hideout Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Why are some people downvoting the Independent pre and power amp blocks idea submission? Why would anyone not want this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritch666 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Don't know, and I don't know why it's not done yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingsCool Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Don't know, and I don't know why it's not done yet... If you've read any of the posts on it, it's not exactly easy. There is a lot of interaction between a preamp and poweramp, and there will have to be some thinkin' to figure out how to deal with that, and some compromises. But Ben has said he's got some ideas on how to get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingsCool Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Why are some people downvoting the Independent pre and power amp blocks idea submission? Why would anyone not want this? And, yeah, it's not like you would HAVE to use it. They'll still leave in the blocks as they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 And, yeah, it's not like you would HAVE to use it. They'll still leave in the blocks as they are.EXACTLY!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunedinDragon Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 If you've read any of the posts on it, it's not exactly easy. There is a lot of interaction between a preamp and poweramp, and there will have to be some thinkin' to figure out how to deal with that, and some compromises. But Ben has said he's got some ideas on how to get it done. I suspect this is exactly why it's been held up. That and the popular outcry from the user community is always about more amps and effects, and it's not clear to me how much of the user base this would be useful to, so it's questionable how much of a priority it is in the feature list based on demand. As to why people would downvote it...that's just a mystery. If it's not something you would use it doesn't impact you for it to be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willjrock Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Read some of the comments there, seems as if there is some belief that the downvoting is being done out of spite. Theres seems to be this thing that anyone down voting is public enemy #1 as if it shouldnt be allowed. Im downvoting because i dont want L6 wasting time here, when there are so many other things that helix needs, that are more important. The result of mixing pre/power amps is going to be far less impactful than what people think. On paper it sounds great and with hardware there'd be appreciable differences, but all this does in the softworld is make the rabbit hole a little bigger for those who enjoy going down it. Sure i see the other benefits the poster outlined and thats cool, but there are some important things already not being addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingsCool Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 I suspect this is exactly why it's been held up. That and the popular outcry from the user community is always about more amps and effects, and it's not clear to me how much of the user base this would be useful to, so it's questionable how much of a priority it is in the feature list based on demand. As to why people would downvote it...that's just a mystery. If it's not something you would use it doesn't impact you for it to be there. Ben gave quite a long post on the subject a while back (check out TGP and search his posts) In the end, it seemed like he pretty much figured out a good way to get it done. My bet is we won't see it till 3.0 (if ever), but I think it will make it if Ben can make it work. It's been a highly requested feature for a long time across multiple products. It may be time sometime soon. Read some of the comments there, seems as if there is some belief that the downvoting is being done out of spite. Theres seems to be this thing that anyone down voting is public enemy #1 as if it shouldnt be allowed. Im downvoting because i dont want L6 wasting time here when there are so many other things that helix needs, that are more important. The result of this mixing pre/power amps is going to be far less impactful than what people think. On paper it sounds great and with hardware there'd be appreciable differences, but all this does in the softworld is make the rabbit hole a little bigger for those who enjoy going down it. Sure i see the other benefits the poster outlined and thats cool, but there are some important things already not being addressed. The question was asked, you answered it. I think most people believe up voting what you want prioritizes things effectively. Obviously, you want to be even more proactive in directing their development priorities. I think you can understand why some people might take it personally. But they shouldn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 ...On paper it sounds great and with hardware there'd be appreciable differences, but all this does in the softworld is make the rabbit hole a little bigger for those who enjoy going down it. Amen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsdenj Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think there may be more value out of creating new digital amps inspired by analog counterparts. Litigator is a great example of the potential for Helix to model amplifiers that might be difficult or expensive to build in the analog world but are easy to implement in the digital domain. There are a lot of things that can be impacted in the power amp section: Class A vs AB and push-pull, negative feedback, bias, sag, etc. These thing have a lot of impact on the dynamics of an amp when it is pushed into clipping. Sag adds a very interesting and useful compression that happens when the amp is already clipping. Then power amps can result in some natural high-cut when they distort because the negative feedback is lost. These dynamic effects can really make a guitar amp sing. I would love to see more experimenting here, but not necessarily as separate power amps and preamps. I’d be happy to just have some new amp models that aren’t just clones of existing amps, and don’t have their compromises and limitations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 One more thing probably worthy of mention regarding offering separate pre and power amps is that it allows you to model your signal chain like a conventional guitar amplifier. The FX loops on most guitar amps sit in between the preamp and the power amp. They are not between the power amp and the