Helix Native For Live Use - My Setup

[eigensatz]

Hi Guys

 

I wanted to share with you my my setup for using Helix Native as a live rig (band practice and gigging). This is my first post in this forum and the reason I wrote it, is because firstly I wanted to share my experiences with this new adventure and secondly maybe get in touch with other people who are thinking about going down the same road. I will first quickly say a few words about why I decided to try to make this work and then present my (current) setup. A quick spoiler: While I am not in any way claiming that my solution is the perfect one or my decisions were particularly smart (and I am happy for any kind of input and feedback) I am absolutely loving what I have achieved so far... Being so happy is in fact one of the main reasons why I am writing this, because maybe it makes some of you happy as well :)

 

Background

 

Some background because some people might wonder why I am even doing this (and not just buy a Helix hardware unit for example). You can skip this and directly check out my setup below, if you are not interested :)

 

My L6 amp modeling journey has started around 2000 with POD2.0 and I have had numerous setups over time, going through tube amps and also trying direct into PA. For a very long time I was not happy with the sound of the direct PA solution and so I settled with running my PODs into Fender Amps. There I was very happy with the tone, even though there was always a Fender colour in it. I pretty much stuck to this solution until and including PODX3Live. When POD HD came out, I was intrigued by the solution of running it into the Line6 DT25 hybrid amp because it seemed the perfect combo of modeled pre-amps and tube power amp with adapting analogue circuitry. Unfortunately, this was somehow the setup I was the least happy with tone-wise. I don't know whether my expectations just grew over time or whether I was not tuning in the patches correctly but I have spent hours and hours reading forum entries, tutorials, the MeAmBobbo PodHD Guide (what an awesome guide!), etc. and still something always felt just a tiny bit off when I played. I somehow got used to it over the years, but there was always this itch in the back of my head leaving me slightly unsatisfied. I could go on a long time to try to explain my current understanding of what was wrong, but this would be a different post. Let's just say, I believe now that the true "ultimate" setup with Amp Modeling can only be going out directly to a PA. Anything else will always somehow compromise the vision of dialling in totally different amps, cabs and microphones. My problem so far was, that I never liked to tone of going direct to PA from a Modeller. UNTIL NOW .. what a dramatic story :)

 

I do not want to convince anyone here, or say that this will be true for other people, but for my ears, the helix is the first Modeller I run into the PA and immediately fell in love with. It felt so responsive, so deep, so diverse, so limitless... I knew that the time has come for me to ditch the tubes. So I started to look into options and right about that time I heard, that Helix Native is coming. While I was sceptical I was also very intrigued. This has been my absolute dream ever since I first laid my eyes on a POD: Just bring my computer and have the same sound anywhere I like, total flexibility, get rid of all this analogue machinery (except for the guitar) and free myself in the digital world. I know, I know... it will never be exactly the same sound... But still, it was my dream.

 

To give you some less irrational reasons, here is:

 

My Motivation: Why is using Helix Native live so great for me?

 

I am totally aware that this setup will not be for everyone, so after this long and boring story, here in short my reasons of why I will not look back:

 

- Modularity: I am a fan of having a modular system. The amp modeller is one module (could be split up as well, do not see any reason currently, but with my digital setup, I could combine it with other amp modellers or effect plugins). Other modules are the foot controller, the computer that runs the modeller, the audio interface... I like the following things about modularity: I am able to exchange the modules, if better options exist or something breaks. Depending on where I play I might not need all the modules (e.g. foot controller). I have more flexibility and control over the modules, for example, I can freely configure the foot controller to also control other elements in my setup (e.g. Mobius Looper).

- Size: As a direct consequence of modularity, I can leave the Floor-Board in my practice room and all I need to carry is the laptop, which I usually carry anyway, and the audio interface, if I don't have one in the practice room.

- Cost: I already have a good laptop and an audio interface, so... Also, if a better Helix Native will come out (or whatever the name will be), I will only have to pay upgrade costs for that part of my setup.

- Extensibility: Since the Helix will run in a VST Host I get limitless possibilities to further combine it with other Processing effects.

