24 hours later... So, is the squirrel gone???

[pinoy1]

I was reading up some comments on TGP and some people are claiming that those 'squirrels/harsh-top-end fizz/artifact' sound is no longer there???  

 

What do you think guys?  Is that issue now consider dead (if there was an issue to begin with)?

[themetallikid]

I haven't updated yet, as I've got two gigs the next 3 days, but I haven't ever had an issue with the 'fizz' that others complain about using any modeler.  I had a Fractal before...and people complained there as well.  Get some decent IR's and tweak as you would a real amp, no issues generally. 

 

Haters gotta hate....lol..

 

 

Only units I've heard fizz with has been the $500 and under units like the Boss GT series.  Usually need 2 or 3 EQ's after the preamps to tame whatever artifacts they have in the preamp/cab sims.  Just never sounds right, and shouldn't have to edit that much to get a usable sound. 

[willjrock]

  Get some decent IR's and tweak as you would a real amp, no issues generally. 

 

I think the whole point here is relating to the stock cabs. Nobody really complains of the high end harshness once they've switched to IRs but folks expect the native cabs to be useful as well. Yet only select few seem to really appreciate them.

 

Some cant afford them, some just plain feel like they shouldn't have to buy them, as helix should be a perfectly usable piece of gear on its own.

 

That being said, it DOES sound like some of the high end harshness is gone. Im stuck on a set of "back up monitors" for the next couple of weeks. They are a bit unfamiliar and wont afford me the confidence to know for 100% sure, but there are ways around this.

[phil_m]

I think the whole point here is relating to the stock cabs. Nobody really complains of the high end harshness once they've switched to IRs but folks expect the native cabs to be useful as well. Yet only select few seem to really appreciate them.

 

Some cant afford them, some just plain feel like they shouldn't have to buy them, as helix should be a perfectly usable piece of gear on its own.

 

That being said, it DOES sound like some of the high end harshness is gone. Im stuck on a set of "back up monitors" for the next couple of weeks. They are a bit unfamiliar and wont afford me the confidence to know for 100% sure, but there are ways around this.

 

I bet most users are perfectly happy with the stock cabs and that if you looked at the percentage of people actually buying IRs, it's probably a minority. Personally, I've bought a few IRs, but I still use the stock cabs for the vast majority of my patches.

[themetallikid]

I think the whole point here is relating to the stock cabs. Nobody really complains of the high end harshness once they've switched to IRs but folks expect the native cabs to be useful as well. Yet only select few seem to really appreciate them.

 

Some cant afford them, some just plain feel like they shouldn't have to buy them, as helix should be a perfectly usable piece of gear on its own.

 

That being said, it DOES sound like some of the high end harshness is gone. Im stuck on a set of "back up monitors" for the next couple of weeks. They are a bit unfamiliar and wont afford me the confidence to know for 100% sure, but there are ways around this.

I used the stock cabs for the first 4 months I've had the Helix, I think they are usable, but come with their own set of tweaking needs.  Using an IR just eliminates some steps in moving sliders and knobs.  Choose a file and tweak around that, as opposed to going with a stock amp setting and tweaking the cab.  With the digital units there are usually a dozen places you can add bass/treble/mids to a sound....older analog rigs you only had a few places.  So I think people who don't like the stock cabs, just don't spend enough time tweaking to find a usable sound.  I got lots of compliments from guitarists in my community regarding my sound, but I agree IR's are typically a cleaner sound to start with.

[willjrock]

I bet most users are perfectly happy with the stock cabs and that if you looked at the percentage of people actually buying IRs, it's probably a minority. Personally, I've bought a few IRs, but I still use the stock cabs for the vast majority of my patches.

Brother, most everyone uses IRs, except a handful around here that are somewhat gun-ho on the whole topic. There's too much tweaking and experimentation involved in the stock cabs. They dont sound a lot like the cabs they are modeled after, nor do the mic models impart any of the characteristics of the real mic, and there is a lack of control that doesn't afford you that hyper-realism. Left right movement for starters.

 

Sure ive heard some ok sounds after a bunch of fidgeting, but how that compares to a near exact replication of some of the finest cabinets, speakers,and preamps, in the history of guitar, in a good room , made by good engineers, is a distant second at best. To say the stock cabs are on par with a near carbon copy, of those elite tones would be biased opinion, to put it mildly.

