can't figure out hard panning of guitars

[fr0sty]

I'm normally use podfarm for recording  and I have no problems hard panning guitars left and right.  I can do so with either with a single or dual amp patch.  Not so much with helix. Everything I've tried seems to have guitars right up the middle, even though after recording I pan each individual track hard left and hard right. 

 

Can anyone point me to the relevant section of the manual to explain?  

[kylotan]

Normally the panning is something you handle in your DAW, on the track you've recorded onto. The software or hardware you use for the performance doesn't matter. What DAW are you using?

[Triryche]

Do you have a stereo effect that is not coming out stereo?

If so, you likely have a mono effect after the stereo effect which will mono sum everything.

[fr0sty]

Here are screen shots with podfarm and native.  I have one clip, hard panned left.  Each vst is set with a signle, amp only patch. Podfarm passes the panning as expceted, while native creates a stereo output signal.  

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vPOe0tzrC4Xduz0q1

[reginaldStjohn]

By adding the amp in Helix anything that comes into it will be summed to mono. Therefore, when it comes out of the Amp in Helix it will be in both channels.  You either need to make your DAW pan after Helix, which would be the preferred way.  Or pan the output of Helix the way you want it.

 

From the looks of it POD Farm is not summing to mono to go through the amp and so it preserves the stereo signal. Helix does not do this.

[fr0sty]

If I could ask any of you fine folks that use helix native to record for a little help.  Are you able to record two dry guitars tracks in your daw, run them through a single instance of helix native, pan those two clips hard left/right  and have them sound panned when playing back?

 

I'm kind of pulling my hair out trying to get this working for me in fl.  Right now the only way I figure out how to do what I want is to have helix native running on two channels, pan each of those channels left/right, then route one dry guitar track to one channel and one to the other.

[Triryche]

Do you have one stereo track with two mono takes one left and one right?

[fr0sty]

I record individual mono tracks on a dry channel and then route them through the channel that has helix native  after recording.  The key with podfarm is the mixer section where there is a left/right pan knob for each side. Panning that allows me to pan any track routed through podfarm.  Helix native has a single pan control on the host output. I can pan that way, but then all clips running through native are panned the same direction. The helix manual shows some other daws that allow for a mono input with a stereo output (rather than summed mono) which seems like that may be the ticket, but  I don't think fl offer that's. I'll check on their help forum as well.

 

In any case I've even made dual channel patches and then hard panned the output for each of those channels in native, but the results are the same.  Multiple mono audio clips can't but panned differently in fl studio using helix native.

 

 

 

[Triryche]

 

In any case I've even made dual channel patches and then hard panned the output for each of those channels in native, but the results are the same.  Multiple mono audio clips can't but panned differently in fl studio using helix native.

 

 

 

Can you post a snapshot of that ? 

[fr0sty]

Some good news. I was able to get a dual amp patch to work. Not sure what I did wrong the first time, but now I can record individual mono tracks, run them through helix and as long as I have the host outputs panned in helix, the audio comes through as expected.  

 

Now if I can just figure out a way to do the same on a single amp patch.

Can you post a snapshot of that ? 

[fr0sty]

As the world turns.  I figured out why I though the dual amp patch wasn't panning guitars and it's because helix splits everu track left/right to both amp patches.  It sounded stereo and it was, but each of the two mono tracks sent to helix are split left and right. If I mute one track I still hear guitar out of both speaker, although they are running the different amps I have set, hard panned left/right.

The screen shot shows two recorded audio clips, with one muted.  Audio clip 1 is panned hard left and routed to mixer track one.  Normally I would route the audio clip into mixer track 2 where helix is, but I put it on 1 and the routed 1 to 2 so you can see the VU meters.  As you can see, the helix output VU meters show audio in both output channels, even though the helix input shows audio in the left side only.

 

 

This screen shot 2 is the same thing, but with the amp sim turned off.  I get the same behavior if I disabledhelix native plugin in the effects rack on the far right.  Once the amp sim is disabled, my audio signal now only plays through the left channel as expected.

 

The only way I can get multiple guitar tracks to pan l/r with FL studio is to run multiple instances on helix native on different mixer tracks, then pan those track. Not exactly what I'm trying to do here.  It's also been suggested to use a stereo input when I record, which I can do but the guitar signal from my audio interface only comes out of one channel (no big surprise).  

 

Here's a link to the full version of FL (demo).  I'd really appreciate it if someone else could try and see if I'm right, wrong or confused! :)

 

https://www.image-line.com/downloads/flstudiodownload.html

 

[Triryche]

If you have the 2nd path set to host you are actually doubling the level going into Helix Native, not necessarily a bad thing, but typically not the optimal starting point.

Check out Discrete Stereo Processing with Amps on page 25 of the manual, I think that is what you are trying to achieve.

You sort of have to erase PF mentality when working in Helix Native's routing, options are awesome. Also check out some of the templates for new ideas for building patches.

