Helix and boost pedals

[neuk01642]

Hey all.

 

So I have a Kemper. Purchased after months of deliberation and back and forth between the Helix, Ax2 and KPA.

 

On the whole it's a pretty amazing piece of kit, but I'm running into issues with it due to the nature of what it is.

 

As a profiler, the rigs are a precise recording of an amp at a particular time with particular settings and they sound amazing until you want to change anything or in my case run a boost pedal into them. 

 

The scenario is this. I have a couple of rigs and I have a Fortin Grind and Fortin 33 which I love and love what they do to an amp tone. But I'm not getting it from the Kemper as obviously when I hit the rig with a boost it's no longer the rig as was profiled and as such it looses some of it's charm and I run into all manner of issues with high end fizz and lack of definition and just generally fighting with the rigs to get the tones I want. Not running crazy gain either, a touch over half way on the amps and a touch over half way on the pedals.

 

So my question, how does the Helix take boost pedals in the front? I'm presuming as it's modelling rather than profiling, it's reaction to the push will be different than the Kemper.

 

Be good to hear anyone's experience running boost into the Helix on high gain patches (especially if you're running those boosts and a 5150 or VH4 model).

 

Is it different, will it handle it better or will I experience the same issues tone wise that I'm having with the Kemper?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Matt

[vmoncebaiz]

Helix amp models do behave as expected when boosting them.  The bottom end drops a bit, the amp models are forced into a bit more break up, and it feels more compressed (in the fantastic way it is supposed to).

 

I run Helix at home with two of my favorite ODs strictly as boosts (but I'm only using one of the two at a time).  I use both of the with the gain on the pedal set to zero. The output is always somewhere between 80% and 100%, usually closer to 100%.

 

The MXR Custom Badass Modified OD works out really well with it.  The Mesa Grid Slammer doesn't work as well as it does with physical amps.  Using it with Helix, I have to adjust or add in a secondary gate sometimes.

[neuk01642]

Helix amp models do behave as expected when boosting them.  The bottom end drops a bit, the amp models are forced into a bit more break up, and it feels more compressed (in the fantastic way it is supposed to).

 

I run Helix at home with two of my favorite ODs strictly as boosts (but I'm only using one of the two at a time).  I use both of the with the gain on the pedal set to zero. The output is always somewhere between 80% and 100%, usually closer to 100%.

 

The MXR Custom Badass Modified OD works out really well with it.  The Mesa Grid Slammer doesn't work as well as it does with physical amps.  Using it with Helix, I have to adjust or add in a secondary gate sometimes.

 

Thanks fella.

Intersting. I'm wondering if I'm maybe going to be trading the KPA in on a Helix and a power amp because that's what I wanted to hear.

 

M

[vmoncebaiz]

As a profiler, the rigs are a precise recording of an amp at a particular time with particular settings and they sound amazing until you want to change anything or in my case run a boost pedal into them. 

When setting up the amp before you profile, have the boost engaged and get things where you want them.  Then when you actually start to profile the amp, remove the boost from the chain.  The resulting profile should respond better when you use the physical boost into the Kemper.

 

When making a profile, you can also just profile the engaged boost pedal at the same time as the amp/cab.  They recommend against it but you can do what ever you like, right? It works out ok at best I thought, but you don't have to bring the pedal with you.

 

Not running crazy gain either, a touch over half way on the amps and a touch over half way on the pedals.

 

If you are using distortion from the pedal, it could cause extra fizz and top end, especially through an FR/FR system (it probably causes extra fizz/top end in physical amps too but cabs don't reproduce those frequencies as well as FR/FR, so it's like it's got a natural roll off built in).

[neuk01642]

When setting up the amp before you profile, have the boost engaged and get things where you want them.  Then when you actually start to profile the amp, remove the boost from the chain.  The resulting profile should respond better when you use the physical boost into the Kemper.

 

When making a profile, you can also just profile the engaged boost pedal at the same time as the amp/cab.  They recommend against it but you can do what ever you like, right? It works out ok at best I thought, but you don't have to bring the pedal with you.

 

 

If you are using distortion from the pedal, it could cause extra fizz and top end, especially through an FR/FR system (it probably causes extra fizz/top end in physical amps too but cabs don't reproduce those frequencies as well as FR/FR, so it's like it's got a natural roll off built in).

 

Hey again. Yeah I'm not profiling (God I wish I had the amps to profile... we probably wouldn't be having this conversation to be honest ;oD).