[phil_m]

Brother, most everyone uses IRs, except a handful around here that are somewhat gun-ho on the whole topic. There's too much tweaking and experimentation involved in the stock cabs. They dont sound a lot like the cabs they are modeled after, nor do the mic models impart any of the characteristics of the real mic, and there is a lack of control that doesn't afford you that hyper-realism. Left right movement for starters.

 

Sure ive heard some ok sounds after a bunch of fidgeting, but how that compares to a near exact replication of some of the finest cabinets, speakers,and preamps, in the history of guitar, in a good room , made by good engineers, is a distant second at best. To say the stock cabs are on par with a near carbon copy, of those elite tones would be biased opinion, to put it mildly.

I highly doubt the majority or users are using IRs. In the Facebook user group, which has 11,000 members, every time it’s been asked, I believe stocks cabs have come out on top. Many people still don’t really understand what an IR even is. Short of actual data, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, but I think the average user is still relatively unsophisticated.

[MusicLaw]

There are several Free IR's provided by Allure, available for download via the Line6 site at Line6.com/allure. I just installed these after I did the 2.30 update. The Allure IRs download is a separate zip file. It is not automatically installed by the new Updater. Nonetheless, it was a cinch to download and install them from the Line 6 site. Then Extract them from the Zip file and Import them to the Helix using HX Edit. I have yet to give them a listen. The included Readme PDF states:

 

Line 6 Allure Pack IRs

What is the Line 6 Allure Pack?

The Allure Pack is a set of free IRs (impulse responses) created by Dan Boul of 65 Amps (http://65amps.com). Its goal is to emulate the unique dynamic mic’ing style of a world-famous producer known for his impressive guitar tones.

The IRs

• Allure_59_Tweed_P10N.wav

• Allure_64_A30_G12.wav

• Allure_64_USDeluxe_P12N.wav

• Allure_67_Brit_Greenback.wav

• Allure_70s_WhoWatt_100.wav

• Allure_90s_Cali_V30.wav

Loading the Line 6 Allure Pack Into Helix

Loading custom impulse responses requires connecting to the Helix application in your Mac® or Windows® computer. The Helix application is available as a free download from

line6.com/software. To load IRs into non-Helix hardware or software, see your product’s documentation.

1. Connect Helix (or Helix Rack) to your computer via USB and

open the Helix application.

2. Click the Impulses tab.

3. Drag one or more Allure IR files directly into the Helix app's

Impulses list.

4. Create an Impulse Response block.

5. With the Impulse Response block selected, turn Knob 1 (IR Select) to choose the desired IR.

[aleclee]

I was reading up some comments on TGP and some people are claiming that those 'squirrels/harsh-top-end fizz/artifact' sound is no longer there???  

 

What do you think guys?  Is that issue now consider dead (if there was an issue to begin with)?

 

i'm one of the folks on TGP who made the squirrel observation.  I find it to be a relative non-issue now.  I still hear some things I don't much care for in the Vox models but it's now as squirrel-free as any modeler I've owned (AxeFx, Amplifire being the most recent).

 

I think the whole point here is relating to the stock cabs. Nobody really complains of the high end harshness once they've switched to IRs but folks expect the native cabs to be useful as well. Yet only select few seem to really appreciate them.

 

I dunno.  I heard squirrels just as much in IRs as stock cabs unless they had a steep high cut baked into the IR. While I have accumulated a pretty big IR collection, I still start with the stock cabs and only go to IRs when I can't find a stock cab that does the trick.

[zooey]

Brother, most everyone uses IRs, except a handful around here that are somewhat gun-ho on the whole topic. There's too much tweaking and experimentation involved in the stock cabs

Boy, I don't know how you use IRs with EDIT without TONS of experimentation! That's what you have to do, try a bunch. I suppose maybe not, if you have so much personal experience with all the available cabs and speakers and mics and positions and IR makers and combinations thereof that you can just open a huge nested directory of IRs and pull out that one magic one, but that's most definitely not me.

Plus, auditioning different mics and distances is way quicker with stock cabs than IRs, since you don't have to load some tiny fraction of a pack at a time into your Helix first.

I use both stock cabs and IRs myself, but I really doubt IR users are a vast overall majority.

[willjrock]

Boy, I don't know how you use IRs with TONS of experimentation! That's what you have to do, try a bunch. I suppose maybe not, if you have so much personal experience with all the available cabs and speakers and mics and positions and IR makers and combinations thereof that you can just open a huge nested directory of IRs and pull out that one magic one, but that's most definitely not me.

