Can I just say . . .

[benlampard]

 . . . that I'm really enjoying Helix, and Helix Native.

 

I've spent a lot of time with them in the last few weeks and I think they're really excellent pieces of kit. I've definitely had my frustrations in the last year of ownership but I do feel like I'm getting great results now.

 

Little bit of positive feedback for L6 ;)

[Jlectka1]

Gotta ditto.  I went to a Helix LT and the digital rabbit hole about 6 weeks ago and find it amazing.  Totally having fun, learning a lot, and getting cool sounds.  The capabilities and quality of sounds from this box blows me away.  

[markdenman123]

Right on!!!

 

I have been loving my Helix Rack/Control system for over a year now.  It has proven to be an amazing asset onstage.  The routing options allowed me to create a rig almost identical to the rack rig I was running that had THREE GCX loop switchers and was MIDI controlled by a Ground Control Pro MIDI controller.  I had two trays of stomp boxes and two rack multi effects processors routing my various effects to the loop or front end of the amp.  It was an awesome system, but with all of that along with the amp head ALL in the same rack it was a bear to move.  The Helix took me to a place where everything is in a 4-space rack instead of a 12 space rolling rack.  If I didn't gig, that 12 space rack would have been fine - but I am playing out 4-6 times a month doing original gigs (30-50 min sets) where you have FAST change overs (6-10 minutes between bands).  That rack took two dudes to move on and off the stage.

 

I was able to recreate my previous rig (Rivera amp, effects, and cabs) in a matter of a couple days.  My band likes it better and sound guys are digging how easy it is to make a mix for the band.  We are essentially at a point where the only mics that need balancing are the drum kit, and overall level for the vocal mics.  We sound check quickly and efficiently these days.

 

I give it ALL to Helix, lol!!

[Gritch666]

What was your Rivera Markdenman? And how do you achieve to recreate his sound from the Helix?

[markdenman123]

What was your Rivera Markdenman? And how do you achieve to recreate his sound from the Helix?

 

Since 1990 I played the Rivera M/S amps.  I had an M60 head, an M100 head, an M100 combo, and I still have my S120.  All are EL34 versions (there are some out there with 6L6s).  I was a little panicked about getting the tone right but here's the overview (when I get home, I can give you specific settings if you want): 

 

Red Squeeze -> Obsessive Compulsive -> Essex 15 -> Spring Reverb -> Dual cab block (2x12 Silver Bell + 4x12 Greenback 20)

 

The thing about my particular Rivera amps was that the gain added compression more than over-the-top distortion.  Even on the gain channel I was able to play open chords that rang with note definition.  Each amp has a pentode/triode switch and a half power switch.  The pentode/triode works (I may have this wrong with my words, but I know the concept - Paul Sr and I discussed it in depth when I ordered the first amp) like this:

 

In Pentode, the amp uses five pins of the power tube - this sound is tighter with less power tube "saturation".  In Triode, the amps uses three pins of the power tube - this sound is more compressed and has more power tube saturation.  I forget the ratio, but it is part of the power scaling abilities of the amp.

 

The half power switch works in conjunction with pentode/triode to change the output level of the amp.  With the amp in Pentode, full power (based on the 100 watt amp) you would get 100 watts of output.  This sound is very tight with little compression, and is the "loudest".  Pentode, half power results in 50 watts of output.  This sound is still loud and tight, but you start to get some different feel based on slight power tube distortion.  With the amp in Triode, full power you are getting around 25 watts of output.  This sound is still loud, but the amp has very different output characteristics - much more "vintage" feel.  Triode, half power give 13 watts of output and the feel is based on a lot of power tube compression.  These different setting are not as perceptible at low Master Volume settings.  In fact, I called "BS" on it when I first got the amp and was trying those settings at bedroom level.  It doesn't "work" until you give significant volume - I was using these amps with the Master between 4-5 on the regular.  The sweetest spots seems to be the Master on 6-7.

 

I mention all this because when I explain how I copped my tone with Helix, it was ALL dependent on how I was running the Rivera.

 

Despite having amps of differing wattage, I ran them all the same.  I'd only move up or down in power depending on the venue - meaning if I was playing a really small room I'd bring the M60, etc.  The S120 (which is two separate 60 watt powers amps with a common preamp) could do any gig which is the reason it is the one I kept.  My Rivera settings are:

 

Gain Channel:

 

LO input used

 

(Rivera has what is called "Pick up Compensation" - this is DIFFERENT than other companies.  The LO input and HI input vary the amount of input gain and [i forgot how] work differently than typical HI/LO (1/2 jacks) on different amps.  It has something to do with varying the impedance level on the input...)

