Bass players: Getting "clarity" out of a bass preset?

[tjbassoon]

Part of this is the difference between the sound of the headphones I use and the amp I'm going into, but I'm struggling with getting a bass sound that has body and oomph, but also clarity. Body and oomph are pretty easy to get actually, but the note clarity, especially on the lower strings is proving difficult.

 

Any (free) IR that you'd suggest and if so what amp would you use with it?

 

With what's in the Helix natively, what amp/cab settings would be a good starting point?

 

I seem to do better just going straight into my practice amp, but I'd like to be able to get different qualities using the Helix for being able to go direct.

 

I have a P/J style bass, passive electronics.

[Lachdanan0121]

You are going to want to use high, and low cuts. Also the 3 band compressor will help as well. Helix gives you more frequency spectrum than the amps/cabs it models, so you have to remove the extra frequencies from the extreme low, and high end yourself to make them sound more like you are use too. Always try cutting surrounding frequencies before boosting frequencies for things like this.

As far as cabs.
I use the HX cabs. Usually something like a 4x10, with a 1x15 (or 1x18) in a parallel cab setup.

[pbatts]

Your bass guitar has passive electronics. Which input on the Helix are you using?

[tjbassoon]

Your bass guitar has passive electronics. Which input on the Helix are you using?

 

Instrument (guitar) input. Not the Aux.

[pbatts]

Cool. Just checking.

[cclement]

You are going to want to use high, and low cuts. Also the 3 band compressor will help as well.

 

This is a good place to start. An old mixing trick is to split the bass in two, EQ the highs out of one by quite a bit and then compress that "low end" signal pretty aggressively. Then EQ the low end out of the "high-en" signal and then just a bit of compression. This can help tighten up a bass sound. The same technique can be used in the Helix with the multi-band comp.

[tjbassoon]

This is a good place to start. An old mixing trick is to split the bass in two, EQ the highs out of one by quite a bit and then compress that "low end" signal pretty aggressively. Then EQ the low end out of the "high-en" signal and then just a bit of compression. This can help tighten up a bass sound. The same technique can be used in the Helix with the multi-band comp.

 

Damn, sounds like the Helix is perfect for this kind of setup. To the best of your knowledge, is there a preset in the Helix that gives a start for this setup that I can use as a starting point? I feel like I'm going to miss something building this from scratch.

 

I like some of the presets a lot through my headphones and those are really brittle through my amp, but those that sound good through the amp sound really woofy through the headphones. Of course, there are plenty that are woofy through the amp and just mud through the headphones.... I have a tweaked version of the Blue Woody preset or whatever it's called that I like best out of the amp so far.

[tjbassoon]

Man, compressors still boggle me.

 

I know I'm asking for handholding, but after trying to work on the 3-band compressor for a little bit I can't quite make it sound like what I want it to sound like in my head....

 

I'll keep trying, but I'm always looking for presets or suggestions on how to set things up. Comp is something I don't use in any of my other gear (and I'm new to the bass with effects thing, just got a bass after years of not playing at all)

[Lachdanan0121]

I suggest looking up some videos on compressors. That can "help" you wrap your head around how they work a little more. 

 

We really can't hold your hand. If you are this new to a lot of this, there is a lot of discovery that you have yet to do.  This is not being mean, its just the amount that we would have to cover to explain this would be kinda counterproductive to us, and take way too long. The information is already available in many tutorials, and forums.   Just about any subject matter in music is covered in multiple tutorials, even you tube.

 

We can't really just throw you a compressor setting, or preset, as this stuff is highly contextual. Meaning how you play, what style, and what gear all play affect. Not to mention other things.  This matters more now honestly than it did in the past with modelling. My multiple of guitars all sound more apparently different with the Helix, than they did with any modeler I had before.  

That is why it is better to learn how to use tools such as compressors.  I could give you a preset that I dialed in that I think works great for the bass I use, and context I used it, but it may sound like crap for you.

 

I know many guitarists are use to the plug, and play factor, and leave things like compressors up to the sound guy, or producer. The reality of these days is it is best if guitarists learn some of the techniques, and information that mixing engineers (and producers) use, especially with the tools we have these days.  The Helix isn't just a guitar FX pedal. It is a Guitar Amp/FX studio in a box.   (same for Helix Native)

 

 

You could look up videos on how to mix great sounding bass guitar, (it doesn't have to be with the helix) you can always apply what you learned from other equipment. 

I am really not trying to dismiss you, or shrug you off, but I think you could really learn some stuff by watching some good producers' videos on how to mix guitars, and bass.   Unless you plan on playing by your self permanently this is a great thing to learn anyway. 

 

It doesn't hurt to experiment, and play around with things to help you become more familiar. Look up the definitions of parameters, and what they are used for. There is seldom a better alternative than understanding. 

[tjbassoon]

No problem. I recently watched a half hour long video with Keely on how compressors work, the difference between limiting and sustaining compressors. I get how they work and what they do, but I don't have the practical "on hand" experience with dialing in a sound that works for me.

 

When I use bassoon I want absolutely 0 compression, so it's just one effect that I haven't got into. Anything else I'm golden, but comp on bass seems like a requirement pretty much.

[Lachdanan0121]

Oh, I see. I thought you were a complete novice in general with signal chains, FX, and (basically) what is what.. My mistake. 

 

Compressors are one of the things that take a while to understand.  Then when you start by throwing in multi-band compressors, it can be even more daunting. But a 3-band compressor gives you the ability to compress each of the Low/Mid/High frequencies individually.

 

Here is a link that can help with the explanation with the compressor  using the attack to compress, or let through the transients for more "thump." 

http://www.homestudiocorner.com/3-tips-for-getting-a-good-bass-sound/.