Plus, auditioning different mics and distances is way quicker with stock cabs than IRs, since you don't have to load some tiny fraction of a pack at a time into your Helix first.

I use both stock cabs and IRs myself, but I really doubt IR users are a vast overall majority.

You have to know what you want. You dont go into a shoe store and try on every pair of shoes in the store. You look for the Nikes, then you look for the gray ones, then you look for the size 11s, then you try those on. Seems like a lot of people spend time experimenting with an Uberkab with V30s and a 57 because they dont know the tone theyve been attracted to all their lives is a Marshall sound with a 421 pointed at 25watt greenbacks. A little background and a little common sense goes a long way. 

 

As far as whats quicker, its really not part of the discussion. Good tone will take some sacrifices, just the same as using a hardware set-up. Theres going to be some experimentation involved....besides, once your sounds are set, the stock cabs are NO quicker because all youre doing is selecting a preset.... unless one is to spend all his time auditioning sounds.

i'm one of the folks on TGP who made the squirrel observation.  I find it to be a relative non-issue now.  I still hear some things I don't much care for in the Vox models but it's now as squirrel-free as any modeler I've owned (AxeFx, Amplifire being the most recent).

I dunno.  I heard squirrels just as much in IRs as stock cabs unless they had a steep high cut baked into the IR. While I have accumulated a pretty big IR collection, I still start with the stock cabs and only go to IRs when I can't find a stock cab that does the trick.

The high end harshness is extremely minimal in IRs unless you have a poor head/cab match or are pushing the outer boundaries of the tone controls and/or distortion, so saying you hear it "just as much"......respectfully bro, it sounds like a bit of an exaggeration. 

 

Not only that but there are other aspects of helix stock cabs that just dont stand up to IRs without generous amounts of EQ. Starting with a lack of any cabinet warmth, and any real characteristics of the mic its attempting to model. I have ALL of the mics being modeled except for a few of the Neumanns and brother the stock cabs sound a lot more like the same file, with a bit of a different EQ curve applied, more so than the sound of any real mic i own..... Even compared to the IR files which certainly exhibit the qualities of the mic associated to the file. 

 

it's now as squirrel-free as any modeler

 

Im not sure what exactly you think has changed?  A few of us have tested firmware versions against one another, after claims that certain firmware releases "sound better" only to underscore the fact that the cabinets sound the same. They null out completely, so if youre trying to say L6 has been modifying the cabinets over the course of their firmware releases, youd have to point out where you hear a change so it can be tested and proven. As far as i know L6 has never even claimed to make any alterations to the cabs, nor has such been described in any of the release notes.

 

 

EDIT: I thinks its important to note that my comments are mainly directed towards mid to higher gain sounds.

[zooey]

You have to know what you want. You dont go into a shoe store and try on every pair of shoes in the store. You look for the Nikes, then you look for the gray ones, then you look for the size 11s, then you try those on. Seems like a lot of people spend time experimenting with an Uberkab with V30s and a 57 because they dont know the tone theyve been attracted to all their lives is a Marshall sound with a 421 pointed at 25watt greenbacks. A little background and a little common sense goes a long way.

I've been playing for over 50 years, a good hunk of that professionally, and still haven't played real-world versions of the vast majority of amps, cabs, pedals, or fx in Helix. Guess I'll just have to get by without all that background and common sense that makes these choices so obvious :)

 

Seriously though, for me the ability to try all this stuff for free (built-in) or relatively inexpensively (third-party IRs), and without the racket, inconvenience, and spotty stock of an actual music store is great. I'm fine putting in some time to try stuff. I've always done that, rewiring my amps and guitars, hooking stuff up however, etc., just now I get to do it so much more cheaply and easily. When I shoe-horned a pair of JBL 15s into an old-style small Bassman cab back in high school, it was a big deal; if I hadn't liked it it would have been an expensive PITA boondoggle. Today, if I don't like that Uberkab, so what? At least I got to try it and find that out.

[willjrock]

I've been playing for over 50 years, a good hunk of that professionally, and still haven't played real-world versions of the vast majority of amps, cabs, pedals, or fx in Helix. Guess I'll just have to get by without all that background and common sense that makes these choices so obvious :)

Dude,its not important to have played through every amp, cab, and combination of the two. I mean you DO hear sounds on the radio and think "man what a great guitar sound" and then go off to investigate what the guitar player is using? Right? Its not just me that wants to have a little background and understanding on the sounds i hear, is it? Even if ive never played thru the rig.

