Helix Hardware...low input gain?

[yoMuzicMan]

Hi all.

 

I have both a Helix Rack and LT.  Both are at the same firmware 2.30.  I have 2 guitars; A Fender with Seymour Duncan pickups, and a Carvin CT3 with dual humbuckers.  Both guitars have passive pickups.

 

I've always felt my presets were a bit lifeless.  And they sound the same using the Rack or LT.  Whenever I'd find a YouTube video of someone showing how they created a preset I thought sounds great, I would do the same thing.  But mine never sounded as good as theirs...they were noticeably dull.  And the person who created the video claimed no other pedals or post processing were applied.  My signal path is guitar into Helix (Guitar In), and then USB into computer.  I'm monitoring the Helix using a pair of JBL studio monitors.  When watching YouTube videos, the audio also comes out of the same JBL speakers.  The only audio interface in my computer is the Helix.  So I feel my comparison of presets to YouTube videos is fair.

 

A while back, I used to use a software modeler called S-Gear.  My audio interface was by Focusrite.  So my path was guitar into Focusrite, and then USB to computer.  My presets with that setup sounded great!  Since getting the Helix, I've sold my Focusrite and haven't used S-Gear.

 

So today, I decided to use S-Gear again with the Helix as my audio device.  I setup a blank preset on the Helix so the guitar signal is dry.  While using S-Gear, I noticed the input level was very low.  Even if I cranked up the input level in S-Gear to max, it would not reach the optimum range.  I thought the presets in S-Gear, which sounded great before, were now a bit lifeless.  So on the Helix empty preset, I added a boost block and had to crank it to its max value in order for the input level on the S-Gear to reach optimum levels.  Then my S-Gear presets sounded great again.  

 

Next I went back to the Helix and decided to create a new preset from scratch.  I started with a boost block cranked to max but turned off, added a amp/cab, and started playing.  As I played, I would try different default amp/cabs and toggling on/off the cranked boost block.  I prefer clean amps with overdrive pedals in front.  My style is clean with mild to moderate gain.  The preset patch is boost, overdrive, amp/cab.  Using some of the clean Fender or Soldano amps, the difference was night and day.  With the boost on at max, my cleans were beautiful.  And when I engaged an overdrive, the tone was warm with the breakup I'd expect.

 

Another test I did was using Reaper (my DAW).  I created a new track and armed recording so I could monitor the guitar level.  I'm not sure where it is supposed to be, but with an empty Helix preset, the level never gets above -15.  And that is with some heavy strumming which I would never do.  When picking moderately, the max reaches -24.  Once I enable the boost at max level, I can almost reach 0 with heavy strumming.  When picking moderately, the max reaches -12.

 

I've tried a few guitar cables, swapped between my passive pickup guitars, and tried auto or 1M impedance settings in my presets.  I've also performed many factory resets when firmware updates required it.  The only thing that has made a significant difference the boost block set to max at the beginning of a preset.

 

I'm not an expert at this stuff by any means.  I just want to hear what sounds real.  And I know that is subjective.  But for anyone struggling to get a tone they like, maybe you could explore what I've done and share your results.

 

I'd appreciate any comments on this subject.

 

Thanks,

Ron

 

 

[hideout]

Have you checked to see if there's an input pad turned on in the Helix?

[yoMuzicMan]

I've checked.  "Guitar In Pad" is Off and always has been.  Thanks.

 

Should have mentioned that in my original post...    :)

[hideout]

USB Output Gain... if there's such a parameter?  I'm not sure.  The only time I connect via USB is to backup, Edit or Update.

[amsdenj]

You didn’t say (or I didn’t see it) what OS you’re using or the drivers. Its possible that the driver you are using with Helix USB has an input volume control that is turned down.

[MusicLaw]

Have you have tried connecting your JBL Studio Monitors directly to Helix's Main Outputs? If so, how does it sound? If you get results with your JBL's directly connected to Helix's Main Outputs, this would tend to indicate that the issue exists with the USB, Drivers, computer configuration, or possibly Helix's USB out.

[jbuhajla]

Have you have tried connecting your JBL Studio Monitors directly to Helix's Main Outputs? If so, how does it sound? If you get results with your JBL's directly connected to Helix's Main Outputs, this would tend to indicate that the issue exists with the USB, Drivers, computer configuration, or possibly Helix's USB out.

^This

[bobthedog]

The input on my Helix is also very low on every guitar I have tried, I use a clean boost pedal before the input. I must admit I have always wondered if mine is faulty, I have been waiting for them to add in some metering so I could compare it to others!

[christianccpa]

I have the same problem with my Helix LT, even with Helix Native connecting the guitar in my Focusrite saffire pro 56, I've seen videos where with little gain sounds killer, that is not my case, I have 3 guitars with EMG, Fishman Fluence and Seymour duncan and I can't get a good input gain. 
 

I've been thinking that it could be the fault of the latest updates. 

[phil_m]

With an empty preset as described in the first post here, I wouldn't expect the signal coming from the Helix to be all that hot. It should basically be instrument level, which might be as low as -35dB for some guitars. It should basically be like plugging your electric guitar into the mixer channel. Once you start building a preset, you start adding gain to the signal. With 24bit recording, there is no need to record things overly hot. If you're peaking at -12dB, that's plenty of signal. You want to leave headroom in your recording for when you start mixing.

 

As far as samples, a lot of people probably normalize their final tracks after recording. That's what I usually do. All normalizing is doing is finding the highest peak in your recording and finding what the difference is between that and 0.0dB and increasing the level of the track by that much. It just makes it so things on Youtube, Soundcloud or whatever play back at a more consistent volume. I don't really consider normalizing post-processing because all it's doing is increasing the overall level. It's not affecting EQ or adding compression.

[PeterHamm]

As far as samples, a lot of people probably normalize their final tracks after recording. That's what I usually do. All normalizing is doing is finding the highest peak in your recording and finding what the difference is between that and 0.0dB and increasing the level of the track by that much.

 

 

Yup... but... VERY important caveat. When you are recording from your Helix input to a bare track in your DAW in order to use Helix Native, DO NOT NORMALIZE THE RAW GUITAR! It will really mess up your sound.

[potatometer]

This post is several years old, but I'm glad I found it because I thought I was nuts.

 

Same issue.  It seems like some of the commenters here don't understand what's going on.  It's like playing a guitar with extraordinarily weak pickups.  I'm not even talking about a vintage 50s strat with pickups that need to be rewound.  Weaker than that.  It makes everything sound and feel horrible.

 

Let's say I find a YouTube video in which someone is building a preset.  I follow along and do everything they do.  They're playing a strat.  I'm playing a strat.  While I'm sure there's differences between our pickups, they ought to be in the same ballpark.  But they're not.  To get a similar sound I have to put a gain block in front of everything set to a ridiculous 9.5 or 10 db. 

 

This is an input gain issue on the Helix hardware devices.  It's not an output issue.  When I go LT or Stomp into my interface I have VU meters and they're green occasionally peaking to yellow, but at the same time it's like the modeled blocks inside the Helix are starved for signal.  Overdrive and fuzz pedals don't sound right.  Amps don't sound right.  If you just crank levels you get closer, sort of, but not really.  Nothing responds right, plus it gets noisy with single coils. 

 

Guitar pad is off.  Remove the cable going into the HX and plug it into an amp and all is right with the world so there's no issue with the guitars or the cable. 

[zolko60]

Helix max input instrument level is set at +11dBu=0dBFS

IMHO this is good instrument level covering 99% of pickups in the world but may be considered low if the same level is counterclockwise gain position in eg. UA Apollo audio interface.