cab which is where you get separate blocks on the Helix. Hasn't been a problem for me so far but I can see where for those wanting to mix and match preamps and power amps, and also for those who want a more flexible signal chain for FX placement that more closely mimics a conventional guitar amp, this would be a nice feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 One more thing probably worthy of mention regarding offering separate pre and power amps is that it allows you to model your signal chain like a conventional guitar amplifier. The FX loops on most guitar amps sit in between the preamp and the power amp. They are not between the power amp and the cab which is where you get separate blocks on the Helix. Hasn't been a problem for me so far but I can see where those wanting to mix and match preamps and power amps, and also for those who want a more flexible signal chain for FX placement that more closely mimics a conventional guitar amp, this would be a nice feature. And I’d bet that it would sound different. I do wonder about how real amps’ effects loops handle the change in impedance when you connect an effect in that loop. I remember putting a volume pedal in the effects loop of my tube amp years ago and hated the change in feel. I was trying to maintain the gain I’d set while being able to control the volume. I never got there. I’m hoping that I won’t have the same experience in the modeling world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingsCool Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 From TGP... @benadrian discusses... highly recommend going over to TGP to read all his posts https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?goto/post&id=23845504#post-23845504 Later, somebody suggested all they want to do is take the send on a marshall effects loop and put it in the effects loop return of another amp, not worrying about all the power supply "stuff". Ben basically responded "Hmmm, gears are turning..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 And I’d bet that it would sound different. I do wonder about how real amps’ effects loops handle the change in impedance when you connect an effect in that loop. I remember putting a volume pedal in the effects loop of my tube amp years ago and hated the change in feel. I was trying to maintain the gain I’d set while being able to control the volume. I never got there. I’m hoping that I won’t have the same experience in the modeling world. I agree, you would think they might sound quite different. You could insert effects after the preamp and before the modeled power amp had a chance to further attenuate/accentuate the frequencies set up in the preamp's tonestack. I don't know if the digital world is analogous but on the face of it, it would seem that this would deliver a different tone than inserting effects after a power amp The level of various frequencies hitting effects after a preamp block might be substantially different than those after a power amp block resulting in the effects processing the signal differently. And again, this would more closely replicate how effects are inserted in a guitar amp's FX loop. Depending on the Helix's design however, perhaps it would not make a substantial difference. Still nice for mixing and matching though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 I agree, you would think they might sound quite different. You could insert effects after the preamp and before the modeled power amp had a chance to further attenuate/accentuate the frequencies set up in the preamp's tonestack. I don't know if the digital world is analogous but on the face of it, it would seem that this would deliver a different tone than inserting effects after a power amp The level of various frequencies hitting effects after a preamp block might be substantially different than those after a power amp block resulting in the effects processing the signal differently. And again, this would more closely replicate how effects are inserted in a guitar amp's FX loop. Depending on the Helix's design however, perhaps it would not make a substantial difference. Still nice for mixing and matching though. Here are a couple of suggestions I made. Swap preamps and power amps within an amp or amp+cab block A Virtual Effects Loop in the amp and amp+cab block Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverhead Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 .... Im downvoting because i dont want L6 wasting time here, when there are so many other things that helix needs, that are more important. .... I don't see any harm in this, and has been said people shouldn't take it personally. However, I don't think it has the desired effect either. Prioritizing the importance of the items on ideascale is Line 6's job - not ours. They can see the downvotes as well as we can and I expect they ignore them. Their priorities are most likely based on how many people think it's a good idea (positive votes) not those who think it's less important than their own or other ideas. I think downvotes are probably ignored and hence useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee77 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) I would love to be able to use pre amp and power amp blocks. I use a wet dry wet set up and this would open up possibilities of routing of signals. Having said that the current set up works great. My only concern regarding the suggestions of putting fx loops between the preamp block and power amp block is the adding of noise from the send returns between the pre amp and power amp - which is a very critical place to be adding any noise especially if you add any amount of gain in the pre or power amp blocks or from whatever is placed in the loop. If I had a choice between separate pre and power amp blocks OR the ability to move the mic placement on cabs and also the ability to use two cabs with two different mic types and two different placements I would vote for that over sepearate pre power amp blocks as the amps are already great but the cabs definitely need some extra flexibility and options. The helix is amazing in what it does and the possibilities of what u could do and what improvements could be added must be endless. I imagine line 6 have a long list of possibilities but only so many can make it to the end product in terms of the improvements they bring vs time and costs to implement them and with an eye on the growing competition hawking around at this price point. Of course we all have our own dream list of what we want helix or a dream modeller to do.... you know the dream married to a dream of infinite processing power and hardware and firmware... So