 

You HAVE seen other guitar players live and want to understand what makes their rig tick, or have been at least a semi professional studio before, right? Sheesh. I guess you really are going to have to forego a little of that common sense :P

[ricstudioc]

Brother, most everyone uses IRs, except a handful around here that are somewhat gun-ho on the whole topic.

Source of your statistics, please?

[zooey]

I guess you really are going to have to forego a little of that common sense :P

Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, sorted. Even my mom knew that :)

[DunedinDragon]

I've been playing for over 50 years, a good hunk of that professionally, and still haven't played real-world versions of the vast majority of amps, cabs, pedals, or fx in Helix. Guess I'll just have to get by without all that background and common sense that makes these choices so obvious :)

 

Seriously though, for me the ability to try all this stuff for free (built-in) or relatively inexpensively (third-party IRs), and without the racket, inconvenience, and spotty stock of an actual music store is great. I'm fine putting in some time to try stuff. I've always done that, rewiring my amps and guitars, hooking stuff up however, etc., just now I get to do it so much more cheaply and easily. When I shoe-horned a pair of JBL 15s into an old-style small Bassman cab back in high school, it was a big deal; if I hadn't liked it it would have been an expensive PITA boondoggle. Today, if I don't like that Uberkab, so what? At least I got to try it and find that out.

 

Personally I think trying to audition every amp, cab, mic and variation is just impractical.  The variations are simply endless.

 

I've taken a bit more practical approach in looking at what certain artists use and the style of music they're associated with which then leads me to those amp and cab combinations if I'm doing something that needs a similar feel.  I do briefly try out new amps that get introduced, but it's rare I find a new one that becomes a real "go-to" amp for me.  I generally divide up the amps into categories such as heavier rock, classic rock, vintage rock and roll, rockabilly, older country, newer country, jazz....etc.  That more or less kind of helps me keep in mind the limited number of amps I may want to use in my lineup.

[willjrock]

Source of your statistics, please?

Wonder why you wouldnt ask either side for their "statistics"......IF you were REALLY interested in statistics and not just out for a midnight troll?  Its not hard to see who you are trying to side up to. Next time youre trying to be slick, you'll have to do a little better than that.

[ricstudioc]

Wonder why you wouldnt ask either side for their "statistics"......IF you were REALLY interested in statistics and not just out for a midnight troll?  Its not hard to see who you are trying to side up to. Next time youre trying to be slick, you'll have to do a little better than that.

Simple - the "other side" hasn't made a blanket statement of asserted fact.  You made a declarative - "most everybody".  That would imply some sort of survey, or study that has been performed.  For all I know such an analysis exists, and you are privy to it - my request was simply that you share that information.  You have an opinion, and are entitled to that - but that's not how you couched your statement.  So yes - I'm REALLY interested in the factual basis for your statement.

 

"Who (I'm) trying to side up to..."?  Huh?  S'pose I better check my PayPal account - must be tons of donations coming in from that "other side".  Good - holidays are coming up.

 

And I'm not remotely "slick" - just analytical and rational - and very clear in my speech.  When I can prove something as fact, I do so - otherwise I acknowledge my bias.

[dragonfet]

Let's head back to the original topic.

I hadn't updated until today because my Helix Floor was in the bandroom. So I decided it might be a good idea to answer the question "Did something change with IR and/or cabsim sound between firmware versions 2.21 and 2.30?". TL;DR: Yes, but the impact is minimal.There is no measurable difference. [Edit, see below]

My setup is as follows:
- Modified Ibanez PIB1 goes wirelessly into the Helix AUX input
- DAW: Reaper
- 96 kHz / 24 Bit throughout the process

I used the bridge pickup in coilsplit mode which gives a thin, guitar-like sound that emphasizes the highs. I recorded a single take with low and high notes in Reaper, then reamped it through the Helix with two signal paths:
1. Industrial Fuzz into an IR: 2048 point Mesa 2x12 IR
2. German Ubersonic into a cabsim: 4x12 XXL V30, Mic 57 Cabsim

Both sound harsh and too broad for any useful application, but provide a good amount of high frequencies for the test, which was as follows:
1. Record both paths on Firmware 2.21
2. Backup, Update
3. Restore Backup, Reboot to let Helix rebuild the patches
4. Record both paths on Firmware 2.30
5. Invert phase on the 2.21 tracks
6. Render each pair of tracks into a single WAVE file respectively

Since the phase is inverted, the result would be "nothing" (a WAVE file filled with zeroes) if there is no difference between firmware 2.21 and 2.30. This is true for the Fuzz-IR path, but the Amp-Cabsim one is not reproduced exactly the same. Reaper normalizes the difference file to +84.2 dB, which means the actual change is happening at -84.2 dB. This is absolutely inaudible - aside from those people who hear the solder joints in their cables.