 

Volume:  8

Bass:  3 (pulled for gain boost)

Mids:  6.5

Treble:  4 (pulled for gain boost)

Master:  5

 

(the gain boosts add a little bit of drive and varying levels of compression)

 

Clean Channel:

 

My settings here are dependent upon the guitar and style of music.... 

 

AMP OUTPUT SECTION:

 

I found that the best way to get the tone I wanted was to always run the amp in triode.  Half or full-power was determined by the room and volume needed for the gig.  Toward the end of my using those amps live I was running the S120 (stereo 120 watts) like this:

 

Power Amp 1:

 

Triode/half power for an output level of 7.5 watts

 

Power Amp 2:

 

Triode/full power for an output level of 15 watts

 

The power amps were only engaged if a cabinet was plugged into it, otherwise that power amp was defeated.  Power Amp 2 can never be used without Power Amp 1.

 

Helix Discovery:

 

What made me decide to try the Essex 15 as a replacement for the Rivera required me to think about the tonal characteristics I was going for.  With me essentially running a 7.5 to 15 watt configuration that was LOUD, I went to a local guitar shop and tested tube amps in the 15 watt range.  I was looking for something that would break on the power stage, but also had a VERY specific mid-range characteristic.  The mids were KEY.  Here's why: 

 

The Rivera M/S series allows you to pick your midrange point on each channel.  Both channels allow to select either a 250K or 500K midrange point.  I found that an essential part of my tone was a 500K midrange point on my gain channel.  On the clean side it was always 250K (typical Fender Blackface voicing).

 

While I was demoing the various 15 watt combos, I found the Vox AC15 to give me a feel very close to what I liked in the Rivera.  I A/B'd my Rivera and the Vox to see how close I could get them (within reason considering the AC15 had a Greenback speaker and I use EVM12L speakers with my Rivera).  Ultimately it came down to a "feel" thing because I had played the Rivera live for about 25 years...I KNOW that amp, lol.  The AC15 was pretty much there.  I bought it.

 

At home I started working with the AC15 and a bunch of drive pedals to see where it needed to be to come close enough to the Rivera.  I found that the MXR DynaComp was CRUCIAL in getting the gain staging correct.  I used the DynaComp more as an extra drive stage rather than a compressor (though it still compresses enough).  That gave me a lot of the "girth" I was used to hearing with the Rivera.  From there I needed to find a neutral enough drive pedal (or so I thought).  I went through the dozen or so drives I have and didn't find anything "right".  Some of these drives include:

 

JHS Archer

Mad Professor Simble

Various MXR

RAT

some 80s Yamaha distortion box I used as a kid

Various DOD pedals from when I was a kid

TS9 Tube Screamer

Wampler Euphoria

 

I went to GC and asked a dude what was a popular drive pedal.  He mentioned OCD and showed me some Bogner stuff.  I tried them all out with an AC15 and found the OCD pleasing.  I bought it and continued my experiments.

 

Eventually I got a tone I was digging, even though it was "off".  I realized the reason pretty quickly.  The speaker broke up too quickly.  I was used to the EVM12L.  Satisfied overall, I returned the AC15 and OCD to GC (gotta love their return policy).  From there I knew where I wanted to go when I ordered my Helix.  I was happy to see that the main ingredients were in Helix.

 

Essentially I copied the AC15 rig I had bought (outlined above).  There was still ONE sticking point - finding a cab block or IR that would give me the response of my EVM12L cabs.  This created another unique issue.  While the speaker was odd enough, so were my cab choices.  I had ALWAYS used open-back cabs - 1x12, 2x12, 4x12.  The Rivera 1x12 and 2x12 were available open back.  But, I also used a custom half-back Rivera 4x12.  That cab was essentially a 4x12 version of the 2x12 - it had a half baffle on the bottom, but all the speakers could be seen (so not half sealed like Boogie 4x12s).

 

Long story trimmed down....

 

I started with factory cab blocks.  Worked my way through various 1x12 and 2x12 cabs.  Narrowed it down to the Silver Bell cab for overall sound (though it wasn't quite right on its own).  I messed with different mics as "EQ" to thicken the midrange.  I messed with various placements to "fine tune" the "EQ".  I added in varying amount of "early reflection" to "smooth out" the "EQ".  I got part way there.

 

Semi-satisfied, I realized I need more to the sound.  I added a second cab block and began looking for one that would compliment the Silver Bell and add in some stuff that was missing sonically compared to an open back cab running EVM12Ls (speaker config wasn't that important - it was ALL about achieving a certain midrange response).  I settled on the Greenback20 cab as the remainder of the "EQ".  After messing with some parameters, I ended up with a sound that was VERY similar to my Riveras and provided me with the proper feel and response that I was used to.

