help using my Helix to find and set up tube amp sounds (modeling?) Would someone be so kind to direct me or walk me through the process of how to do this. It would be most appreciated.  warmly, Dr. Rob

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Your mileage may vary, but I went from an all tube Hiwatt combo with pedals to a Helix LT with a full range powered monitor and have no regrets.  More options, more reliability in a smaller package.

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On 7/17/2017 at 9:55 AM, cgar18 said:

Did any of you get rid of your tube amps and just use the helix with pa monitor speakrs if so do you regret it? Thinking of trading my stuff for monitors and stand not sure,and are your monitors loud enough for small  mid size places?

Wow time flies. I found the best combo for me is the Seymour Duncan powerstage 170 with my blackstar 212 cabinet and I really like it alot. I sold my amps because i had to move but I probably wpuld have kept them because they were cool,but my helix does everything i need it to do.

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18 hours ago, DitaBahti said:

Thank you for helping in advance... my teenage sons are off to college and I need some help using my Helix to find and set up tube amp sounds (modeling?) Would someone be so kind to direct me or walk me through the process of how to do this. It would be most appreciated.  warmly, Dr. Rob

 

The Helix Owner's Manual tells you everything you need to know about how to do it.

 

https://line6.com/data/6/0a06439c975d5787c3e351aa0/application/pdf/Helix 2.0 Owners Manual - Rev D - English .pdf

 

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Great solid state amps (Quilter Tone Block 201 and others) got me off tube amps long before I got a Helix, unless you count the Vox MV50AC.

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