- Dependability: I know this is a matter of taste but I hugely prefer to make digital backups of my Laptop (which I do anyway) and bring a second laptop and audio interface for my gig (which I can borrow from a friend) than needing to constantly sync and backup my Helix hardware unit and organise two Helix units for a gig. If I have one Helix Unit and if it fails, I am out of options. If it gets stolen or I loose it, I will have to buy a new one (The same is true for the laptop, but the laptop is in a similar price range but does so much more). With Helix Native, I have more options to setup a more redundant and fail-safe system. I will only need to replace the module that failed.

 

I know that this does not come for free. There are more cables - common, it's not that bad :) Modularity also means that for each module you have tons of options and it will take time to read into these options and make decisions and set them up. But for me personally, it was totally worth it. And maybe the next section will save some time for others who dream of the same advantages like me. So finally:

 

My Setup

 

Guitar: well, not relevant here but I play a Godin Montreal and I love it ;)

 

Audio Interface: I have a RME Babyface Pro, which supposedly provides great quality at a reasonable price and to my ears it sounds great through the PA system. The instrument input impedance is slightly lower than normal for guitar amps or effects but I cannot hear any problem and plugin in guitars is one officially mentioned application scenario for the Babyface Pro so I trust that the RME guys know what they are doing. I also really like the software mixer that comes with the Babyface Pro. As with the Helix hardware units (discussed at length in many forums) listening to your guitar through headphones is a thing one has to get used to. It will never sound the same as listening to your sound through a high power PA system. But I read a lot about this and by now I am pretty convinced that this is just the way it is and there is nothing you can do about it. Headphones are not high powered amps + loudspeakers in a room. If you plan on practicing a lot with headphones, get decent headphones (there are other threads on this topic) but be aware that it will never sound the same as through a PA.

 

PC: I have a Mac Book Pro with El Capitan from 2010 (quite old) and no problems so far. You can read a lot that SSD Disks are important but I don't really get why? This is definitely true for recording, since there, you save your audio to the disk and the disk is one of the slowest things on your computer. But for live use, I think RAM and Processor speed are way more important. I don't have a SSD and I only have 4GB RAM and so far no problems. I have never looked into this but I think, if you buy a decent laptop today, it will have more performance than the helix units anyway, so this should not be a limiting factor.

 

VST Host: I have evaluated various options and I have found that for my application the Live Professor by audioström is by far the best VST Host. It provides exactly what I need but nothing more. It is easy to learn and has a nice user interface. The most important thing that it brings to the table that some others don't, is that you can safe the entire Helix Native plugin state as a "snapshot" in Live Professor itself. This is crucial currently because Helix Native does (at the point of this writing) not support snapshots or preset changes through MIDI or automation. That means that in Live Professor, I only have one Helix Live instance with one preset active. Once I configured that preset with Amps and effects to my liking, I safe this current state as a snapshot in Live Professor. Live Professor lets me switch between these snapshots seamlessly and I can create Setlists for my concerts that correctly activate the snapshots I need for each song. This in turn can then be mapped to MIDI controls so I can use my MIDI floorboard to switch through my snapshots, each snapshot corresponding to a different amp and effects configuration in Helix Native. You can also map MIDI controls to turn Effects in Helix Native on and off or to control Knobs of Amps etc. Live Professor even supports VST3 and it runs both on Mac and PC, another big plus for me, which should not surprise you since I like to stay flexible. If I ever feel like switching from Mac to PC, I don't want to switch my entire setup.

 

Other Effects: I do a lot of live looping and now I can use the Mobius Looper. I use the standalone version because unfortunately for now, Mobius has still only a 32bit version. This works for me, I simply use the RME Mixer to loopback the output signal of Live Professor back into Mobius and do the looping at the end of the signal chain, which is where I want to have it anyways. If you are interested in live looping, do check out Mobius it is absolutely awesome and offers more than any hardware looper unit I know. Again, another great advantage of using a Laptop and a modular setup.

 

Floorboard: I use the classical Behringer FCB1010 to control the Setlist in Live Professor, the volume in Helix Native and the track volumes and controls of the Mobius looper. Maybe I will add another expression pedal or even another midi board in the future to have even more control options, but for now I am already super happy with this setup. Especially the looper is a big step up from the limited looping options and controller freedom I had with the looper that was built into my PodHD.