many possibilties - I'm excited to see where helix is going over the next 2 - 4 years... im commited to the helix journey.. Let's face it what we have at our creative disposal today is freaking amazing compared to 10 - 20 year ago... the future will be fun but it's already great fun today, not a criticism but don't lose sight of what it does already so brilliantly - that not so long ago we were dreaming of in the same way we always dreaming and looking forward to what it might do in the future - constantly evolving... Kind of a paradox... one amp and one guitar used to be good enough... some days with helix I'm happiest when I'm just dialed into one setting and seeing how I can manipulate the guitar thru playing it to achieve that goal of musical creative bliss... that's the only thing with digital - it can do so much it can get in the way of appreciating what is in your hands and ears already and being truly creative in the moment. And also the getting slightly frustrated at getting caught between what it can do and what you wish it could do and what would be the best way to implement - that can cloud what it actaully already does so well. But we are allowed to dream its what keeps us all evolving in every aspects of our lifes. I am married to evolving digital dreams forever now... I wonder what helix dreams of at night! haha... ummm back to reality - which amp should I plug into now - choices choices choices! we are spoilt my friends and it's great.. keep dreaming and evolving.... off to watch bladerunner in a bit - is helix the precursor to making machines that mimick human qualities - - i mean in the greater schemes of things learning how to model amps to serve our needs for greater tools than ever before is one step away from modelling humans to serve our growing mdoern needs... the greatest compliment you can pay is to take the time to learn to copy and emulate that thing you admire so much - we been doing it since cavemen listening to birds singing and then mimicking the sound they make by blowing into their hands.... we are mimickers... Intersting the other night seeing a bbc doc - Niles rodgers and Bernard edwards talking about the creative process - that if all you end up doing is copying whats gone before youve missed the point - its to learn from whats gone before and come up with something new and original, a new take on things and utilise the current tools around you at that point in time the best you can. And that really in the long term is the mission statement for digital modellling - lets see what it can come up with that is truly new and innovating rather than just pure copying... nothing wrong tho with a great emulation of a plexi amp... but im looking forward to seeing modelling tech push the envelope of what new tools it can bring to the musicians creative pallete and process and performance.. enjoy! Edited October 11, 2017 by jaybee77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotta_Gear Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Let's face it what we have at our creative disposal today is freaking amazing compared to 10 20 year ago... the future will be fun but it's already great fun today don't lose sight of what it does already so brilliantly do that not so long ago we were dreaming of in the same way we always dreaming and looking forward to what it might do in the future. Kind of a paradox... one amp and one guitar used to be good enough... some days with helix I'm happiest when I'm just dialed into one setting and seeing how I can manipulate the guitar thru playing it to achieve that goal of musical creative bliss... that's the only thing with digital it can do so much it can get in the way of appreciating what is in your hands and ears already and being truly creative in the moment. But I am married to evolving digital dreams forever now... ummm which amp should I plug into now choices choices choices we are spoilt my friends and it's great.. keep dreaming and evolving haha Yeah, this is where I'm at currently. For the first while all I did was explore one preset (01A US Double Nrm). It was like I'd bought a vintage Twin Reverb and was playing with it and getting used to it. I've only ever owned a couple of amps in my life (one of which is a '65 SR). Suddenly having dozens of amps and effects at my disposal was somewhat daunting at first, but now I'm starting to explore. Created a preset last night and tried at least 10 or so amps before settling on one (for the song "Hurts So Good" by Mellencamp). I've played guitar for over 40 years, and have always loved rocking out, and now it's just become SO much better! I think it'll be a while before the "kid in a candy store" feeling starts to fade... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicLaw Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 <Snip> If I had a choice between separate pre and power amp blocks or the ability to move the mic placement on cabs and also the ability to use two cabs with two different mic types and two different placements I would vote for that over sepearate pre power amp blocks as the amps are already great but the cabs definitely need some extra flexibility and options. <Snip>Agreed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 I think downvotes are probably ignored and hence useless. Then why bother giving the option? You suppose the powers that be are concerned about driving chronic down-voters into therapy by depriving them of the ability to $hit on someone else's idea? ;) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicLaw Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 <Snip> ... having dozens of amps and effects at my disposal was somewhat daunting at first, but now I'm starting to explore. Created a preset last night and tried at least 10 or so amps before settling on one (for the song "Hurts So Good" by Mellencamp). I've played guitar for over 40 years, and have always loved rocking out, and now it's just become SO much better! I think it'll be a while before the "kid in a candy store" feeling starts to fade...The fun never ends with Helix! Each firmware release expands our virtual studio-in-a-box inventory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willjrock Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Then why bother giving the option? You suppose the powers that be are concerned about driving chronic down-voters into therapy by depriving them of the ability to $hit on someone else's idea? ;) Lol, either you like it or get no vote. Ever heard the phrase like it or not? There ya go. In full effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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