[fr0sty]

Thanks, I'll give that a try tonight!

[fr0sty]

Well it worked, but with extra steps.  I used the DiscreteDuo template in templates/other, recorded my two mono tracks, then routed them to channel 3 where helix is.  The tracks were still panned up the middle, even when I set the audio clips themselves to be panned. Next I routed the first guitar clip to channel 4, the second clip to channel five and then routed them both to channel three where helix was.  Finally, both clips were hard panned.  Good lord that's  round about way to get where I was going.

 

From what I read in the manual, helix can only do stereo panning with stereo inputs. 

[Triryche]

Glad you got it sorted!!

Haven't really used FL Studio, but I guess I was thinking when you routed your tracks to channel 3 that channel 3 was essentially stereo. 

[Lachdanan0121]

I do it differently in FL.  (amps and mono fx sum to mono in Helix Native, so stereo FX only matter after these)

 

If I want left + right guitars:

I set up mixer channel for Left Guitar.  On this I put Helix native, which will output a stereo signal. I put on Stereo Shaper right after it, and kill the right channel. NOT PAN!  

Then for my Right guitar, I setup a mixer channel for Right Guitar, put in Helix native, (outputting a stereo signal) I put on Stereo Shaper right after it, and kill the left channel. NOT PAN! 

I have both Left Guitar, and Right Guitar mixer channels "unrouted" from master, and routed to Guitar L+R submix. This is where I do stuff like Reverb,  Delay, and stereo separation, and this is the mixer channel that is routed to master. 

 

I have had much better luck this way than trying to pan L+R guitars. I have been using FL Studio for a long time, it is a fantastic DAW. Stereo Shaper is a free FX plugin within it.

Multiple instances don't hurt much considering its not all that CPU heavy, and you have 100 mixer channels these days. 

[fr0sty]

I'll give that a try tonight, thanks!  Any reason to not just pan the mixer strip you setup for each of the left/right guitars, unroute them from the master, then route to another mix for stereo effects?  I've only fiddled with the stereo shaper a little but, so I'm not sure what it brings to the table vs just panning each mixer strip as needed.

 

I do it differently in FL.  (amps and mono fx sum to mono in Helix Native, so stereo FX only matter after these)

 

If I want left + right guitars:

I set up mixer channel for Left Guitar.  On this I put Helix native, which will output a stereo signal. I put on Stereo Shaper right after it, and kill the right channel. NOT PAN!  

Then for my Right guitar, I setup a mixer channel for Right Guitar, put in Helix native, (outputting a stereo signal) I put on Stereo Shaper right after it, and kill the left channel. NOT PAN! 

I have both Left Guitar, and Right Guitar mixer channels "unrouted" from master, and routed to Guitar L+R submix. This is where I do stuff like Reverb,  Delay, and stereo separation, and this is the mixer channel that is routed to master. 

 

I have had much better luck this way than trying to pan L+R guitars. I have been using FL Studio for a long time, it is a fantastic DAW. Stereo Shaper is a free FX plugin within it.

Multiple instances don't hurt much considering its not all that CPU heavy, and you have 100 mixer channels these days. 

[Lachdanan0121]

"Panning" pans the entire sound left or right. I prefer to have that be a touch I add at the end. I do that on the L+R submix channel with the stereo separation knob.

 

The method I mentioned above doesn't (hard-pan L+R) until that stereo separation knob on the L+R submix channel, and that is on a case by case basis, sometimes a lot, sometimes I leave the knob alone because it is still a independent L, and R guitar.

 

The difference is the above method just removes the right channel audio from the (intended left guitar), and vice versa. When they meet in the submix you have fully independent L+R signal. I have found it to be quite easy to setup, and actually give me a more stable results.  I don't want super hard panned audio going into the mixer channel that I intend to have a lot of stereo processing going on like Reverb, or Delay. I prefer to have it coming out of that channel. I get better sounding results this way, its like a bit more control over your processing chain.

[zmejus]

So, is it possible to put 2 independent guitars in one Helix instance and one signal chain (eg no 2 amps). It's too time consuming to adjust effects parameters for 2 chains eg in metal music, where both guitars 90% of the time sound the same.

[rnodern]

I've had this issue too. There are too many options for it's own good. 

I'd have Helix sitting on a guitar bus track, and route my hard panned L & R tracks to it. Pod farm does this with ease, but Helix picks up the hard panned signals, and centers them. So i have my hard panned L&R tracks centered. I found the culprit was in the effects chain. There are multiple types of the same pedals. You need to make sure that you use MONO effects in your chain, otherwise you get this issue. 

[fr0sty]

I'm glad it's not just me. I've found it easier to just run native on multiple channels vs all the convoluted routing needed to do simple track panning on  a single channel.  That basic function was easy peasy to do in podfarm... 

 

I've had this issue too. There are too many options for it's own good. 