 

PA: We have a Yamaha PA in our practice room and I don't even know the exact type but I don't think that it is a particularly expensive one. I truly think that this is one of the advantages of Amp modelling becoming better and better and it will get less and less important of which particular PA system you use as long as it has a decent FRFR. You can fine-tune the sound by EQing for the particular PA and room, but the general sound and feel that I heard so far was always pleasing me. As I said above, this was not the case in the early years of Amp modelling and I think we have definitely transitioned into a time, where tube amps will fade out, as analogue cameras have faded out the last couple of years. At least for me, I think I will never switch back to hardware units and amps from here on out.

 

This was it, thanks for reading. I am curious whether someone even cares but as I said: I was so happy about my new setup that I simply had to write this down. And if someone gets inspired to try a similar setup or shares some thought about his own setup, even better.

 

 

 

 

[jabak]

Good stuff. Very interesting to read even for a home studio hobbyguitarist that never plays live or anything remotely like that. 

 

I think you (maybe) will be pleasantly surprised by how many comments, questions and suggestions you will get from folks in this forum. 

 

Best of luck with your setup.

[mgamache]

I have considered a similar setup because I don't want to transport both by VoiceLive 3 *and* HD500x (soon to be Helix). I've been using just the VoiceLive 3 (with pedals) for now. The possibilities are interesting. Imagine processing your guitar using Helix for Pedal FX, BaisFX Desktop for the amp models and Waves plugins for reverb/compression etc... 

 

One note about SSD drives: Yes they are faster, but in this case the increased reliability is a bonus. They don't have any moving parts like magnetic drives do. 

[soundog]

Thanks for sharing your experience, @eigensatz. I was curious about latency when playing though this setup. Are you aware of any bothersome or audible delay between when you play notes on your guitar and hear them from your PA? What buffer size setting are you using in Live Professor?

[eigensatz]

So a couple of more weeks with this setup and I am still happy :)

 

The only problem I encountered so far is that there seems to be a bug either in Live Professor or in Helix that makes the mapping of MIDI to the Helix Switches (to turn on/off effects for example) not 100% reliable. I don't need that right now because I store everything in snapshots in Life Professor and switching through these Snapshots with MIDI from my FCB1010 works perfectly. I just wanted to let you know in case someone is planing on using this functionality. I have reported this to the Life Professor forum and the developer there is a super nice guy and he said he will look into this. For me this is really a non-issue currently so I am still sold on the Life Professor because everything else works nicely.

 

@mgamache: You are absolutely right about the SSD thing. I guess my advise would be: if you buy a new Laptop, get one with an SSD. If you already got one and it only has an HD, this will not be a deal breaker for Helix.

 

@soundog: I have read a bit about latency and buffer sizes and I read that at around 4ms latency most humans cannot detect the latency anymore. For most people this threshold is even higher, 10ms or more, I guess it depends on various factors. When playing live there is always some latency due to the speed of sound and many instruments, like the piano for example, have some built in latency in the instrument itself. So small amounts of latency is not an issue for live music and fortunately computers have become fast enough that audio processing can be done with really low buffer sizes nowadays. I have set mine to 192 samples at 44kHz and I cannot notice any delay while I am playing. One day I will spend a little bit more time on this issue because I never really tried out several sample sizes to see where it really becomes noticeable to me. Ideally I think you best choose the maximum buffer size where you don't notice any delay yourself. Note that the audio interface itself will also add some latency with the AD conversion so it makes sense to buy a good one for live use. I read reviews saying that the RME products have among the lowest latencies in the market so that is one reason why I went for the babyface pro.

[maneco]

thanks

eigensatz ,this post is a treasure of information and great experience, i'm following ll your advice regarding host, checking Live Professor right now

Thanks again!

[zolko60]

 The most important thing that it brings to the table that some others don't, is that you can safe the entire Helix Native plugin state as a "snapshot" in Live Professor itself. This is crucial currently because Helix Native does (at the point of this writing) not support snapshots or preset changes through MIDI or automation. That means that in Live Professor, I only have one Helix Live instance with one preset active. Once I configured that preset with Amps and effects to my liking, I safe this current state as a snapshot in Live Professor. Live Professor lets me switch between these snapshots seamlessly and I can create Setlists for my concerts that correctly activate the snapshots I need for each song. This in turn can then be mapped to MIDI controls so I can use my MIDI floorboard to switch through my snapshots, each snapshot corresponding to a different amp and effects configuration in Helix Native.  Live Professor lets me switch between these snapshots seamlessly and I can create Setlists for my concerts that correctly activate the snapshots I need for each song. This in turn can then be mapped to MIDI controls so I can use my MIDI floorboard to switch through my snapshots, each snapshot corresponding to a different amp and effects configuration in Helix Native. You can also map MIDI controls to turn Effects in Helix Native on and off or to control Knobs of Amps etc. on and off or to control Knobs of Amps etc. 