 

Edit: Following a suggestion by hefonthefjords, I compared two Amp-Cabsim-recordings of the same source take in 2.30. The result is again a slight difference at -84.2 dB, which means that this difference is not related to the firmware version. There might be even smaller smaller differences (below 84.2 dB) that are hidden in the natural variations of the Helix modeling, which can't be detected by this test. But then again: These would be impossible to have an audible impact.

Keep in mind: I was testing a single preset. It is not said that the difference is nil / -84.2 dB for all other possible combinations. Results may vary.

Edited November 26, 2017 by dragonfet

[zooey]

Thanks for doing that, good test. Not exhaustive, as you point out, but a good ballpark baseline.

[hefonthefjords]

Since the phase is inverted, the result would be "nothing" (a WAVE file filled with zeroes) if there is no difference between firmware 2.21 and 2.30. This is true for the Fuzz-IR path, but the Amp-Cabsim one is not reproduced exactly the same. Reaper normalizes the difference file to +84.2 dB, which means the actual change is happening at -84.2 dB. This is absolutely inaudible - aside from those people who hear the solder joints in their cables.

 

Keep in mind: I was testing a single preset. It is not said that the difference is nil / -84.2 dB for all other possible combinations. Results may vary.

 

Speaking as an audio engineer, I admire your testing methodology here.

 

I have one question that may complicate your test slightly though...

 

Since helix is modelling analogue gear and by nature of the inherent variability of analogue gear's signal reproduction instance to instance, should you not also test two examples of 2.21's output against themselves and two examples of 2.30's output against themselves to rule out the possibility that the analogue emulation is simply really good and doesn't ever yield the exact same output twice from the same input signal?

 

Food for thought.

[hefonthefjords]

For the sake of contributing something other than speculation, I haven't noticed any audible difference between the firmware versions as yet, however I have yet to test the new firmware at giggable volume levels.

[Guitarmaniac64]

Brother, most everyone uses IRs, except a handful around here that are somewhat gun-ho on the whole topic. There's too much tweaking and experimentation involved in the stock cabs. They dont sound a lot like the cabs they are modeled after, nor do the mic models impart any of the characteristics of the real mic, and there is a lack of control that doesn't afford you that hyper-realism. Left right movement for starters.

 

Sure ive heard some ok sounds after a bunch of fidgeting, but how that compares to a near exact replication of some of the finest cabinets, speakers,and preamps, in the history of guitar, in a good room , made by good engineers, is a distant second at best. To say the stock cabs are on par with a near carbon copy, of those elite tones would be biased opinion, to put it mildly.

Agree the stock cab lovers seems to be a group of fanboys that never understood how to use IR and they usually rely on 1-2 of the stock cabs with the same mic the royer and tons of EQ,s and filtering and that is very limited for people that need many different sounds

 

Also some people might use stock cabs only beacuse they dont even know what IR is and mostly of those also complain of the fizziness digital sound that Helix have or i should say had especially on high gain and the squirrells on edge of breakup tones

 

Those are user that never have done some computer home recording and never heard of IR,s almost always when they switch to a good IR you can read comments like i tried IR bla bla and now i finally like my Helix etc etc..

 

As for myself i heard those digital blanket fizziness nd squirrells sounds even when using IR as i only use IR with my Helix

But i must say they seems to be gone now also the overall sound of Helix seems better and more pleasent than before..

[Rocco_Crocco]

"Do you use IRs or stock cabs most of the time?" -- I started a poll on TGP. I wish there was a poll option on this (Line 6) forum. 

 

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/helix-users-poll-irs-or-stock-cabs.1887292/

[bobthedog]

"Do you use IRs or stock cabs most of the time?" -- I started a poll on TGP. I wish there was a poll option on this (Line 6) forum. 