 

HAHAHA, probably more detailed than you wanted, but I figured it could be beneficial.....

[skyfirez1]

Just get an IR

[markdenman123]

None of the IRs of "EVM" speakers sound right.  After using them for 25 years, that was one of the first things I tried.  They are "ok" but still not "right".  I have a better/closer sound with what I am using now.

 

Thanks! 

[bsd512]

 

...

 

HAHAHA, probably more detailed than you wanted, but I figured it could be beneficial.....

 

I am more than impressed by your dedication and tenacity! :)

[skyfirez1]

Just try the Rosen IR's

[Gritch666]

Thx for your nice and elaborate answer. I own 3 Rivera, kr100 , kr55 and a ktrereverb. I know what you mean with all this power stage available, it's called modern/vintage instead of triode/pentode on the kr switch, but it's the same fonctionnement. Honestly, I'm more a Rock and metal guys, so I don't really mess with the vintage triode mode, I like my amp to be as tight and open as possible at the same time, and very transparent. I don't need more breakup and compression from the power stage. Not yet I guess.

 

The kr are such a nice amp, you can go from any fender clean tone to any old Marshall only with the first clean channel, with 3 frequency boost. Channel 2 go jcm800 to hotrod, channel 3 Mesa, a bit more modern distortion. But it always tight and transparent with an really nice string and pick definition. Adding gain kinda add more compression than gain too, you're better active the boost to achieve more gain. The issue I find with this design is that your sound will not really cleanup well when backing the volume or dropping the gain to get an other clean tone, but it's not a big deal. Channel 2 and 3 are not mean to be clean channel anyway. And the channel 1 is the best sounding clean channel from any amp, period. Yes it's that good. You can't dial a muddy tone, well almost. The active EQ go super deep, letting you achieve the tone you want in any situation, and the mid shift frequency, called scope for whatever reason, help a lot to get a more liquid lead tone. Unfortunately, you can't mid shift with a pedal board(midi command), so you can't really use this feature live cause it remove too much grind and power from your rythme. It just sound to weak vs non shifted mid. Top it with a build in independent boost for any channel, a nice and usable spring reverb, hi low input, power scale and midi capability, it's the best amp for any gig without bringing any pedal. Except if you want an muddy amp who hide your sloppy play.

 

So long short story, I don't know how I'll replace kr with my Helix... Still hoping one day l6 will clone the knucklehead reverb series. And I hope they will let us change the power tube section, it such a big deal 6l6vsEl34 in those amp (I'll try kt77 soon).

 

On an other note, the knucklehead tré reverb is kinda sound more like a distorted modern amp. The best way I can describe the tré, it's like a super orange rockerverb + + +. More gain on tap, more bass, more trebble, more mid, more everything. That thing have even more gain than a 5150. It sound a bit fizzy but not in the bad way. The note definition still unbelievable at any gain setting, so you still ear all your mistake. Also, a kinda strange and unique feeling I have about the tré is that I ear all my note on all the fretboard at the same volume level. It's kinda weird to play an ultra hight gain amp who feel super open and dynamic like that. And like the kr, the EQ let you tune almost any modern Rock metal tone. The natural voicing, everything at noon, is really dark and low heavy, don't be afraid to drop the bass and raise the trebble. Also, the clean channel is over the top too. Super duper clean, no breakup at all. But not has versatile has the kr.

 

All Rivera amp cut through the mix, but damn, they need so much master volume to sound right! You need to use them with a full band to understand all their potential. They are dull and sterile at bedroom level. Kinda an anti engl(those amp, well my fireball 100 suck so much in band, but is nice at lower volume and hide well my sloppy play)

[benlampard]

Right on!!!

 

I have been loving my Helix Rack/Control system for over a year now.  It has proven to be an amazing asset onstage.  The routing options allowed me to create a rig almost identical to the rack rig I was running that had THREE GCX loop switchers and was MIDI controlled by a Ground Control Pro MIDI controller.  I had two trays of stomp boxes and two rack multi effects processors routing my various effects to the loop or front end of the amp.  It was an awesome system, but with all of that along with the amp head ALL in the same rack it was a bear to move.  The Helix took me to a place where everything is in a 4-space rack instead of a 12 space rolling rack.  If I didn't gig, that 12 space rack would have been fine - but I am playing out 4-6 times a month doing original gigs (30-50 min sets) where you have FAST change overs (6-10 minutes between bands).  That rack took two dudes to move on and off the stage.