Thank you you have shared good news. I did similar setup. but I don't know how to make "automation handles" from Helix Native be MIDI controlled. Where exactly do you assign those automation handles? For example in Helix Native you assign "distortion bypass" to "switch 1". Where can I find that "switch 1" in Live Professor and map it to MIDI CC?

[klarkkentster]

I'm going to be using Helix Native live as well.  Right out of the box (Download) it sounds amazing through the PA.  I use Ableton in my set up and for the life of me I can't figure out automation to change the presets.  Fortunately the download was made available today for snapshots...which can help.... But really need the ability to automate patch changes.  Any thoughts ?

[zolko60]

I don't think Preset Change is possible using automation.
Back to Live Professor 2. My reality is not so cool. There is a menu "Controllers". In "Edit Controllers" you define your florboard midi device, and if you have Helix Native loaded, in "Map controllers" you assign HxN switches and knobs to switches and knobs of your controller. Sounds like success but...
...it works pretty crappy. A lot of cotroller data is "lost in translation" somehow. I did it to chek HxN wahs. It does's not work fluently. There are about 100-200ms ms lag. Disabling not used midi devices helps a little but still 10-20% of data is lost..
I have done this evaluation on 5 years old laptop with 3rd gen 2 core i5 2,4GHz CPU and 16GB RAM. Using HxN LP2 shows 30% of CPU Load at 64 samples buffer on NI Komplete Audio 6 interface (which gives about 10ms Round Trip Latency) - so I don't think the problem is hardware related. LP2 handles audio very stable but for some reason after couple of minutes of work meters refresh slow down and contolling lag increases.
Still evaluating but I don't think this "Rig" is giving any promise.

[klarkkentster]

They launched the download to allow snap shots.... and I can automate changing snapshots.... so i think that will work in the interim.

[zolko60]

I haven't tried yet. But guess what - when LP2 gave me 30% CPU Load and crappy midi controll, Reaper has 5% and midi controll over HxN is just working perfect.

[soundog]

Reaper is giving a lot of established DAWS a run for their money. Its pretty amazing how far its come, and how efficient the app is.

[zolko60]

Yeah. If it's so good you can even forget it is DAW not VST Host. In case somebody finds some reliable host as efficient as Reaper please let the forum know.
HxN snapshots do not resolve problem of changing presets, do they? LP2 snapshots were good workaround.

[klarkkentster]

Anyone have any issues with having HN stop working all of sudden..... It happens when I'm not on the internet. I log in inside the DAW to the Line 6 servers and it's back up and running.   It's happened twice during rehearsal and praying it doesn't happen during church tomorrow. 

 

 

 

Any idea how to prevent it ?    I purchased it and wondering why I need to log in to the server daily to prove it's registered to me.  

[DGillespie]

They launched the download to allow snap shots.... and I can automate changing snapshots.... so i think that will work in the interim.

I've just started using HxN with Ableton hosting the plugin and I'm really happy with the rig for my remote setup. (I have a Helix floorboard that I use when I'm home or performing - but I spend most of my time 1000 kms away). I started using Ableton because the Focusrite interface I got for Christmas had 'free' downloads and tools for both it and Protools First (I couldn't get HxN to work with Protools so I'm giving Ableton a shot). I've been able to control the HxN plugin almost flawlessly using an old FBV Shortboard Mark II I had doing nothing (I've been running Line 6 stuff since POD V1.0) and everything works great except changing presets...

 

So... what version of Ableton supports snapshots with automation capabilities? The 'free' version that came with Focusrite is 'Live 9 Lite' - I suspect this feature is not supported but wondered what you are using.