 

http://Do you use IRs or stock cabs most of the time?

 

 

That seems to be the wrong link, it just takes us back here, round and round and round.

[dragonfet]

Since helix is modelling analogue gear and by nature of the inherent variability of analogue gear's signal reproduction instance to instance, should you not also test two examples of 2.21's output against themselves and two examples of 2.30's output against themselves to rule out the possibility that the analogue emulation is simply really good and doesn't ever yield the exact same output twice from the same input signal?

You are absolutely correct, thanks for the suggestion. I just did the test again with just the Amp-Cabsim path on 2.30 and there is a difference between the "new" and the "old" recording, again at -84.2 dB. I deduct that there is no strict corellation to the firmware version change, so it looks even more like there is no change at all. I have edited my original post.

[bobthedog]

For me there is a difference in the "fizz", it is noticeable adding a default Stone Age or Soup Pro anyway.

 

The fizz sounds filtered now, less high frequency content. It sounds better to me.

 

Of course this all could be in my head!

[Rocco_Crocco]

That seems to be the wrong link, it just takes us back here, round and round and round.

Thanks.... I just fixed it.

[GenoBluzGtr]

voted

[ricstudioc]

Let's head back to the original topic.

 

I hadn't updated until today because my Helix Floor was in the bandroom. So I decided it might be a good idea to answer the question "Did something change with IR and/or cabsim sound between firmware versions 2.21 and 2.30?". TL;DR: Yes, but the impact is minimal.There is no measurable difference. [Edit, see below]

 

My setup is as follows:

- Modified Ibanez PIB1 goes wirelessly into the Helix AUX input

- DAW: Reaper

- 96 kHz / 24 Bit throughout the process

 

I used the bridge pickup in coilsplit mode which gives a thin, guitar-like sound that emphasizes the highs. I recorded a single take with low and high notes in Reaper, then reamped it through the Helix with two signal paths:

1. Industrial Fuzz into an IR: 2048 point Mesa 2x12 IR

2. German Ubersonic into a cabsim: 4x12 XXL V30, Mic 57 Cabsim

 

Both sound harsh and too broad for any useful application, but provide a good amount of high frequencies for the test, which was as follows:

1. Record both paths on Firmware 2.21

2. Backup, Update

3. Restore Backup, Reboot to let Helix rebuild the patches

4. Record both paths on Firmware 2.30

5. Invert phase on the 2.21 tracks

6. Render each pair of tracks into a single WAVE file respectively

 

Since the phase is inverted, the result would be "nothing" (a WAVE file filled with zeroes) if there is no difference between firmware 2.21 and 2.30. This is true for the Fuzz-IR path, but the Amp-Cabsim one is not reproduced exactly the same. Reaper normalizes the difference file to +84.2 dB, which means the actual change is happening at -84.2 dB. This is absolutely inaudible - aside from those people who hear the solder joints in their cables.

 

Edit: Following a suggestion by hefonthefjords, I compared two Amp-Cabsim-recordings of the same source take in 2.30. The result is again a slight difference at -84.2 dB, which means that this difference is not related to the firmware version. There might be even smaller smaller differences (below 84.2 dB) that are hidden in the natural variations of the Helix modeling, which can't be detected by this test. But then again: These would be impossible to have an audible impact.

 

Keep in mind: I was testing a single preset. It is not said that the difference is nil / -84.2 dB for all other possible combinations. Results may vary.

 

 

Speaking as an audio engineer, I admire your testing methodology here.

 

I have one question that may complicate your test slightly though...

 

Since helix is modelling analogue gear and by nature of the inherent variability of analogue gear's signal reproduction instance to instance, should you not also test two examples of 2.21's output against themselves and two examples of 2.30's output against themselves to rule out the possibility that the analogue emulation is simply really good and doesn't ever yield the exact same output twice from the same input signal?

 

Food for thought.

Thanks to both you guys - way to dig down, and interesting results.  appreciate the effort...

[bobthedog]

For me there is a difference in the "fizz", it is noticeable adding a default Stone Age or Soup Pro anyway.

 

The fizz sounds filtered now, less high frequency content. It sounds better to me.

 

Of course this all could be in my head!

 

 

And today it is back to fizzy for me, so either I am going mad, something was set up differently or something is awry!

[rzumwalt]

[...]