No I'm using purchased profiles and good quality ones as well.

 

And both the Fortin boosts are one knob boost pedals, they're simply pushing the front end with a specific EQ curve, no additional gain. Sorry, that wasn't clear on my original post. I meant the boost is just over half way.

[Joepeggio]

The biggest concern I have is the input headroom. There is the 6db input pad but some pedals boost as much as 20db.

 

It would be nice to have an input meter.

 

Maybe a boost would live better in a loop.?

[vmoncebaiz]

I did not enjoy the factory profiles, and I never got along with profiles made by others, even ones that were purchased from studios or one my favorite producer.  It's the same way you and your favorite guitarist would play the same amp with different EQ and gain settings.  I'm not very good in a studio setting, but the Kemper profiles I made sounded better for me than any of the ones I tried from other people.  If you can even rent or borrow an amp or two, you'd really open up the Kemper's potential.  But if that's not in the cards a modeler might be the way to go.

 

BTW I think that is a huge complement to the Kemper doing exactly what it says it does, and doing it very accurately.

[vmoncebaiz]

The biggest concern I have is the input headroom. There is the 6db input pad but some pedals boost as much as 20db.

 

It would be nice to have an input meter.

 

Maybe a boost would live better in a loop.?

 

I think thats whats happening with my Mesa Grid Slammer.

 

It would be nice to have an input meter.

 

Yes Please. I'd love an input meter or input level knob!

 

Maybe a boost would live better in a loop.?

 

I tried that just for the switching control from Helix.  Gain based effects in the loops can introduce some extra noise on Helix, especially if run into certain Hi-gain amp models.  I just turn the level down on the pedal if things don't sound right.

[neuk01642]

I did not enjoy the factory profiles, and I never got along with profiles made by others, even ones that were purchased from studios or one my favorite producer.  It's the same way you and your favorite guitarist would play the same amp with different EQ and gain settings.  I'm not very good in a studio setting, but the Kemper profiles I made sounded better for me than any of the ones I tried from other people.  If you can even rent or borrow an amp or two, you'd really open up the Kemper's potential.  But if that's not in the cards a modeler might be the way to go.

 

BTW I think that is a huge complement to the Kemper doing exactly what it says it does, and doing it very accurately.

 

Absolutely. I think the KPA, is an amazing amazing tool and I think the feel and tones it reproduces are exceptional.

This is absolutely about the right tool for what I need it to be rather than good or bad. Ideally, I want a locker full of high end boutique high gain tube heads and a selection of 2x12 and 4x12 cabs... but I have a mid terraced house, with a massive mortgage and a wife and two kids so that simply isn't EVER going to happen. So I want something that can behave like and amp (within acknowledged limitations - I'm not naive enough to believe any of the profiler/modeller options are the same as playing the real think. I've had amps), and can do things like react when hit with a boost pedal, and react when the gain is increased... so maybe, maybe I should be looking at a modeller.

[neuk01642]

The biggest concern I have is the input headroom. There is the 6db input pad but some pedals boost as much as 20db.

 

It would be nice to have an input meter.

 

Maybe a boost would live better in a loop.?

Yeah the Grind is 22db and the 33 is 20db of boost. but honestly the magic is in the EQ curve in the pedals. The Grind especially is sensational. I can hear the potential and it's frustrating as hell that I just can't nail the tone I'm looking for. 

 

And a boost in the loop gives a volume increase but that's not what these are for. They're for punishing the pre amp and tightening up the bottom end and adding some rich up mid harmonics. Think 1980s, think TS808 into a cooking Dual Rectifier to stop it being a flubby mess.

[Joepeggio]

I agree when you say putting boost in a loop of an amp.

 

I was referring specifically to the Helix. Putting boost in a Helix loop in front of the amp block. I was just thinking maybe the loop can handle more gain without clipping. I don't know.

[neuk01642]

That’s a good point on using the loop as an insert. Worth thinking about

[MartinDorr]

If you are boosting 20 or more dBs before you get into Helix you are probably close to clipping peaks within Helix.

If you do not have a tone neutral gain control on the pedal (or suspect that it is not tone neutral), just add a gain stage and lower gain to counteract your boost pedal to bring the signal to a 'normal' range and keep the OD produced change in tone.

You can get some of this addressed with a low Channel Volume setting in the Amp model, but you really do not want to run this dial below 2.6 or even 1.3 (-24/36dB) where every 0.1 change makes a crude difference.