 

Thanks

[zolko60]

Snaphot automation should be common for DAW's and VST hosts supporting "translating" MIDI commands to plugin automation.
If you know how to map and assign Midi Control Changes to HxN "switches" and "knobs" you will know how to assign "Snapshot indexes". While HxN switches have only two values (off=0, on=127), snaphot indexes have 8 (0-15, 15-31... 111-127). Using only one Midi Toggle Switch (which gives Control Change of 0 or 127) you will change between 1st and 8th snapshot. This alone gives pretty powerful possibilities. For example you can (with one tap) change amp and cab and "block" of stompboxes leaving all but one florboard switches for separate stomps. Usually in live situation two switchable complete rigs are just overkill ;) Of course if you play in cover band and Andy Summers and Eddie Van Halen rigs are not enough because you need also Hammet and Santana rigs, you have to change program (preset) somehow :D
One feature I miss using two (or more) snapshots is I can not control wah and pitch pedal with one expression pedal becasuse they can have only only one assignment :(
This is a tutorial how to make MIDI controllers work for plugins in Reaper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGDsNhodc7Q

[klarkkentster]

I have Ableton Suite.  

 

Automation of snapshots should be supported by all version of Ableton. (I believe)  

 

I had to re-download the latest version 1.5 I believe to see the snapshots.   If needed I can do a quick video on automating stuff if needed for ya.  

[klarkkentster]

Snaphot automation should be common for DAW's and VST hosts supporting "translating" MIDI commands to plugin automation.

If you know how to map and assign Midi Control Changes to HxN "switches" and "knobs" you will know how to assign "Snapshot indexes". While HxN switches have only two values (off=0, on=127), snaphot indexes have 8 (0-15, 15-31... 111-127). Using only one Midi Toggle Switch (which gives Control Change of 0 or 127) you will change between 1st and 8th snapshot. This alone gives pretty powerful possibilities. For example you can (with one tap) change amp and cab and "block" of stompboxes leaving all but one florboard switches for separate stomps. Usually in live situation two switchable complete rigs are just overkill ;) Of course if you play in cover band and Andy Summers and Eddie Van Halen rigs are not enough because you need also Hammet and Santana rigs, this is still not enough and you have to change program (preset) somehow :D

One feature I miss using two (or more) snapshots is I can not control wah and pitch pedal with one expression pedal becasuse they can have only only one assignment :(

This is a tutorial how to make MIDI controllers work for plugins in Reaper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGDsNhodc7Q

So - I can assign a foot pedal to change presets ?  I thought MIDI functionality wasn't built into native as of yet.  

[zolko60]

I don't think you can assign a foot pedal to change presets but you can make two "fake presets" using 1st and 8th snapshots and one midi toggle switch.
In my analog world I have no presets at all ;) (or one if you prefer to think this way).

[klarkkentster]

Here's a video showing my issues with using without internet. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z44a5o9tfyavop2/HELP.mov?dl=0

[waldek473ux]

Configuration working without problems

 

 

[soundog]

Gig Performer 3 is by far the best plug-in host I've found, and has the best MIDI control support I've found. Its expensive, but goes on sale now and then. I haven't tried Helix Native with it yet, but used it a lot with other plugins when I was performing live.

[igorkulik]

My Setup

[soundog]

@igorkulik -- very cool! Please tell us more about your setup, especially the monitor running Native.

[datacommando]

2 hours ago, igorkulik said:

My Setup

Wow! Very, very slick. More information would be nice.

[igorkulik]

2 hours ago, soundog said:

@igorkulik -- very cool! Please tell us more about your setup, especially the monitor running HX Edit.

Based on Intel® Desktop Board DG41AN. Sound interface M-Audio Audiophile 192. SSD 64GB. 10.1TNT Full HD screen.Resistive touchscreen. Resistive touchscreen hybrid control + Encoder. Arduino Mega 2560 midi controll. Input guitar impedance1-3 megaohm, line input stereo, out phone, out balanced xlr, output foot control pedal input. OS windows embedded standard 7, helix native, neural dsp.

[igorkulik]

 

[soundog]

@datacommando.... Well, of course! I fixed my post.

@igorkulik   I like it very much!

[datacommando]

9 hours ago, soundog said:

Well, of course! I fixed my post.

O.K. Deleted mine now.

 

At least we know more about this now.

 

@igorkulik Excellent!