 

Edit: Following a suggestion by hefonthefjords, I compared two Amp-Cabsim-recordings of the same source take in 2.30. The result is again a slight difference at -84.2 dB, which means that this difference is not related to the firmware version. There might be even smaller smaller differences (below 84.2 dB) that are hidden in the natural variations of the Helix modeling, which can't be detected by this test. But then again: These would be impossible to have an audible impact.

 

Keep in mind: I was testing a single preset. It is not said that the difference is nil / -84.2 dB for all other possible combinations. Results may vary.

This is fantastic work, thanks for taking it on. And it reminds me of something I noticed in 2.30.

For the first time the other day, I heard a very slight, but very definite, undulation in the output of a couple amp models. I was using IRs in each instance. I noticed it with light to mid drive settings on the the new Brit Trem Bright and on the existing Matchless Ch1. (And correct me if I'm wrong, but the Brit Trem doesn't actually have a tremolo integrated into it, right?) It occurred to me that, if I'm not imagining it and it wasn't just an artifact of the room I was in, it might be a new feature written into the code, some kind of randomization. I recalled a post on here a couple of months ago in which a user reported getting more authentic amp sounds by putting an optic tremolo with minimal settings at the end of the signal chain, which got me thinking, maybe Line 6 picked up on that and added a randomizer of some sort to create the effect natively to the amp models. 

Anyway, I thought it sounded really great. At first I thought it was because I was playing with the new double track effect, but it seemed to be there with or without it. And, since "fizz" or "squirliness," the way I conceive them, seems to be caused by any constant presence of a high pitched anomaly in the output, it would stand to reason that randomizing some feature of the output has a chance of getting rid of it. (For the record, I've never been certain about ever having heard these phenomena with the Helix, but have noticed it more in the same way you think you see the sailboat in one of those "magic eye" posters before you actually figure out how to do it.)

So, could the variation you found in the 2.30 be due to something like that? I imagine the answer is that it could be due to a thousand factors.But, I would be interested if you could re-run the experiment you did, again, on the 2.21 firmware and see if there is more or less variation. Would it also make a difference if you eliminated as many variables as possible? For example, create a preset with just an amp block and turn the Ripple and Hum parameters down to zero. I would suggest just a preamp, but the effect, if it exists, might be in the power amp section. 

Or I guess someone from Line 6 can just tell us. Anyway, thanks in advance if you can do this. 

[jbuhajla]

it might be a new feature written into the code, some kind of randomization. 

Maybe their modeling is so accurate that the algorithms for the modeled components are effected by temperature just like their analog counterpart. That would be weird...

[tourultimate]

Has anybody from line6 confirmed or denied the existence of squirrels?

[rzumwalt]

Maybe their modeling is so accurate that the algorithms for the modeled components are effected by temperature just like their analog counterpart. That would be weird...

Ha. Yeah, and if you whack it on it's side you can hear the springs in the reverb tank shake.

[Doug6String]

Has anybody from line6 confirmed or denied the existence of squirrels?

I was a fizz sufferer early this year when I got my rack and this forum quickly fixed me and my Helix (and Native) have been essential ever since.  In my research on the forum back then (I hope I'm remembering correctly), there was a lot a talk about how the Helix had more frequencies than you get from a guitar amp/speakers and that there wasn't anything wrong with it - you needed to know how to get the tone you want.  Whatever I learned then worked - I never have fizz issues and I love my tone(s).

Of course we still get newbies with the fizz/tone issues and they get directed toward the numerous threads that help, like I did.

I thought this was understood and documented (how to get rid of fizz and get tone), but maybe not?

It's just one data point, but I don't hear any difference in the Helix tone.  I'm using my fav presets now like I was before the update and if there's a difference, it's imperceptible to my ears.

Still an interesting topic!

[cclement]

Has anybody from line6 confirmed or denied the existence of squirrels?

[bonzai01]

I bet most users are perfectly happy with the stock cabs and that if you looked at the percentage of people actually buying IRs, it's probably a minority. Personally, I've bought a few IRs, but I still use the stock cabs for the vast majority of my patches.

It's not that the factory cabs are bad.  But there are some really great OwnHammer IRs out there.

[bonzai01]

Has anybody from line6 confirmed or denied the existence of squirrels?

They exist.  I have some in my back yard.

[MarkJarvis]

I would say that the reported is present in the helix. Not sure if its a fiz or squawk but for sure if you remove all effects

you can hear it clearly :(