 

I was able to recreate my previous rig (Rivera amp, effects, and cabs) in a matter of a couple days.  My band likes it better and sound guys are digging how easy it is to make a mix for the band.  We are essentially at a point where the only mics that need balancing are the drum kit, and overall level for the vocal mics.  We sound check quickly and efficiently these days.

 

I give it ALL to Helix, lol!!

 

Good lord, I thought I had it bad! The other guitarist in my band has a looper and a HD500 mounted in a pedalboard the size of a coffin - it takes up half the stage in some of the places we play.

 

Also kudos on your exceptionally cheeky returns to GC.

[benlampard]

Just get an IR

 

What, not an optitrem at the end of the signal chain?  :D

[markdenman123]

Thx for your nice and elaborate answer. I own 3 Rivera, kr100 , kr55 and a ktrereverb. I know what you mean with all this power stage available, it's called modern/vintage instead of triode/pentode on the kr switch, but it's the same fonctionnement. Honestly, I'm more a Rock and metal guys, so I don't really mess with the vintage triode mode, I like my amp to be as tight and open as possible at the same time, and very transparent. I don't need more breakup and compression from the power stage. Not yet I guess.

 

The kr are such a nice amp, you can go from any fender clean tone to any old Marshall only with the first clean channel, with 3 frequency boost. Channel 2 go jcm800 to hotrod, channel 3 Mesa, a bit more modern distortion. But it always tight and transparent with an really nice string and pick definition. Adding gain kinda add more compression than gain too, you're better active the boost to achieve more gain. The issue I find with this design is that your sound will not really cleanup well when backing the volume or dropping the gain to get an other clean tone, but it's not a big deal. Channel 2 and 3 are not mean to be clean channel anyway. And the channel 1 is the best sounding clean channel from any amp, period. Yes it's that good. You can't dial a muddy tone, well almost. The active EQ go super deep, letting you achieve the tone you want in any situation, and the mid shift frequency, called scope for whatever reason, help a lot to get a more liquid lead tone. Unfortunately, you can't mid shift with a pedal board(midi command), so you can't really use this feature live cause it remove too much grind and power from your rythme. It just sound to weak vs non shifted mid. Top it with a build in independent boost for any channel, a nice and usable spring reverb, hi low input, power scale and midi capability, it's the best amp for any gig without bringing any pedal. Except if you want an muddy amp who hide your sloppy play.

 

So long short story, I don't know how I'll replace kr with my Helix... Still hoping one day l6 will clone the knucklehead reverb series. And I hope they will let us change the power tube section, it such a big deal 6l6vsEl34 in those amp (I'll try kt77 soon).

 

On an other note, the knucklehead tré reverb is kinda sound more like a distorted modern amp. The best way I can describe the tré, it's like a super orange rockerverb + + +. More gain on tap, more bass, more trebble, more mid, more everything. That thing have even more gain than a 5150. It sound a bit fizzy but not in the bad way. The note definition still unbelievable at any gain setting, so you still ear all your mistake. Also, a kinda strange and unique feeling I have about the tré is that I ear all my note on all the fretboard at the same volume level. It's kinda weird to play an ultra hight gain amp who feel super open and dynamic like that. And like the kr, the EQ let you tune almost any modern Rock metal tone. The natural voicing, everything at noon, is really dark and low heavy, don't be afraid to drop the bass and raise the trebble. Also, the clean channel is over the top too. Super duper clean, no breakup at all. But not has versatile has the kr.

 

All Rivera amp cut through the mix, but damn, they need so much master volume to sound right! You need to use them with a full band to understand all their potential. They are dull and sterile at bedroom level. Kinda an anti engl(those amp, well my fireball 100 suck so much in band, but is nice at lower volume and hide well my sloppy play)

 

Totally agree with you.  I had a KR100 for a while and it was TOO modern for me, lol.  I am very much a 70's-80's player so the M/S amps were perfect.  And, yes, the clean channel is AMAZING.  I grew up using Fender amp as my base sound, and having a "Fender" style clean was crucial for me.  The RIvera is the only high-gain (well, mine would be medium gain these days) amp with a PERFECT clean channel.

 

As far as getting a K-type tone, I couldn't say....MAYBE a dual amp block with a Recto and an Archon blended?  It has been so long since I had that KR that I kinda forgot what it sounded/responded like.  I know in my search to replicate the M/S, it was about finding the right midrange that gave me the girth I was to having.  Don't get me wrong, my Helix "RIvera" is NOT dead on to my S120 - it is just similar enough that I feel like I am playing the same rig (which was my ultimate goal with the Helix - replace all the analog and tube gear with a small package).

