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12 String Effect (and general question)


Tehzim
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I'm wanting to play some jangly Tom Petty (RIP) stuff this week.  Sadly I do not have a 12 string guitar.  Does the Helix have an effect that I could use to make that sound?  For example Digitech makes a pedal called the Mosaic that's basically a 12 string emulator.

 

Also, why is it that some of my patches that I make (just with amps and cabs) are at lower volume than the preset ones?  Is there a setting I have missed?  I am gauging this solely on what comes out of the headphone jack.

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Can't help you with the 12 string question, but as far as the volume issue... you simply need to tweak the CHANNEL VOLUME for the amp model.  If the MASTER volume of an amp model has been tweaked at all on any given patch, it can cause the volume to change.

There is plenty of info if you Google, regarding how to level your patches... but the way I PERSONALLY do it, on both the Atomic Amplifire and the Helix, is to simply keep my patches approximately as close to the same volume as the bypassed signal as possible.  So I start with the amp model, tweak it to my liking, then bounce between the amp model bypassed and ON - and get the "ON" state to be the same volume as when it's off.   As you add EQ and overdrives or whatnot - it may affect volume, so just keep adjusting as you go!

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The combination of Blocks -- and the values of their respective parameter settings -- in the Signal Path of a Preset, affects the resulting signal level from that Preset.

 

The Factory Presets differ, as will your own. The Amp Blocks each are of different gain and volume structures. They are not level balanced amongst one another. This you do on your own. Use the Amp Block's Channel Volume parameter to alter the Amp Block's volume without altering the Block's tone.

 

Most Blocks in the Signal Path have level or gain controls. Use those that are purposeful for your needs. You may also use the Output Block's level control, as well as insert a Gain Block in the Signal Path where you find it the most useful.

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But what about the 12 string effect?  That's what I really wanted to know.  I was just curious if I was the only one with the volume problem.  I guess that's what happens when you search the forums for the first thing but not the second.

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The combination of Blocks -- and the values of their respective parameter settings -- in the Signal Path of a Preset, affects the resulting signal level from that Preset.

 

The Factory Presets differ, as will your own. The Amp Blocks each are of different gain and volume structures. They are not level balanced amongst one another. This you do on your own. Use the Amp Block's Channel Volume parameter to alter the Amp Block's volume without altering the Block's tone.

 

Most Blocks in the Signal Path have level or gain controls. Use those that are purposeful for your needs. You may also use the Output Block's level control, as well as insert a Gain Block in the Signal Path where you find it the most useful.

How do I put in a gain block?  Is this the same thing as a volume boost or is it something else?  Forgive me I'm just now branching out into making my own presets and find it a bit daunting.

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Glenn Delaunne has a acoustic/classical patchs that has a decently, convincing 12 string emulation using the pitch shift. You might have luck trying to use/find a 12 string impulse response too. Or pick up a variax but nothing beats a real twelve string. Hope that helps!

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I had to buy a DigiTech Mosaic.  Far from spot-on, but works great as a "get by" solution, especially playing live.  Line 6 should definitely figure that one out (especially on the M series) cause anybody doing classic rock covers needs that sound and its a pain to have to spend the money and dedicate the pedal board space to such a specialized animal.

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The 12 string effect is really hard to nail, considering the unison lows and octave up highs on a real 12 string guitar.  Plus there's the detune effect caused by the strings being struck out of perfect sync.  The Mosaic mentioned above is close, but you're not going to get it out of the Helix unless you stick to specific sets of strings only, and even that is a stretch.  Cheap used 12 string guitars pop up all the time at my local stores, but to me it's not worth the setup headaches.  I'll just hold out until a G-1275 comes along and go full on budget-Lerxst and at least be able to look cool doing it.  :lol: :lol:

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The best way to get a good 12-string emulation is to pick up a Variax Standard.  It has Electric Rickenbacker 12 String models that would be perfect to Tom Petty or The Byrds.  You also get good acoustic 6 and 12 string models, as well as other acoustic models, alternate tunings, and lot's of configurability via software.  All changeable at the touch of a Helix footswitch.

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The best way to get a good 12-string emulation is to pick up a Variax Standard.  It has Electric Rickenbacker 12 String models that would be perfect to Tom Petty or The Byrds.  You also get good acoustic 6 and 12 string models, as well as other acoustic models, alternate tunings, and lot's of configurability via software.  All changeable at the touch of a Helix footswitch.

 

 

They are extraordinary. You can also get part of the way there with a POG 2. Works very well.

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  • 4 months later...

The best thing I can think of trying is a frequency split at Bb using the split block (just below the B string), then on the high path adding a few ms delay with few cents detune to simulate the doubled upper strings, and on the low frequency path adding a similar few ms delay with an octave up plus few cents detune to simulate the octave strings, then merge them back.

I haven't tried it (work), but it should allow open chords to be reasonably correct - things will be less realistic if you use bar chords. If you want to capo then snapshots will allow the freq split point to be changed.

I'll have to give it a go when I get home - it does depend on how sharp the frequency split fall off is, but I think I heard that it is a very steep slope.

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Update

I was wrong and it is a rubbish idea. The problem is that even the low strings have higher harmonics and they go through the double delay and interfere with the octave delay and it sounds unnatural or to be honest simply awful.

Sometimes a good chorus does a much better job. Or my JTV of course.

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Have you tried this?

 

https://line6.com/customtone/tone/1706438/

 

It is a couple of years old and may need some fine tuning with the 2.50 upgrade.  I had a patch I had modified from a set I bought from Glenn DeLaune the first year I owned the Helix but haven't used ti in some time and it is probably sitting in one of my backups pre-2.20

 

Good luck

 

Dennis

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Have you tried this?

 

https://line6.com/customtone/tone/1706438/

 

It is a couple of years old and may need some fine tuning with the 2.50 upgrade.  I had a patch I had modified from a set I bought from Glenn DeLaune the first year I owned the Helix but haven't used ti in some time and it is probably sitting in one of my backups pre-2.20

 

Good luck

 

Dennis

 

That preset is for a Variax. Unfortunately even if you changed the input to Multi or Guitar it appears that it might add some modulation and reverb but would have no way of doubling the bottom strings to an octave and the top to unison. 

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The best thing I can think of trying is a frequency split at Bb using the split block (just below the B string), then on the high path adding a few ms delay with few cents detune to simulate the doubled upper strings, and on the low frequency path adding a similar few ms delay with an octave up plus few cents detune to simulate the octave strings, then merge them back.

I haven't tried it (work), but it should allow open chords to be reasonably correct - things will be less realistic if you use bar chords. If you want to capo then snapshots will allow the freq split point to be changed.

I'll have to give it a go when I get home - it does depend on how sharp the frequency split fall off is, but I think I heard that it is a very steep slope.

 

 

Update

I was wrong and it is a rubbish idea. The problem is that even the low strings have higher harmonics and they go through the double delay and interfere with the octave delay and it sounds unnatural or to be honest simply awful.

Sometimes a good chorus does a much better job. Or my JTV of course.

 

I had exactly the same idea and precisely that concern about the harmonics triggering the processing on the wrong side of the crossover. Was going to experiment with that myself. Thanks for saving us the trouble. And coincidentally, I also have a JTV so that is what I use for 12 string passages. I will have to try it with the preset jpdennis posted above.  :)

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Use the Simple Pitch for a POG-like octave up effect. I've had the Mosaic, it's basically just their Whammy octave up with a tone control to remove some of the digital pitch shifting artifacts. You could replicate this by splitting the signal in the Helix, then running the Simple Pitch into a Low and High Cut EQ patch with just the high cut dialled in to taste.

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