This could be used to help further dial clarity, and "omph."

 

 

That is about as far as I can take you, the rest is a rabbit hole for you to delve.  ;)

[tjbassoon]

Oh, I see. I thought you were a complete novice in general with signal chains, FX, and (basically) what is what.. My mistake. 

 

Compressors are one of the things that take a while to understand.  Then when you start by throwing in multi-band compressors, it can be even more daunting. But a 3-band compressor gives you the ability to compress each of the Low/Mid/High frequencies individually.

 

Here is a link that can help with the explanation with the compressor  using the attack to compress, or let through the transients for more "thump." 

http://www.homestudiocorner.com/3-tips-for-getting-a-good-bass-sound/.

This could be used to help further dial clarity, and "omph."

 

 

That is about as far as I can take you, the rest is a rabbit hole for you to delve.  ;)

 

Oh gosh, no. I can see why you thought that though. I have had some really complex setups over the last 10 years. Most of my other rigs have never offered the flexibility of the Helix though, and this is the first time I'm trying any of this with bass. The last time I played bass was.... 18+ years ago? And I went guitar > amp and didn't know lollipop about effects anyway.

 

I'm getting close. I think a lot of the bass amp+cab settings in the Helix just don't jive with what I'm running it into. But maybe in a band mix it wouldn't be so bad. But I listen to more stuff like Jaco, Tower of Power, Flecktones (Wooten) and those guys all have really clear and precise bass tones, even when they're not slapping.

[hideout]

I'm getting close. I think a lot of the bass amp+cab settings in the Helix just don't jive with what I'm running it into. But maybe in a band mix it wouldn't be so bad. But I listen to more stuff like Jaco, Tower of Power, Flecktones (Wooten) and those guys all have really clear and precise bass tones, even when they're not slapping.

As bassist myself, I have noticed a couple of things that have not been mentioned here; picking position and pickup selection. I find that where you pick in relation to the bridge and which pickup is selected makes a huge difference in tone and articulation. Using the bridge pickup and picking closer to the bridge gives the best articulation and clarity. I never use a bass’s neck pickup personally - too muddy. With the exception of when I’m playing a Fender Jazz Bass of course, as that instrument allows you to blend the two pickups. I often mix in a bit of the neck pickup to add some warmth and lows. Yes, using the bridge pickup only will need you to boost the lows but that’s never a problem in my experience. This technique is especially true when you’re trying to emulate the sound of the players you mentioned.

[hideout]

Check out Victor Wooten’s right hand position.

[tjbassoon]

Yeah, I've been messing with location of playing. I used to really not like playing closer to the bridge, but I'm getting used to the color variations I can make and think I'm getting the hang of the different feeling of the strings over that section.

 

I have come up with one conclusion though: the headphones I'm using are garbage for testing bass presets on the Helix. They're fine for listening to music but I think they're really rather bass heavy and woofy sounding cans. I brought out my Etymotic ear buds, which I know are pretty flat response (specs from the manufacturer are easy to see this) as they're designed more as monitoring phones than consumer driven bass heavy headphones are, and the sound of the bass just cleared right up. Much more in line with what I'm getting out of my practice amp. I think that was a big part of my problem. So many amp/cab combos I was trying sound just fine now when they were just muddy crap before.

[MusicLaw]

Also experiment with the infrequently discussed Frequency Crossover variant of Helix's Split Block!

 

This can be a very powerful tool to segment your BASS signal based on frequency. Essentially, splitting it to two paths allowing for individual EQ'ing, Compressing, Limiting, or otherwise processing each of the two signal paths, perhaps even via differently voiced Cabs or IRs, regardless if you Merge them back into one (or not).

[shanecgriffo]

i saw peter hook and the light play last night (bass player from joy division and new order) he and his son were on bass duties and were playing joy division songs with a similar sound to the original band (except with a more modern very punchy mix) They were both playing ampeg amps- i'd start there and play around with balancing the mids and bass to taste.. they had a very punchy 'middley' sound with tight tops..

[FlyingsCool]

Yeah, I've been messing with location of playing. I used to really not like playing closer to the bridge, but I'm getting used to the color variations I can make and think I'm getting the hang of the different feeling of the strings over that section.

 

I have come up with one conclusion though: the headphones I'm using are garbage for testing bass presets on the Helix. They're fine for listening to music but I think they're really rather bass heavy and woofy sounding cans. I brought out my Etymotic ear buds, which I know are pretty flat response (specs from the manufacturer are easy to see this) as they're designed more as monitoring phones than consumer driven bass heavy headphones are, and the sound of the bass just cleared right up. Much more in line with what I'm getting out of my practice amp. I think that was a big part of my problem. So many amp/cab combos I was trying sound just fine now when they were just muddy crap before.

 

That was my first thought when I read your question.....

Gonna be true for pretty much any pair of headphones... There's just not enough space for the diaphragm to move enough at such low frequencies....

I'm a little surprised that you're getting a comparable response from the buds... what's your practice amp?

[tjbassoon]

That was my first thought when I read your question.....

Gonna be true for pretty much any pair of headphones... There's just not enough space for the diaphragm to move enough at such low frequencies....

I'm a little surprised that you're getting a comparable response from the buds... what's your practice amp?

 

Practice amp is a Hartke B30. 1x10 solid state. Keeping it flat EQ to get the most flat sound out of it, although I have no idea what the frequency response output is like on this thing.

 

I've also tested my really nice AER Compact 60 acoustic guitar amp. That's a very flat amp and while it's small and can't push the lows for feel/rumble like a bigger speaker can, it's an accurate representation of the sound I'm going for. Just doesn't have the low end grab.

 

The headphones were too heavy in the low end and not enough highs. My buds are designed to be clear and flat, so I always use those as a reference place.