 

I would LOVE if L6 would model some Riveras (obviously the M/S in my case, lol) but I just don't think the amps are in demand enough.  Who knows?  I know those of us who play them a INSANELY loyal to the brand, but most people pass them over....probably because they have to be loud to sound right - or because they are unforgiving amps.

 

Don't give up, man - you be able to wrangle something close like I did.....

[markdenman123]

I am more than impressed by your dedication and tenacity! :)

 

Thanks man.  When I was considering the switch to Helix it was for convenience more than sound options.  I knew it would not have the Rivera amp or and open back cab with an EVM12L.  Problem was, and always has been, that I was LOVED the tone I already had.  Even take away all the effects, which are only there for special parts of certain songs we have, the sound of my guitar plugged straight into the amp, dry, was perfect.  The deal with my was that if I was going to buy a gadget like that (which at the time was really new and unproven, so to say) it would have to be something I would really use.  It couldn't be a "tinkers" toy.  Nobody had one in stock locally for me to try out so I kinda figured it out backwards, lol.  

[sleezye1]

 . . . that I'm really enjoying Helix, and Helix Native.

 

I've spent a lot of time with them in the last few weeks and I think they're really excellent pieces of kit. I've definitely had my frustrations in the last year of ownership but I do feel like I'm getting great results now.

 

Little bit of positive feedback for L6 ;)

I'm having a blast with Helix as well!

 

After 15+ years of a 4x12 rig with limited flexibility, having almost endless possibilities at my fingertips is intoxicating! I've spent many years fiddling with modelers in a vst setting so making the switch to helix has been somewhat familiar, it's just learning all these amps I've never used in person before that's the (fun) challenge

[Rloewenherz]

I only got my Helix recently and i love it already! Using it with an Alto TS210 and it sounds superb.

The Litigator Model is my favourite currently and i've been tweaking a preset based on it for a week now. All my other gear is sitting in the corner gathering dust now, the only exception being my self buit amps which i do fire up every now and then for some extra raw sound. :D

[markdenman123]

I only got my Helix recently and i love it already! Using it with an Alto TS210 and it sounds superb.

The Litigator Model is my favourite currently and i've been tweaking a preset based on it for a week now. All my other gear is sitting in the corner gathering dust now, the only exception being my self buit amps which i do fire up every now and then for some extra raw sound. :D

 

It's really cool how quick it is to find sonic joy with Helix.  Glad you're digging it.  I don't know anyone that regrets buying one.  That says a lot!

[zooey]

Long story trimmed down....

 

I started with factory cab blocks.  Worked my way through various 1x12 and 2x12 cabs.  Narrowed it down to the Silver Bell cab for overall sound (though it wasn't quite right on its own).  I messed with different mics as "EQ" to thicken the midrange.  I messed with various placements to "fine tune" the "EQ".  I added in varying amount of "early reflection" to "smooth out" the "EQ".  I got part way there.

 

Semi-satisfied, I realized I need more to the sound.  I added a second cab block and began looking for one that would compliment the Silver Bell and add in some stuff that was missing sonically compared to an open back cab running EVM12Ls (speaker config wasn't that important - it was ALL about achieving a certain midrange response).  I settled on the Greenback20 cab as the remainder of the "EQ".  After messing with some parameters, I ended up with a sound that was VERY similar to my Riveras and provided me with the proper feel and response that I was used to.

 

HAHAHA, probably more detailed than you wanted, but I figured it could be beneficial.....

Interesting saga there Mark. Would you consider putting that patch up on Custom Tone? Would love to check it out, sounds like I'd enjoy :)

[TLF2007]

 

Since 1990 I played the Rivera M/S amps.  I had an M60 head, an M100 head, an M100 combo, and I still have my S120.  All are EL34 versions (there are some out there with 6L6s).  I was a little panicked about getting the tone right but here's the overview (when I get home, I can give you specific settings if you want): 

 

Red Squeeze -> Obsessive Compulsive -> Essex 15 -> Spring Reverb -> Dual cab block (2x12 Silver Bell + 4x12 Greenback 20)

 

......

 

I thought this was a great comment/adventure on how you found your sound. Thanks for the offering such a detailed explanation. compelling process...

[jbuhajla]

Very cool that you went from actual hardware to verify, then set it up in Helix and it was there. 

[amsdenj]

HAHAHA, probably more detailed than you wanted, but I figured it could be beneficial.....

Excellent analysis, and a great story. I love the detail. Really like your approach to analyzing what your tone is, why and how to reproduce it with different configurations.

[markdenman123]

Thanks guys!!

 

I'll make a very generic "Rivera" patch and add it soon.  I'll let you kow when I do....

[skyfirez1]

What, not an optitrem at the end of the signal chain?  :D

 

did you try it yet?