I'd have Helix sitting on a guitar bus track, and route my hard panned L & R tracks to it. Pod farm does this with ease, but Helix picks up the hard panned signals, and centers them. So i have my hard panned L&R tracks centered. I found the culprit was in the effects chain. There are multiple types of the same pedals. You need to make sure that you use MONO effects in your chain, otherwise you get this issue. 

[Lachdanan0121]

I think Soundog may have posted what you are looking to do.

 

I don't know why I remembered your thread when I saw it, but I did.

Here is the link.

http://line6.com/support/topic/32305-panning-your-hxn-guitar-within-a-stereo-track/

[loutowart]

Im a little late to the party but I am trying to use Helix Native in exactly the same way and im having trouble. Has anyone found "The Way" to do this yet?

[aaron__aardvark]

You can't just do panning in your DAW?  This is easy to do in Cubase.  You're probably not going to get what you want by trying to pan only using Helix Native....I guess you could use the Pan model in Helix Native, but doing that in your DAW would probably be easier.

[soundog]

Aardvark .... yes you can pan in any DAW. But if you play around with stereo and mono inputs into Native, and panning the resulting signal ... you will find that it's not all straightforward and as expected. It's so cosmic I won't even attempt to explain it. As mentioned here, this thread is useful if you are trying to pan a guitar within the stereo effects field created in Native:

http://line6.com/support/topic/32305-panning-your-hxn-guitar-within-a-stereo-track/

 

Another method to experiment with is to use Helix Native as a mono guitar processor (amp and cabinet only), then bus the mono output to stereo effects, either using Native or other plug-ins. There are other ways, of course...but it usually does take some experimentation to get what you want during a stereo mix.

 

[regnipuknu]

Do you have one stereo track with two mono takes one left and one right?

[aaron__aardvark]

soundog,

I was trying to help loutowart, though thank you.  I'll check out the link, see what I might learn.

[loutowart]

Im trying to use Helix Native as a Stereo Bus Effect. Example: I have 2 rhythm guitar tracks that i want to pan hard left and hard right. In Ableton Live I "group" these tracks into a Stereo Bus so i can control their overall volume with one fader. If i were to use POD farm at this stage, id drop it onto the Bus ive created and and both guitar tracks would be processed, in stereo, with one instance of POD Farm with a single signal chain running in it. With Helix this does not happen, at least not automatically like POD farm. Im trying to get around using multiple instances of Helix for 2 tones that will be the same. 

[loutowart]

The best ive come up with is this config

it relies on the "split block" and the panning controls associated with them.

I want to do this but without running 2 signal chains if possible, eg. controlling one amp model affects both guitar tracks, in stereo.

This at least knocks it down to one instance of Helix

[aaron__aardvark]

loutowart,

Interesting.  I haven't spent much time pursuing it, though I don't even know how to do the split thing (don't bother explaining unless you can do it quickly).  I record separate guitar tracks for double-tracking, but I know what you're doing is a bit different.

[soundog]

Try this (assuming you're feeding a stereo instance of Native with either a dual guitar track with guitars panned hard L and R, or using two mono tracks into a stereo bus panned accordingly).

 

Use a Split Y to keep the guitars panned hard L and R onto path A and B. Then put whatever amp/cab you want on Path A after the split, and same for Path B. Then put a Mixer right after the amps to rejoin them on Path A, with the same hard pan L an R. The add any stereo effects you want to your new stereo path. See screen shots here for Split Y and Mixer settings (whoops, Mixer A Pan should be 100, not 98). Let me know if that works for you.

 

 

 

 

[aaron__aardvark]

soundog,

Thank you for posting.  Will probably check into this when I have more time.

[Papanate]

On 3/30/2020 at 5:59 PM, soundog said:

Try this (assuming you're feeding a stereo instance of Native with either a dual guitar track with guitars panned hard L and R, or using two mono tracks into a stereo bus panned accordingly).

 

Use a Split Y to keep the guitars panned hard L and R onto path A and B. Then put whatever amp/cab you want on Path A after the split, and same for Path B. Then put a Mixer right after the amps to rejoin them on Path A, with the same hard pan L an R. The add any stereo effects you want to your new stereo path. See screen shots here for Split Y and Mixer settings (whoops, Mixer A Pan should be 100, not 98). Let me know if that works for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That seems awfully convoluted - I'm not a pro at Helix Native - but wouldn't splitting Input 1 off to Input two work much better? Then Input one goes out left and Input 2 goes out right. 

Then in the DAW just pan input one hard left and input 2 hard right.  Perhaps I'm not understanding the process here. 

 

[neilwilkes]

There is a seriously easy way to do this in Cubase/Nuendo.

If you need a dry signal down one side and the amp down another, simply change the plugin from default stereo to mono in the Cubase routing controls (where it is saying "stereo" in a sort of blue button - I would post a screenshot but amm exporting a mixdown right now so cannot access it), and then open the routing editor to select what side - left or right - you need Helix to be operating on.

Job Done, and no messing with Y-Splits or any of that as you are guaranteed a mono signal path.